Cindy Sheehan

[Cryozombie]

It's important to understand that while Casey Sheehan took his military oaths when he entered service and died doing his duty, his mother did not take those same oaths. President Bush is supposed to be accountable to the citizens of this country, including Mrs. Sheehan. She has every right to want to know the truth, as do we all. As citizens, we have every right to demand an accounting from Mr. Bush. The last time I checked, Mrs. Sheehan WAS an U.S. Citizen. Does her son's service somehow restrict her from exercising her rights as a citizen? The conversatives apparently believe that.

I do have reservations about the way she's going about this, however. I don't see that Mr. Bush has any obligation to explain himself and his "reasoning" to her in person.

The conservative insinuations and insults against Mrs. Sheehan are typically disgusting and beneath dignity. But par for the course in terms of conservative political tactics. You can see plenty of examples of this nastiness even in this very thread. Every time I believe the conservatives can't get any lower, they prove me wrong.

First of all... Let me start by saying, again... I AM NOT A CONSERVATIVE.

I may seem that way on these type of issues, but that may be because MY opinion and belief on THESE issues. I suppose when I start talking about a womans right to have an abortion and the stupidity of damn conservative viewpoint on that, I'll be a Lib too. Whatever.

Second... I'm sorry... BUT. Not You, I, nor Michaeledward have any right to march up to the president and demand an explanation of WHY we are in Iraq. Unfortunate as it was that her son died, niether does she. PERIOD. BECAUSE THATS NOT HOW IT WORKS, FRIENDS.

Lessee, did the parents of the Rangers killed in Mogadishu deserve a special audience with the president and an explaination why we were involved in a kidnapping attempt under the watchful eye of President Clinton?

Short answer, No.

People. I understand that there is a beleif that we are over there to steal oil... some vast conspiracy that started with a "lie" about WMD. (I highlight lie because as screwed up as our administration is, I would NOT be supprised if they really DID believe they were there, especially after we sold them to them when they were "allies".) I understand that many of you TRUELY BELIEVE with all your heart and soul that the election was rigged, and Bush isnt our lawful president.

I don't know about any of that. What I know is that this presidency, in terms of warring, fighting, police action etc etc... is not much different than any other in my lifetime... in that American soldiers were off someplace else fighting someone elses war and dying for it. 'Nam, Grenada, Panama, Yugoslavia, Mogadishu, the first gulf War...

Honestly, I can agree we shouldnt be doing it... but I can't agree that this woman is somehow special because her son died. A lot of parents have lost their sons and daughters in service to this nation.

 

[michaeledward]

I am not so sure that any one on this thread has stated that they believe Ms. Sheehan has the right to an audience with the President for any reason.

I am fairly certian, however, that Ms. Sheehan has the right to ask the question she is asking, to whomever will listen. She also has the right to camp out in Crawford and be a general pain in the *** to the President.

Don't know that anyone has suggested anything other.

 

[Cryozombie]

She also has the right to camp out in Crawford and be a general pain in the *** to the President. .

Does she? Or are we very politically side-stepping around stalking laws? Thats not a challenge, BTW, Im curious how it compares.

Don't know that anyone has suggested anything other.

Maybe not... its definatly the TONE I picked up on in this thread. I could be wrong... but thats how it read to me.

 

[Tgace]

Theres been plenty of people implying that the President should give this woman a private audience.

 

[michaeledward]

Does she? Or are we very politically side-stepping around stalking laws? Thats not a challenge, BTW, Im curious how it compares.

Maybe not... its definatly the TONE I picked up on in this thread. I could be wrong... but thats how it read to me.

Actually, I do not know where 'Camp Casey' has been established. If she is tresspassing on someone's property, then perhaps there is a legal challenge there. Also, can one actually be 'stalking' when they are camped out with scores of supporters, and only approaching television cameras? Or, do you actually have to approach the subject?

