christianity is not monotheistic.

[Big Don]

as i said in my OP, which i am getting really tired of repeating to you, these thoughts were based largely on discussion with INDIVIDUAL christians. what individuals believe is not always based on the authority of their sacred texts.

I have yet to meet any Christian individuals who espouse this belief that Satan is a god.

why is satan not regarded as a deity when other religions have non-worshipped, evil gods?

Because, as stated scripture never ever at any point, in any way, shape, or form calls him a god.

at what point is an entity considered a god & not another form of supernatural being?

why is the christian 3-in-1 god considered truly 1 while gods such as the hindu shiva-vishnu-brahma considered 3, thereby making that religion polytheistic?

Because, in the New Testament (scripture) that is what is said. I would guess, in Hindu theology, there is a different statement or two.

are the classifications of mono/polytheistic accurate? are they useful?

not when you intentionally misinterpret them

i believe this is the second time you've insulted me in this thread. it not only shows that you don't understand what we're talking about, it also demonstrates a weak character.

jf

Calling your opinion foolish, is just that. It isn't calling you foolish. Had I wanted to call you a fool, I would have.

 

[jks9199]

If I follow Jarrod's point properly, he's not suggesting that the TEACHINGS of Christianity support the idea that Satan is equal with God -- but that some people accord him equality in practice when they attribute bad events to him just as they attribute good to God. Interesting idea... and worth examining in your own life, if you happen to be Christian.

Not being a Christian I've always wondered about the worship of the Virgin Mary and how she's seen as as well as the Christian saints. people pray to her and the saints, are they seen as gods ( perhaps with a small g) or why else pray to them? the worship of the Virgin mary confuses me somewhat because it's often accompanied by a lack of respect in general for women ie women priests/vicars been banned, women full of sin etc

I'm not sure about Satan tbh, I don't honestly think he/it exists. I suppose though you have to have opposites. My idea of hell though would be the same as the Norsemen...a frozen waste, I hate the cold with a passion, a hot hell would be fantastic!

I think btw the OP is a good one,I don't think however Jarrod is stating his beliefs as such, he's questioning beliefs and asking questions, to my mind a good thing. I can explain my beliefs and not be insulted or feel the need to result to insults just because they aren't shared or understood by others.

Personally I like learning things! Which I have already by reading this thread!

In Catholicism, we revere and adore the Virgin Mary and the saints for their holy lives. We don't worship them -- though the distinction can seem minor. When we pray to Mary or a saint, we ask their intercession, not for them to cause something directly. One way I've explained it before is to compare it with asking someone for a favor. Let's say you want concert tickets, and you happen to know someone who knows the band. You might ask your buddy to ask the band for tickets, right? Your buddy isn't really getting you the tickets, and you could go directly to the band -- but the chances that you'll get your tickets goes up if your buddy who's their friend asks on your behalf, right? Well, scripture teaches us that Jesus Christ never refused his mother (note the wedding at Canaa, for example), so if we want something, we might ask Mary to intercede on our behalf.

 

[Big Don]

In Catholicism, we revere and adore the Virgin Mary and the saints for their holy lives. We don't worship them -- though the distinction can seem minor. When we pray to Mary or a saint, we ask their intercession, not for them to cause something directly. One way I've explained it before is to compare it with asking someone for a favor. Let's say you want concert tickets, and you happen to know someone who knows the band. You might ask your buddy to ask the band for tickets, right? Your buddy isn't really getting you the tickets, and you could go directly to the band -- but the chances that you'll get your tickets goes up if your buddy who's their friend asks on your behalf, right? Well, scripture teaches us that Jesus Christ never refused his mother (note the wedding at Canaa, for example), so if we want something, we might ask Mary to intercede on our behalf.

That is the best explanation of that I've ever seen.

