Classical v. Reality?

[seasoned]

This is a very interesting thread. any good recommended reading?

When kata were devised, they were the books.

Also there is a lot of talk about Adv beginner stuff and the real advanced stuff. does anyone on here know ther "real" advanced stuff. It seems to just be hinted that there is a whole other level that is known to select few.

Within kata, there are many closed fist blocks, such as rising, middle, and down blocks. Also within kata, there are many turns where it appears you are facing another opponent. These are moves you would never do in sparring or fighting situations, right? By keeping the moves and form the same, but looking a little deeper into the kata, you will find that the blocks manifest into strikes, locks, traps, while the turns contain throws, but the form of the kata stays the same. In essenes, we are indeed practicing a multitude of techniques within the framework of a simple looking kata.

You don't have to list techniques or anything. I am just curious what the difference is or if it is a matter of performing the basics to perfection.

This is where you answer your own question.

 

[Mark Lynn]

Classical vs. Reality?

I believe the classical fighting arts were based in reality for that time frame. What we do though is look at things the way they are now and think this is how it always was, when in fact times have changed, training has changed etc. etc.

Look at the older karate or MA related books and you will see defenses when sitting on the ground on your knees as the Japanese did, now we sit in chairs. The defenses worked back then, but aren't in use today because the situation has changed. But they would have and could have worked. The strikes to joints and to the body looked like the basic blocks and punches in karate (MA in general) and the kicks were simple to the point.

But now we are concerned with sparring and where we chamber the hand in full contact fights. This wasn't what the chambered hand was designed for. In fact the whole let's have full contact/semi contact sparring matches really got started in the latye 1930-early 40's in the Japanese university karate clubs. Which then morphed into the unpadded tournament sparring in the 60's and then into sparring gear/safety gear in the 1970's and boxing type gloves (for kick boxing). With the tournament sparring development of karate (MA in general) new techniques and strategies emerged to deal with a skilled opponent who was another martial artist like you trying to score points.

Which has lead to all sorts of dangerous techniques being taught to lower ranked students in order to win tournaments and reality based self defense has gone out the window for the most part. Think about Hook/Heel kicks, spinning kicks, Roundhouse kicks etc. etc. these are based in tournament or sparring type situations, not someone has grabbed me or threatened me with a knife type of responses.

However what gets shown in the MA books, magazines, movies etc. etc. are these same sparring type techniques but used for self defense related responses, because they look cool and they sell the myth of the self defense related arts. Myth being that they were created with the idea of long distance sparring techniques being used for real self defense.

Mark

 

[Telfer]

Also within kata, there are many turns where it appears you are facing another opponent. These are moves you would never do in sparring or fighting situations, right?

By keeping the moves and form the same, but looking a little deeper into the kata, you will find that the blocks manifest into strikes, locks, traps, while the turns contain throws, but the form of the kata stays the same.

In essenes, we are indeed practicing a multitude of techniques within the framework of a simple looking kata.

So most of time we have a situation where kata contains applications which are unknown to the student, and possibly even the teacher.

And even if they are known they arent practiced with resistance!

One of the mysteries here is how Okinawan kata became so rigid compared to the Chinese forms, from which they are supposedly derived.

They remind me of Michael Jackson's dancing style, which contains a lot of very abrupt stops and starts...very different from the more circular, fluid and continuous Chinese style.

 

[seasoned]

So most of time we have a situation where kata contains applications which are unknown to the student, and possibly even the teacher.

Okinawan GoJu is no different then most old traditional arts, be they Chinese or not. There was a lot of secrecy involved. World war 2 took it's toll on Okinawa and a lot of great GoJu practitioners were lost to the intense bombing, along with the notes and what ever information was written down. A lot of the servicemen that came back from that war had a shell of an art which was introduced to the American public. Because of the dedication of a few of those servicemen, that went back to Okinawa, and befriended, and gained the trust of some of the remaining Masters such as Masanobu Shinjo Sensei and Kinei Nakasone the art of Okinawan GoJu has survived.