As for TONE ... you know how that goes in cyberspace ... several have stated there are 'reservations' about how Ms. Sheehan is going about her campaign. I would think actual text would carry more weight than inferred or implied tone.

 

[Tgace]

Casey Sheehan gave everything for his country. Cindy Sheehan gave her son to this country. Now, after the stated cause of this war has changed again and again, Cindy wants to ask the president face to face what noble cause her son died for. I think she's entitled to an audience.

Theres one

 

[Sapper6]

Actually, I do not know where 'Camp Casey' has been established...

Actually, Camp Casey is located in Tongduchon, Korea approximately forty miles North of Seoul. Camp Casey spans nearly 3500 acres and is occupied by some 6300 military and 2500 civilians. Camp Casey was named and officially dedicated in 1952 in memory of Maj. Hugh B. Casey, who died in a plane crash here in December 1951. Casey arrived in Korea in 1951, a Second Lieutenant, and served as a company commander in the 2nd Battalion, 7th Infantry Regiment, 3rd Infantry Division. He received the Distinguished Service Cross, the nation's second highest award for valor, for heroism at the Hungnam beachhead. According to Lt. Col. Roy E. Lewis, then executive officer of the 7th Infantry Division Support Command, Casey was ordered to have his company in a blocking position west of Hungnam by sunrise the next morning. He had to cross a mountain pass with two to three feet of snow in it. Forcemarching his men, he had them only halfway to the objective by sunrise. He pressed forward, refusing to give up despite the fatigue and hopelessness of the mission. He didn't stop marching until ordered to. To Lewis, this was what made Casey an extraordinary soldier. "He gave little thought to himself," Lewis said. Later, while he was serving as senior aide to Maj. Gen. Williston B. Palmer, then Commanding General of the 3rd Inf. Div., Casey's light observation plane was hit by ground fire. The plane crashed just west of the present 2nd Infantry Division headquarters. A white wooden cross was erected to mark the spot; it was replaced in 1960 by a white concrete cross. "Lest we forget," the cross and camp now mark the memory of a brave man.

Camp Casey is one of the forty-two camps north of Seoul authorized Hardship Duty Pay of $150 per month as of 01 January 2001. The Hardship Duty Pay is paid to troops who are permanently assigned to areas where it is authorized or who serve 30 consecutive days of temporary duty in those areas. Several factors are considered in determining whether a location qualified for the pay: climate, physical and social isolation, sanitation, disease, medical facilities, housing, food, recreational and community facilities, political violence, harassment and crime. The extra pay provides meaningful financial recognition to troops assigned in areas where living conditions are substantially below US standards.

Family Quarters are not available. All but 76 of the Division's soldiers serve one-year unaccompanied tours. All soldiers live in on-post quarters. See the quality of life and unit-specific pages for more information on recent barracks upgrades and construction projects.


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/camp-casey.htm

 

[michaeledward]

Sapper6 .. thank you for that information.

I am not the person who labeled Ms. Sheehan's encampment 'Camp Casey'. It is a term that has been used on Weblogs, and I assume in other media reports.

By listing your facts, in the manner you have, it certainly seems you are being disrespectful of young Mr. Sheehan's service. I'm certain, you don't intend that.

 

[Rick Wade]

If this is true, then why make any oaths that are not, "I promise to serve without reservation, without question, the will of my leaders..."

There is a higher purpose then that in all public service.

Here is the actual oath of enlistment.

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The part in bold is the part you are thinking of we are expected to question orders that are unlawful.

V/R

Rick

P. S.


When I went over there I told all of my family no matter what your beliefs are don't make a spectical of my memory If something should happen to me. That is exactly what she is doing to her son, she is tarnishing her son's memory and on another note he wasn't a kid as she said he was I know I am not.

V/R

Rick

 

[michaeledward]

Rick,

Do you really believe this mother's actions are tarnishing the memory of her son?

Why?

What specifically about her actions do you think are affecting the memory of her son?

