lklawson
Grandmaster
Even a full load of buck to the chest isn't guaranteed to cause immediate incapacitating damage.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
Close Quarter Knife Throws
- Thread starter Christopher Adamchek
- Start date
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
jobo
Grandmaster
low ° percentage not least because throwing over hand where you might actually develop enough force is extremely difficult to land the knife pointy end first.
CB Jones
Senior Master
30% uncovered also means 70% covered add in you can't aim between the ribs.....just lessens your chances that throwing the knife will be effective. I think there would be much better ways to utilize that weapon.
CB Jones
Senior Master
I dunno...a load of buckshot is pretty devastating inside 20 yards.
lklawson
Grandmaster
lklawson
Grandmaster
Like I said, blades will often glance off of a rib and funnel between them due to that, or will sometimes just flat penetrate or splinter the the edge of the rib.
It's not my favorite or my preference, personally. That said, as I wrote earlier, there are enough thrown melee weapons, ranging from spears to spikes, historically speaking, that it was clearly effective enough to last thousands of years in pretty much every culture I've been able to find.
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
CB Jones
Senior Master
Did you? I missed that link. But I find it hard to believe someone took that hit to the chest with no reaction
What negative? You made an affirmative statement - that the knife would bounce off. Your inability to just admit it was a stupid statement is no more surprising than your inability to support it. But it is sadder.
Of note, however, is that those thrown weapons were designed from the start to BE thrown, and not from 2 feet away from the target.
Spears, javelins, arrows... all very effective ranged weapons. But nobody with any sense would advocate trying to use them as ranged weapons while standing within arms reach of the target.
Well...if you've already got the arrow knocked and the guy rushes you, not much else to do with it. And yes, I'm just being difficult.
In the same vein... if the arrow is "knocked" you're not going to have much luck shooting it.
I'm not arguing that tomahawk throwing is a thing. I've even tried my hand at it (and failed miserably). But that doesn't mean that tactic was how they used it, no matter how logical a tactic it might seem. Kirk answered that part of it already though
I'm still curious if vikings used that tactic, since they're my main interest, but I don't think there's anything out there now to prove that particular tactic was trained.
True. depending on the bow it might be easier just trying to use it as a shield as you reach for a knife.
jobo
Grandmaster
no I said it WOUKDNT penetrate ( which only leaves it with option of bouncing off unless it has levitation powers)
you one the other hand said it would penitrate the abdominal wall, that's after changing your mind from saying it wouldn't, so the burden of proof is yours, as a vid has all ready been posted that ibdecated it wouldn't, it's saved you the bother of admitting you mistake
lklawson
Grandmaster
While there are multiple reliable sources for throwing the tomahawk as part of various forms of combat for tribal indians, this is my favorite reference:
Kirk
Saint Croix Courier, St. Stephen, NB
April 7, 1892
GLIMPSES OF THE PAST
Contributions to the History of Charlotte County and the Border Towns.
XI – THE LAST FIGHT WITH THE MOHAWKS.
Mr. W. Wallace Brown give [sic] us the incidents of the following story, as told to him by an old Passamaquoddy woman named Mollie LaCoot. Apart from its historic interest, it is worthy of record as showing a degree of magnanimity and self-restraint on the part of hostile savages for which we rarely give them credit.
Before the coming of the English, the chief village of the Passamaquoddy tribe was at Quun-os-quam-cook, now St. Andrews. In a time of peace between the Six Nations and the Wabanaki, a Mohawk chief, named Hawk-u-mah-bis, or Snow-shoe-string, accompanied by his son, came to Quun-os-quam-cook; where they were hospitably received and treated as honored guests.
One day the son of the Mohawk chief and the son of the Passamaquoddy chief, while hunting together, killed a wah-be-ne-monks-wes, or white sable. The boys got into a hot dispute over the possession of the game, as it was considered a great honor to kill such a rare animal; and in the quarrel which arose between them the young Mohawk was killed.
The chief of the Passamaquoddies, according to Indian custom, offered his son to the Mohawk chief, to take the place of the boy who had been killed; but the Mohawk would not be appeased, and left for home determined to return and take revenge.
He would seem to have fallen in with a company of his own people; for, as the tradition says, he had been gone only about ten days when, one morning at daybreak, the Mohawks appeared in large numbers, and the woods rang with their war cry, ‘Coo-way-mitt.’
The Passamaquoddies were greatly alarmed, for many of their best warriors were away hunting; so they sent out a man with the loo-good-we-mede-wegon, or flag of truce, (the use of which they had learned from the whites,) to propose that the matter should be settled by single combat.
‘We should not fight and destroy each other,’ they said; ‘for our nations are both becoming less in numbers each year, and if we keep on fighting thus the whites will soon out-number us.’
So they agreed to select a man from each tribe to fight the battle, each to be armed with a knife and a tomahawk.
The Mohawks chose their chief, who is described as tall and slender; and the Passamaquoddies chose a stout young Indian named Lux.
The fight took place early next morning, in an open field at Quun-os-quam-cook, in the presence of both the tribes.
At a given signal, the Mohawk threw his tomahawk. The Passamaquoddy dodged it, and immediately threw his weapon, but failed to hit his antagonist.
