Cheun Sau

[KPM]

Do other lineages outside of TWC have Cheun/Tseun Sau? It translates as "threading hand."

While it can look like a Biu Sau, Cheun Sau is actually something separate in the TWC system. It is used to transition safely from one side of an opponent's arm to the other, or just to close in while maintaining control of the opponent's arm.

Here are some examples from Phil Redmond:

I've seen other Wing Chun lineages do something similar, but they usually just consider it Biu Sau. Just curious if any other lineages break it out and gives it the emphasis that TWC does. Anyone?

 

[wingchun100]

I can see how it would be taken as Biu Sao. Personally I would like to see more of how it would get used in a chi sao/sparring type of situation.

 

[DanT]

We use it quite frequently but call it Biu Sao.

 

[DanT]

I can see how it would be taken as Biu Sao. Personally I would like to see more of how it would get used in a chi sao/sparring type of situation.

Opponent throws a left straight punch, you respond with a right biu sao inside of his arm, then you use your left biu sao quickly to transition to the outside gate. The switch has to be quick otherwise the arm wont be there.

 

[wingchun100]

Opponent throws a left straight punch, you respond with a right biu sao inside of his arm, then you use your left biu sao quickly to transition to the outside gate. The switch has to be quick otherwise the arm wont be there.

That is what I was thinking too, but I was having trouble visualizing it.

 

[LFJ]

Opponent throws a left straight punch, you respond with a right biu sao inside of his arm, then you use your left biu sao quickly to transition to the outside gate. The switch has to be quick otherwise the arm wont be there.

To do this transition quickly enough before the punch is retracted, you must have had the idea to go to the outside from the start, otherwise there's no time to make such a decision and act.

So, why not just go to the outside first? What's the point of trying to do a two-step, two-arm, inside-outside thing to a single punch?

 

[ShortBridge]

I concur with some of the other comments, this hand is familiar to us, but I've not heard that term before.

 

[Callen]

Do other lineages outside of TWC have Cheun/Tseun Sau? It translates as "threading hand."

I've never heard of this term. The first two videos show the same concept, looking much like a Biu Sau, while the third video seems slightly different in application.

 

[KPM]

Here is another example:

You'll notice this time that it looks like Phil is just doing a Lop Sau. This is because the Cheun Sau is a transition move. If you Cheun and then extend the arm, it becomes a Biu. If you Cheun and keep it tight it can become a Lop or a Fook. Cheun means "threading"....you are threading one arm past the other to change the line or gain control of the opponent's arm.

I think this is why it is considered a separate technique in TWC and given its own name. It isn't specifically a Biu Sau, as you see in this example. It isn't specifically a Lop Sau either. It is the hand switch or transition that changes the line.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

That's called "switching hands".

- You use right arm to block your opponent's punch.
- Use your left arm to take over that blocking.
- Free your right arm.
- You then strike your right hand again.

If you then

- Change your right striking hand into a blocking hand, and
- Punch your left hand.

that will be called "double switching hands".

This hand skill exist in almost all the CMA systems such as WC, long fist, preying mantis, Baji, Taiji, Bagua, ...

 

[wckf92]

Seems odd he emphasizes to "not let go" during this chuen sao transition, yet he does so when he does his lop'ing & pak'ing & stepping, etc

 

[DanT]

To do this transition quickly enough before the punch is retracted, you must have had the idea to go to the outside from the start, otherwise there's no time to make such a decision and act.

So, why not just go to the outside first? What's the point of trying to do a two-step, two-arm, inside-outside thing to a single punch?

You're right, you should just go to the outside first, but this technique is assuming you make a mistake and need to quickly transition to the outside gate.

 

[DanT]

To do this transition quickly enough before the punch is retracted, you must have had the idea to go to the outside from the start, otherwise there's no time to make such a decision and act.

So, why not just go to the outside first? What's the point of trying to do a two-step, two-arm, inside-outside thing to a single punch?

Opponent fakes a right punch so you do a right Biu Sao, but then opponent punches with their left hand, you wind up on the inside gate, and then use your left Biu Sao to transition to the outside.

 

[DanT]

Seems odd he emphasizes to "not let go" during this chuen sao transition, yet he does so when he does his lop'ing & pak'ing & stepping, etc

Those techniques are more for skill development, in application you just hold the lap or pak, you don't keep switching.

 

[LFJ]

You're right, you should just go to the outside first, but this technique is assuming you make a mistake and need to quickly transition to the outside gate.

Opponent fakes a right punch so you do a right Biu Sao, but then opponent punches with their left hand, you wind up on the inside gate, and then use your left Biu Sao to transition to the outside.

I can see why outside would be preferable, but why is it a mistake to be on the inside of the opponent's left with your right?

If you avoid the inside for whatever reason, and jump in to out with defensive action after defensive action, trying to get to a better position while the opponent is focused on raining punches, the percentages are not going to be in your favor.

 

[LFJ]

Here is another example:

Seems this cheun-sau transition to whatever can only be used when the arm is posed for you.
Most people tend to retract punches like in the latter bit.

His emergency "bong punch" requires him to react late after he's already launched his punch, and lean his body over to take cover and roll the incoming punch away from target, but it looks like it might still land.

Not to mention, the opponent's second punch is likely to cut right through his attack before he can respond like this, anyway. Risky.

I think the problem starts with the entry, blocking a punch and returning low, then following the retracted punch straight in already puts him in a disadvantageous position, as it doesn't address the danger of the other hand.

An awkward late reaction of leaning over and flaring the arm while still trying to punch effectively seems a weak defense, the result of a strategic failure from the get-go.

 

[KPM]

^^^^^^ Trying to start another argument? Go away Troll!!!

 

[LFJ]

I'm allowed to express my observations on a public forum. You don't have to agree or argue.

 

[KPM]

I'm allowed to express my observations on a public forum. You don't have to agree or argue.

It's your typical M.O. You never start posts on your own or freely share information. You look for things to criticize. If I respond to your criticisms to try and explain what is happening from at TWC perspective, you will refuse to see what I am saying, ignore the points that I make, and turn the whole thing into a convoluted argument. That's exactly what you did on the other forum. I'm not going to play your game this time. Go away.

 

[KPM]

Opponent fakes a right punch so you do a right Biu Sao, but then opponent punches with their left hand, you wind up on the inside gate, and then use your left Biu Sao to transition to the outside.

Also note the second video...the one on the beach. There Phil is in a cross-arm Chi Sau situation, feels pressure from his opponent, and uses Cheun Sau to transition to the inside. It can go either way.