Are you willing to think less of this soldier because his mother wants to know why he died? A soldier who followed orders. A soldier who served where his Commander-in-Chief told him to serve. A solder who obeyed the orders of those officers appointed above him.

Is that how we 'Support Our Troops'?

Each day to facilitate the process by which the United States washes her hands of Vietnam someone has to give up his life so that the United States doesn't have to admit something that the entire world already knows, so that we can't say that we have made a mistake. Someone has to die so that President Nixon won't be, and these are his words, "the first President to lose a war."
We are asking Americans to think about that because how do you ask a man to be the last man to die in Vietnam? How do you ask a man to be the last man to die for a mistake?

 

[Sapper6]

Sapper6 .. thank you for that information...

...By listing your facts, in the manner you have, it certainly seems you are being disrespectful of young Mr. Sheehan's service. I'm certain, you don't intend that.

disrespect? not in the least. that's where camp casey is established.

 

[Cryozombie]

Are you willing to think less of this soldier because his mother wants to know why he died? A soldier who followed orders. A soldier who served where his Commander-in-Chief told him to serve. A solder who obeyed the orders of those officers appointed above him.

Is that how we 'Support Our Troops'?

If by "Think Less of" you mean we are more focused on the actions of the Mother and less and less on the Sacrifice of the son... then yes.

 

[Rick Wade]

Rick,

Do you really believe this mother's actions are tarnishing the memory of her son?

NO

Why?

Because what she does now has no actual bearing on what her son did his actions were of his own free will and he acted with honor in the line of dudty suporting the U.S. ARMY.

What specifically about her actions do you think are affecting the memory of her son?

Because now when ever people hear the name Casey Sheehan they don't think about a great American they think oh that poor mother lost her son. They don't ever think this guy gave the ultimate sacrifice. She has totally spun this thing and now it is all about her. If she felt so bitter why didn't she ask the questions to the president when she had the chance some 14 months ago?

Are you willing to think less of this soldier because his mother wants to know why he died? A soldier who followed orders. A soldier who served where his Commander-in-Chief told him to serve. A solder who obeyed the orders of those officers appointed above him.

Michael you answered your own question sir. He died following orders. However I will disagree with you in the fact No one told him to serve he volunteered to serve just like I did.

Is that how we 'Support Our Troops'?

I support our troops every day by making sure that they have the things that they need to stay as safe as they can. I exchange emails with them all the time. These are hard workingmen and women working 12 -15 hour days in 120 - 130 degree heat. It sucks I know. And with all that going on the worst thing that sucks is when you do get an hour down time to watch TV or something you see. CNN or some other News station WE are loosing the War and the next story Cindy Sheehan still in Crawford TX.

She should be at home taking care of her mother next she will be suing the hospital for negligent care.

Here is the bottom line. I feel for Mrs. Sheehan I have never lost a son. But is has got to be hard her marriage is falling apart and I sure she has a job. She needs to take care of her life and get on with her life and start living again. She probably needs some professional Dr. Phil help.


Thanks for the interesting discussion points Michael I look forward to your rebuttal. However I think with me being in the military for 17 years now and judging from your past topics we will probably have to agree to disagree.? :idunno:

 

[michaeledward]

Rick,

I am not sure that we disagree.

But, your PostScript on post 89 indicated that you did believe Ms. Sheehan was dis-honoring her son's service.

I do not know who this whole affair is 'about'. I don't think that Ms. Sheehan is camped out in the desert of Texas to bring attention to herself. She has stated that she would like to know why our solders are dying in Iraq. There have been many reasons given by the Administration; when one proves false, a new reason rises to the fore. (WMD, Hussein-binLaden terrorism link, Hussein a brutal dictator, spreading democracy)

There has been an awful lot of 'spin' about what Ms. Sheehan's intentions are for this little expedition. Ms. Sheehan has not called for the immediate withdrawl of troops from Iraq. That, of course, has not stopped the President of the United States from insinuating, from his bully puplit, that this is her goal.