Then, rushing upon each other, they clinched in a struggle for life.
They fell to the ground, the Mohawk on top; but the Passamaquoddy soon got the advantage, and plunged his knife into his enemy’s side, and presently sprang to his feet again, waving the scalp of the Mohawk chief.
The Passamaquoddies were wild with joy, and sang their song of victory; while the Mohawks quietly departed, chanting their death song as they went.
Lux, the Passamaquoddy champion, was a grandfather of the late Captain Lewy, after whom Lewy’s island is named. The age of Capt. Lewy at the time of his death would mark the probable date of the occurrence as about one hundred and fifty years ago.
Peace favor your sword,April 7, 1892
GLIMPSES OF THE PAST
Contributions to the History of Charlotte County and the Border Towns.
XI – THE LAST FIGHT WITH THE MOHAWKS.
Mr. W. Wallace Brown give [sic] us the incidents of the following story, as told to him by an old Passamaquoddy woman named Mollie LaCoot. Apart from its historic interest, it is worthy of record as showing a degree of magnanimity and self-restraint on the part of hostile savages for which we rarely give them credit.
Before the coming of the English, the chief village of the Passamaquoddy tribe was at Quun-os-quam-cook, now St. Andrews. In a time of peace between the Six Nations and the Wabanaki, a Mohawk chief, named Hawk-u-mah-bis, or Snow-shoe-string, accompanied by his son, came to Quun-os-quam-cook; where they were hospitably received and treated as honored guests.
One day the son of the Mohawk chief and the son of the Passamaquoddy chief, while hunting together, killed a wah-be-ne-monks-wes, or white sable. The boys got into a hot dispute over the possession of the game, as it was considered a great honor to kill such a rare animal; and in the quarrel which arose between them the young Mohawk was killed.
The chief of the Passamaquoddies, according to Indian custom, offered his son to the Mohawk chief, to take the place of the boy who had been killed; but the Mohawk would not be appeased, and left for home determined to return and take revenge.
He would seem to have fallen in with a company of his own people; for, as the tradition says, he had been gone only about ten days when, one morning at daybreak, the Mohawks appeared in large numbers, and the woods rang with their war cry, ‘Coo-way-mitt.’
The Passamaquoddies were greatly alarmed, for many of their best warriors were away hunting; so they sent out a man with the loo-good-we-mede-wegon, or flag of truce, (the use of which they had learned from the whites,) to propose that the matter should be settled by single combat.
‘We should not fight and destroy each other,’ they said; ‘for our nations are both becoming less in numbers each year, and if we keep on fighting thus the whites will soon out-number us.’
So they agreed to select a man from each tribe to fight the battle, each to be armed with a knife and a tomahawk.
The Mohawks chose their chief, who is described as tall and slender; and the Passamaquoddies chose a stout young Indian named Lux.
The fight took place early next morning, in an open field at Quun-os-quam-cook, in the presence of both the tribes.
At a given signal, the Mohawk threw his tomahawk. The Passamaquoddy dodged it, and immediately threw his weapon, but failed to hit his antagonist.
Then, rushing upon each other, they clinched in a struggle for life.
They fell to the ground, the Mohawk on top; but the Passamaquoddy soon got the advantage, and plunged his knife into his enemy’s side, and presently sprang to his feet again, waving the scalp of the Mohawk chief.
The Passamaquoddies were wild with joy, and sang their song of victory; while the Mohawks quietly departed, chanting their death song as they went.
Lux, the Passamaquoddy champion, was a grandfather of the late Captain Lewy, after whom Lewy’s island is named. The age of Capt. Lewy at the time of his death would mark the probable date of the occurrence as about one hundred and fifty years ago.
Kirk
If you watch the video I posted... the problem doesn't seem to be one of penetration. The thrown knives go through the meat, through the rack of ribs and into the gel. (the Kabar went all the way through the meat, the ribs,the gel, and into the board behind the gel) The thrown ax seemed to cut through the ribs and then well into the gel. However, the video also shows that the problem is hitting the target, with the knife or ax, at the right part of the rotation. So, can it penetrate? Yes. Is it a reliable thing? Depends on the skill and ability of the thrower. I also note that the guy throwing in my video is using a different technique to throw than the OP. A different technique may indeed have different results. However, that is the problem of the operator, not the tool.
OP
OP
Christopher Adamchek
Purple Belt
CB Jones
Senior Master
If there was only several pellets found in him....then he did not take a full load of buckshot in the chest at point blank range.
Inside 5 yards you would have a spread pattern around the size of your fist with over 2,000 ft lbs of energy behind it plus the wading. You hit someone in the chest with that.....they go down.....there is no question of "Did I hit him"
Why doesn't the shooter go down, no question? Doesn't the shooter also get hit with over 2,000 ft lbs of energy? Does taking the energy in the shoulder make that much difference?
lklawson
Grandmaster
Found in his heart. He took the full load to the chest. At least 3 (IIMS) went into the heart. He still had enough adrenaline and oxyginated blood to go play hide and seek in the parking lot (the perp was one of two who stuck up a grocery store - Piggly Wiggly, IMS).
Peace favor your sword,
Kirk
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