 

[GBlues]

this isn't intended as a dig at christians as a whole, but it is just something i've noticed about CERTAIN christians. i'm not even sure it applies to denominations. it's just an observation i've made based on individual talks with various believers

often it seems that when something a believer approves of happens, god is credited. but when something disapproved of happens, satan is blamed. there is seldom an established criterea for determining if an action was that of god or satan, & it's worth noting that this is a distinctly different roll for satan than is played by him throughout the first testament. in early parts of the bible, satan is simply "the adversary", a being sent to tempt us & test our faith in god, but not personally interested in inspiring us to do evil. (see "the origin of satan" by elaine pagels if you are interested).

so since he is now set up as the opposite or at least enemy of god, doesn't that make him "a" god? many polytheistic religions have or have had deities that were malicious, but they were still gods in their own right.

satan has his own realm, his own supernatural followers (demons), & according to many in popular thought, at least some ability to operate outside of the wishes of god, a supposedly omnipotent being. i think this classifies him as a god, & therefore christianity as a polytheistic religion, even if the "dark god" is not to be worshipped or revered.

i want to state one more time that this post is in no way a judgement on christianity. it's just an observation on my part.

EDIT: also wanted to add that the ten commandments don't state that there is only one god. only that believers are not to worship another god besides the god of isreal.

jf

Where to begin....LOL! Those are all good points, and many that I've read on here also are very good comments thank you all. This has been a very interesting thread. Let me try to explain, and attempt to answer your question. Been awhile since I've been to church.

Ok, Satan is a god. But not the way that your thinking. And let me try to explain so you'll have to follow closely. You may or may not have read the story of noah. But basically the world was evil during that time. Now here is the thing, what starts the flood of noah, is the Nephilim. Now the Nephilim are the offspring, of the sons of god, (ie. the angels), and human women. Now the bible does specifically state that these were the the men of old, in other words these nephilim were our hercules, Odysseyes, etc... there fathers later would be known as Zeus, and other such gods. Satan was one of those angels that would have done such a thing. Probably was known and or treated like a god. However, and this is the key, no creation can ever be equal to, or more powerful than it's creator. If you created a coffe cup, it is never going to be a human, in no sense ever, can not physically happen. The same with Satan, and the demons, it is not so much anymore in my belief that they want to be gods any longer, as it is they want revenge. When god created the flood and killed the Nephilim he killed there children, period. If you don't think that, that isn't going to piss somebody off, I don't know what will. There whole goal, is to try and kill us, because we are the creation of god, and that is their revenge. They hate us, because god saved one family, and it was a human family. Yes, Satan wants to be worshipped like a god, but only because he is evil, and has nothing but evil in his heart. YOu know that the bible states that the devil and the demons have been cut off from all enlightenment. They can not learn anything new. THey are very powerful compared to humans, but even humans have physically battled with angelic beings and held there own. They did not win, but they did give them a run for there money.

It is also a false belief that they are to be considered gods or lesser dieties. The same is true of Jesus, many religions believe that he is god. However, nowhere in the bible did he call himself such, as a matter of fact whenever asked Jesus often said, " I am god's son". The belief in Jesus and god being one in the same, comes from a passage where Jesus says, " I and the Father are one. If you have seen me then you have seen the father." Now this passage gets misconstrued as Jesus saying that he is god. This is not a true representation, when considered with the rest of Jesus's lifetime that he referred to being the son. Furthermore, it is said that, "God loved the earth so much that he gave his only begotten son." Now consider this, when people would bow down at Jesus' feet and try to worship him, he would tell them, " Stand up, do not do that, for there is only one who is deserving of your worship, and that is your heavenly father." Jesus when he said, " I and the father are one", was not saying that he and god are the same. No rather he was referring to himself being a direct representation of his father. You meet a man, and learn that he is a good man, an honest man. Your first thoughts most generally are wow, he must have had good parents. They raised him right. So when you meet this man, you are seeing a direct representation of his parents. So the same is true with Jesus, you are seeing his only parent, because he only has one, GOD. So yeah, in thinking, morals, ethics, beliefs, Jesus and God are one, but they are not the same peson. To take this one step further, the bible does say that god only has one son, Jesus. So even Satan is not a god, or even a lesser diety. He was at one time one of god's most faithful servants. Basically a worker. Let's say upper middle class.

So now I want to discuss the trinity. The father, the son and the holy ghost. In many bibles it does not refer to the the holy ghost as such, but as gods active force. Interesting. If jesus is one but seperate, because he is a direct reflection of god, then what is the holy ghost? Is it one? I would say yes. I believe personally that the holy ghost is god's chi, his inner strength, it's what he uses and that allows him to do what he does. Without it he would be powerless.