No doubt, there are many challenges in her life, as there are in all of our lives. She is coping with them the best way that she knows how, as we all do. But, in some of the statements on this thread, there seems to be a great deal of disrespect toward the fallen soldier, because the mother is publicly questioning the President and his Administration's policies.

 

[Rick Wade]

Micheal I tend to agree with you on the Sheehan Issue

I mean no disrespect to her son: However I think she is going about honoring him the wrong way.

However As much as I hate to say it (oh the pain, LOL) I see what you are saying with the changing agenda. But that said I think you never know exactly what you are getting into until you are in it. Kinda like the "grass is greener on the other side" thing. We had no idea what Sadam was doing to his people. So once we take him out do we puul out and leave the country in caos? No we help them establish a new government and get them back on their feet.

V/R

Rick

 

[sgtmac_46]

It's important to understand that while Casey Sheehan took his military oaths when he entered service and died doing his duty, his mother did not take those same oaths. President Bush is supposed to be accountable to the citizens of this country, including Mrs. Sheehan. She has every right to want to know the truth, as do we all. As citizens, we have every right to demand an accounting from Mr. Bush. The last time I checked, Mrs. Sheehan WAS an U.S. Citizen. Does her son's service somehow restrict her from exercising her rights as a citizen? The conversatives apparently believe that.

I do have reservations about the way she's going about this, however. I don't see that Mr. Bush has any obligation to explain himself and his "reasoning" to her in person.

The conservative insinuations and insults against Mrs. Sheehan are typically disgusting and beneath dignity. But par for the course in terms of conservative political tactics. You can see plenty of examples of this nastiness even in this very thread. Every time I believe the conservatives can't get any lower, they prove me wrong.

She has the right to ask. I'm saying President Bush has no obligation to give her a direct answer. Mrs. Sheehan is one citizen among millions. We, as a political body, have a right to be heard. Mrs. Sheehan has no more or less of a right to individual audience with the President of the United States than I do, or anyone else for that matter. If you want to give the fact that her son sacrificed his life for this country, then she has no more or less of a right to an individual audience with the President than any other mother who has ever lost her son in the service of this country. The whole thing is a publicity stunt by Ms. Sheehan and her handlers. She has the right to do it, but I doubt her son would be proud of his mother for what she is doing in his name.

So please save the crass "The conservatives are trying to deny her, blah blah blah." She has lost her son, but many other mothers have two in nearly identical circumstances. I want to know why you think this one is of such greater importance than any other mother who has lost her son in combat? I'll answer that, simply because you agree with what she is saying politically. If she were saying the opposite, as many other military parents who have lost sons and daughters have been, you'd simply call her a tool of the Bush administration.

I don't fault Ms. Sheehan, she deserves our sympathy for losing her son. I fault the political hacks who are using Ms. Sheehan as a political tool. Shame on them.

 

[Tgace]

Shes a media celebrity. The whole world knows who she is now. If anybody believes that her ego has NO bearing whatsoever here is kidding themselves.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Shes a media celebrity. The whole world knows who she is now. If anybody believes that her ego has NO bearing whatsoever here is kidding themselves.

Her ego aside, she's wittingly or not become a tool for a political fringe. They've invested a lot of time and money in to making her their poster child. That's just how these things are done.

 

[Tgace]

It leads me to wonder, dont all these leftist organizations and pundits see that by being so publicly involved that they actually start hurting the cause. I personally would have had much more respect for the woman if she had eschewed help from MoveOn, Moore, etc.

 

[sgtmac_46]

It leads me to wonder, dont all these leftist organizations and pundits see that by being so publicly involved that they actually start hurting the cause. I personally would have had much more respect for the woman if she had eschewed help from MoveOn, Moore, etc.

It can help their cause, but not when it becomes blatantly contrived as this incident has become. I actually think most Americans, many of whom would otherwise be sympathetic to Ms. Sheehan's cause, are a little irritated by this incident. It's just my opinion.