And even if they are known they arent practiced with resistance!

A kata is made up of segments of battles, and not just one continuous fight. These segments are extracted out and practiced with a partner, with resistance.

One of the mysteries here is how Okinawan kata became so rigid compared to the Chinese forms, from which they are supposedly derived.

You can't take one aspect of a given art, and assume that the art, as a whole, is that way. Kata is one aspect.

They remind me of Michael Jackson's dancing style, which contains a lot of very abrupt stops and starts...very different from the more circular, fluid and continuous Chinese style.

To know Okinawan GoJu is to understand it, and those that don't understand it, don't know it.

 

[Omar B]

So most of time we have a situation where kata contains applications which are unknown to the student, and possibly even the teacher.
And even if they are known they arent practiced with resistance!
One of the mysteries here is how Okinawan kata became so rigid compared to the Chinese forms, from which they are supposedly derived.
They remind me of Michael Jackson's dancing style, which contains a lot of very abrupt stops and starts...very different from the more circular, fluid and continuous Chinese style.

Yeah man, a lot of teachers are not even aware of the applications of what they are teaching. But much like how Ed Parker obscured some things in his books on purpose, so must the karateka, judoka, hapkidoka (ha, Japanese conjugation of a Korean word!) put in the work him/herself to find the subtleties of the art.

 

[K-man]

So most of time we have a situation where kata contains applications which are unknown to the student, and possibly even the teacher.

And even if they are known they arent practiced with resistance!

One of the mysteries here is how Okinawan kata became so rigid compared to the Chinese forms, from which they are supposedly derived.

They remind me of Michael Jackson's dancing style, which contains a lot of very abrupt stops and starts...very different from the more circular, fluid and continuous Chinese style.

What I was told in the early days was such crap that I can't believe that I bought the story. But that was all they knew then. The sad part is that such a lot of instructors are still saying the same things now.
As for the kata. I know now why the old guys only knew one or two kata. There is a lifetime of study in one kata alone! I doubt whether anybody has the whole story on any one kata, even the top guys, and I say that with total respect for their great knowledge and ability.
As for practising against resistance, we do. We build it up until it is 100% resistance.
Finally, the Okinawan kata is rigid because it is training the basic techniques and the basic stances. What we all practise is Kihon kata and in the tournaments what is performed is Kihon kata. That is the first level, even if you have been performing it for twenty years or more. :asian:

 

[dancingalone]

One of the mysteries here is how Okinawan kata became so rigid compared to the Chinese forms, from which they are supposedly derived.

When I hear someone say this, it's both apparent and unfortunate that they've never been exposed to effective kata practice. So-called "rigid" practice is only for beginners and ironically for tournament showings.

 

[K-man]

When I hear someone say this, it's both apparent and unfortunate that they've never been exposed to effective kata practice. So-called "rigid" practice is only for beginners and ironically for tournament showings.

Care to elaborate? (PM if you prefer)

 

[Telfer]

When I hear someone say this, it's both apparent and unfortunate that they've never been exposed to effective kata practice. So-called "rigid" practice is only for beginners and ironically for tournament showings.

What I mean by 'rigid' is the constant freezing of motion, abrupt stopping and starting, tense immobile stances.

And yes, you are right, I have never seen otherwise, even performed by 9th and 10th dan masters.

 

[dancingalone]

What I mean by 'rigid' is the constant freezing of motion, abrupt stopping and starting, tense immobile stances.

And yes, you are right, I have never seen otherwise, even performed by 9th and 10th dan masters.

So many things wrong with what you just said, but I won't bother. Reading your posts on this thread, it's obvious you're more interested in playing the part of a troll rather than having genuine interest in how traditional martial artists train to fight.

There's more than one way to skin a cat, so stick to what you're comfortable then.