Now, the idea of hell, for another poster. THe history channel did another documentary on this and it was very well, done. THe catholic church in the middle ages began to lose alot of perisheners. So they therefore needed away to get them back, and so created hell. THis is historical fact, as found by the history channel. Had nothing to do with the bible at all whatsoever, as a matter of fact, nowhere in the bible does it say, you will go to hell if your bad. Simple.

ANd to finish this off, the only powers that Satan has, are the ones that god allows him to have. THe only authority that he has, are the ones that god allows him to have. HE has no power without god, to worship such a being would be like trying to worship a rock, or statue or anything that is considered lifeless. I hope that I answered your question or gave you some food for thought. Very interesting thread, and have enjoyed reading and writing in it.:asian:

 

[GBlues]

If I follow Jarrod's point properly, he's not suggesting that the TEACHINGS of Christianity support the idea that Satan is equal with God -- but that some people accord him equality in practice when they attribute bad events to him just as they attribute good to God. Interesting idea... and worth examining in your own life, if you happen to be Christian.



In Catholicism, we revere and adore the Virgin Mary and the saints for their holy lives. We don't worship them -- though the distinction can seem minor. When we pray to Mary or a saint, we ask their intercession, not for them to cause something directly. One way I've explained it before is to compare it with asking someone for a favor. Let's say you want concert tickets, and you happen to know someone who knows the band. You might ask your buddy to ask the band for tickets, right? Your buddy isn't really getting you the tickets, and you could go directly to the band -- but the chances that you'll get your tickets goes up if your buddy who's their friend asks on your behalf, right? Well, scripture teaches us that Jesus Christ never refused his mother (note the wedding at Canaa, for example), so if we want something, we might ask Mary to intercede on our behalf.

Then why does the bible even state that you may only pray to one god. And Jesus stated that," No one may go to the father except through me." If your prayer is to be heard, should you not pray in Jesus name, as opposed to a dead womans? Some one who does not have the authority to go to god for you. She scripturally, can not intercede. She is worshipped like a god in catholicism, as is Jesus. So therefore, how can she or any other saint do anything for you, other than pull away from god. Because in essence you are praying to a god. What you view as a god. To pray to something is to worship it. When you pray to god, you go through his son first, and it is explicitly stated that, that is the only way to get your prayers heard. Just my opinion. :asian:

 

[elder999]

Then why does the bible even state that you may only pray to one god. And Jesus stated that," No one may go to the father except through me." If your prayer is to be heard, should you not pray in Jesus name, as opposed to a dead womans? Some one who does not have the authority to go to god for you. She scripturally, can not intercede. She is worshipped like a god in catholicism, as is Jesus. So therefore, how can she or any other saint do anything for you, other than pull away from god. Because in essence you are praying to a god. What you view as a god. To pray to something is to worship it. When you pray to god, you go through his son first, and it is explicitly stated that, that is the only way to get your prayers heard. Just my opinion. :asian:

And yet, when Jesus was asked, Teach us to pray, he said, "Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come.Your will be done," not "Me, who is here, hallowed be my name, my kingdom...etc." It's altogether likely, examining the source documents, that what Jesus meant by saying "No one may go to the father except through me," is that one had to follow his teachings, not pray to him or worship him.

The Virgin Mary thing gets interesting, in that around the world she has taken the place of the local mother deity. The best example of this is the Virgin of Guadalupe, which was in fact a sort of spiritual con on the part of the local Indians who had been forcibly converted to Catholicism/Christianity by the Spanish. A close examination of the story of the VIrgin of Guadelupe and the accompanying symbolism reveals a thin disguise for the Aztec godess Tonantzin. The bishop of Mexico City at the time of the "miracle" of the Virgin of Guadalupe wrote to the Vatican with no small amount of concern about this godess worship, but the Vatican's attitude was pretty much, "Hey, they're praying to the Holy Mother, it's all good....." :lfao:

 

[exile]

Great, productive discussion, folks!

Please let's continue it as it's been going for the last little while, with good back-and-forth and no snipes or insinuations aimed at other participants. Clearly it's a very complex, mulitfaceted story, with lots of scope for civil debate and disagreement....

 

[MA-Caver]

It is difficult to maintain and prolong a theological discussion these days because people hate having their trees shaken while they're in them. Having a nice comfortable nest up there in their beautiful tree (beliefs) and someone down below (ideologically speaking) shaking it threatening to make them fall out.
Jarrod and Don you guys have done well thus far but I feel you're pushing the envelope in maintaining civility in this discussion. Please remember nobody right and nobody is wrong when it comes to theology. It's just beliefs and ideas, opinions and theories. A more careful choice of wording is needed and if someone's opinion, idea, beliefs are shaking your tree ... wait for the vibrations to stop before replying and state your counter argument-- err discussion... Our trees are going to be shaken no matter what whenever our beliefs, ideas, opinions are challenged...whether they be in politics, religion, martial arts or who was the greatest rock and roll band of all time, but how we react to them is still our choice. :asian:


My own take on the discussion.

Christianity is monotheistic. There is one God but three separate beings acting as one or acting towards one purpose. Satan is NOT a god because he cannot create. Christ is NOT a god for the same reason and neither is the Holy Spirit/Ghost. The Father IS a God because he can create, he is the head, CEO the author and finisher of it all... far as Christianity is concerned anyway
What Sukerkin and Elder stated about Satan's origins I also hold true. However Elder... there was a line in the movie City of Angels where one (former) angel was speaking to one who was struggling with becoming mortal because he was in love with mortal, "....don't you think He gave us (angels) the same gift that he gave them (humans)? ... Free will brother, free will."
Angels in heaven, nirvana or wherever you want to call it still have their free will to exercise. Ironically they choose to obey the will of God/The Father. Satan/Lucifer had this same free will and chose to exercise it in contradiction to everyone else and managed to influence (which is his MO) the third that followed him. A great war ensued, the third were defeated and cast out and stripped of all their former glory.
This was pre Genesis ... Now God/The Father looks at all who remains and wonders if it will happen again. Ok, create an place where they can be tested (our known universe being earth and all things celestial), creates man and the remaining 2/3rds take their turns assuming human forms/bodies and living out their lives until death and the souls with the knowledge and experience are returned to be judged worthy enough to remain with the Father or to be cast out with Satan and his original band of cronies.
Satan of course is going to try and get as many as he can to keep rebelling against God/The Father so he'll influence people to do what we call evil.
(ok ranting)...

The way I've seen it is that there are three entities working together as one. Dunno about other faiths/religions and their status. Muslim is definitely monotheistic ... but I would entertain the idea that the judism God and Allah are probably one and the same since both claim Abraham (Issac's father) being one of their own.

I did have the pleasure once of being blessed by one of the Hindu Gods/Goddesses. At Zion's National Park Utah where a group were worshipping an elderly woman who they (told me) said was their Goddess (I regretfully forget the name) and she had come to America to bless the faithful. A gentleman asked me if I would like to be blessed by the Goddess... :idunno: I figured why not, it wasn't as if I were worshipping her just being polite...
A very unique and spiritual experience... since she spoke to me in Hindi yet I understood every word... and I never studied the language.

 

[punisher73]

oh i'm sorry i must have misunderstood your "reasoning".

where in the bible does it directly state that satan is not a god? i'm not saying it doesn't, but i can't think of a spot off of the top of my head.

also i'm not really sure where you're going with your judaism/islam "point". they are clearly different religions though they do worship the same god.

i'm happy to discuss this with you, but please try to answer the points i raised in my OP. i.e., why is satan accorded so much power if he's not a deity.

jf

Satan's equivalent is Michael, the archangel. He is NOT equal to God, the Bible makes it clear that Satan was an angel who rebelled against God and took 1/3 of the angels with him. Sorry, don't have my Bible right with me to give the verses etc.

 

[Tez3]

If I follow Jarrod's point properly, he's not suggesting that the TEACHINGS of Christianity support the idea that Satan is equal with God -- but that some people accord him equality in practice when they attribute bad events to him just as they attribute good to God. Interesting idea... and worth examining in your own life, if you happen to be Christian.



In Catholicism, we revere and adore the Virgin Mary and the saints for their holy lives. We don't worship them -- though the distinction can seem minor. When we pray to Mary or a saint, we ask their intercession, not for them to cause something directly. One way I've explained it before is to compare it with asking someone for a favor. Let's say you want concert tickets, and you happen to know someone who knows the band. You might ask your buddy to ask the band for tickets, right? Your buddy isn't really getting you the tickets, and you could go directly to the band -- but the chances that you'll get your tickets goes up if your buddy who's their friend asks on your behalf, right? Well, scripture teaches us that Jesus Christ never refused his mother (note the wedding at Canaa, for example), so if we want something, we might ask Mary to intercede on our behalf.

Ah thank you! should I refrain from saying that as a good Jewish son of course he did as him mother told him lol? I think when you are on the outside of any religion you can know the main tenets of that faith perhaps but not all the side things that people believe and do.

One thing that gets me and I try to stay to avoid are people who convert to a religion, talking to people from other religions they have the same problem with them! I've only met one person who converted to Judaism ( we don't encourage it I wonder if this is why lol) nice person but oh dear me, so enthusiastic, so 'into' everything, they wouldn't shut up lol. You know yourselves that when you grow up in a religion and choose to carry it on, you just sort of know things and follow them, it's always been part of your life but when someone converts they are taught so much ( takes 5 years to become Jewish) that they want to share with you! they make you feel that your faith and knowledge is lacking lol! Bless em! I know of a Jewish man who converted to Catholism, he ended up a bishop, you see what I mean? he just had to take it just that bit further

 

[Tez3]

If we discuss religions as we discuss our martial arts it turns out as an interesting discussion, I like my religion and my martial arts styles, they suit me, they won't suit everyone and discussing other religions and styles doesn't corrupt or interfere with our practices of either. By learning of others styles and religions we educate ourselves and others. We can respect each others beliefs in the same we can respect each others martial arts.

Oh and btw my religion is the right one and my style is the best :lfao:

 

[elder999]

Satan's equivalent is Michael, the archangel. He is NOT equal to God, the Bible makes it clear that Satan was an angel who rebelled against God and took 1/3 of the angels with him. Sorry, don't have my Bible right with me to give the verses etc.

WHere, exactly, does "the Bible make it clear that Satan was an angel who rebelled against God and took 1/3 of the angels with him?"

Nowhere. The Bible is not very clear, when it comes to Satan. There are two references to the fall in the Old Testament, in Isiah and Ezekiel-the Jewish interpretation of these verses makes them metaphors for the fall of ancient kings, while the Christian intepretation makes them have parallel meanings: both about ancient kings AND Satan. In Job, we actually see a conversation and wager between God and Satan, which shows, at the very least, that Satan still had access to the Creator's throne.

Puzzling. :lfao:

Likewise, the statement made a few posts back that Satan is cut off from enlightenment, and that this is "clearly stated in the Bible," is specious-it doesn't say that anywhere, at least, it doesn't say it clearly.


The New Testament is even less clear-though it does make clear that Satan's fall was due to pride.

(BTW, there are several versions of the Bible online, with annotations and various translations)

 

[Cryozombie]

I just want to clarify a point that seems to have been overlooked.

Evil doesn't come from Satan. God Created both and gave mankind a choice. Satan just TEMPS men to do evil.

 

[Sukerkin]

Oh and btw my religion is the right one and my style is the best :lfao:

But ... but ... but ... how can that be? .

It is widely accepted by the survey of one that I've just done in my head that my lack of religion is the correct path and it is eminently clear that MY style is superior to all others :lol:.

Seriously, some very good points coming forth now, ladies and gentlemen. Indeed this discussion is interesting enough for me to think about looking throught the salient parts of various bible translations just to see how the interpretations vary :tup:.

 

[Ray]

Very interesting conversation going on here.

I personally believe that God is the Father of our spirits. That Jesus is a separate being from the Father (but one in purpose).

 

[Tez3]

But ... but ... but ... how can that be? .

It is widely accepted by the survey of one that I've just done in my head that my lack of religion is the correct path and it is eminently clear that MY style is superior to all others :lol:.

Seriously, some very good points coming forth now, ladies and gentlemen. Indeed this discussion is interesting enough for me to think about looking throught the salient parts of various bible translations just to see how the interpretations vary :tup:.

The voices told me I was right, oh no have they lied? :uhyeah:

Out of curiosity does anyone believe that their deity or what they believe in is anything other than male? thinking back to when people worshipped the earth goddess and the Greeks, Romans and practically every other religion at that time had goddesses, is the current thinking that G-d, Satan, Jesus etc being male is the correct thing or just political thinking? those of us who believe in a god all pray to the Father never the Mother ( I assume?) I think even those who are atheists don't believe in a male god lol!

 

[FearlessFreep]

Out of curiosity does anyone believe that their deity or what they believe in is anything other than male?

Not literally but I take the terms 'male' and "Father" and the like for references to God as expressing a role or a relationship. Not who or what God really is but who God is in relationship to us. While not believing in the strict maleness of God, I avoid shying away too much from that metaphor because the metaphor is in place and I don't yet fully grasp it all so I am hesitant to discard it

and as Father myself, I do learn from that description without taking it as literal

Here's a song I wrote a long time ago about the parallels in understanding of what having a child means to me and in turn how I better understand how God views me because of that perspective

I think I understand
a little bit better
I think it all makes
a little more sense
I think I can comprehend
or maybe catch a glimpse
Of why you love me

So small
and helpless
A tiny life, in my arms
A tiny hand, in my palm
So frail
Defenseless
A tiny gift that fills my heart
Is this the way that you see me?
So pure
and trusting
Is this what you hold in your heart
When I cry out to you?

I think I realize
what you're here for
I think you open up
my eyes to see
As my heart breaks
in love for you
I learn His love for me

Child of mine
By the grace of God
Gift of life
Held in my arms
As I learn to love you more
I learn God's love for me
As you reach out to me
I learn to reach out to Him
You trust me, so innocent
That's the faith I need

 

[Sukerkin]

I think even those who are atheists don't believe in a male god lol!

You know, I feel that you may be right . Because, in a sense, my agnosticism began as a reaction to the religious teachings of my youth, I do tend to think in those terms .

However, in terms of the benign mysticism based upon the self as a being in relation to (and part of) everything else, I do get a sense of the positive feminine side i.e. those fellings of cooperation rather than hostile competition or domination of those people and things around an individual.

Our own pagan traditions were very much rooted in such ideals - the Celts may have been warlike but they had their heads screwed on when it came to mystcism. Darn those Roman's for caving into political pressure and then exporting their manufactured 'faith' over here .

EDIT: By 'manufactured', what I mean is that the faith spread by the Holy Roman Empire was one that was reached by consensus voting of secret 'councils' and it was put in position by Imperial fiat from a need to quell the civil unrest being caused by the 'christian' elements of the population (who would not be recognisable as the meek followers of the Lamb of Christ, which is the Christian image today).

 

[elder999]

The voices told me I was right, oh no have they lied? :uhyeah:

Out of curiosity does anyone believe that their deity or what they believe in is anything other than male? thinking back to when people worshipped the earth goddess and the Greeks, Romans and practically every other religion at that time had goddesses, is the current thinking that G-d, Satan, Jesus etc being male is the correct thing or just political thinking? those of us who believe in a god all pray to the Father never the Mother ( I assume?) I think even those who are atheists don't believe in a male god lol!

"God's" a little bit bigger than mere gender.

In fact, make thatA LOT bigger. :lfao:

 

[Sukerkin]

I'm not so sure you have the rght of it there, Elder.

A great many of the modern 'gender' issues that our societies are wrestling with have come from roots deep in the 'Christian tradition' of God the Father and it's concomitant insistance that women are the 'inferior' of men.

More ancient religions did indeed appear to have a greater prescence for female divinities, as is evidenced by the fact that we still speak of Mother Earth and that, before the Roman invasion of Britain, we had pagan Saxon communities with the emphasis on hearth and family where the woman had a social role to play that was of high status.

I've often theorised what our world would be like if the rapid Christian domination of Rome's religious infrastructure, with all it's miltary might to enforce it's views, had not occured.