Chen Family Taijiquan - Gongfu Jia

[Kung Fu Wang]

The problem with soft-only arts is that they cannot practice what they preach.

In order to have good structure/rooting, one needs to develop "body vibration force". When a force is applied on your body, your body will absorb it first (soft). Your body then bounce that force back (hard). The day that your body can change from soft to hard and then back to soft, you will have good structure/rooting.

If you only have soft force and don't have hard force, you don't have "body vibration force".

Example of "body vibration force".

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One reason I can think of is that you dislike the word "hard" - which you pretty much admit to as well.

It's so funny that you may dislike the word "hard". But when you get old, you will worship that word and hate the word "soft".

 

[Teapot]

it is self contained....maybe you misunderstand

What you refer to as "soft" is in context to what is not..."hard"

There are degrees of softness...in which others feeling they "soft" come to find out they are still "hard"
encountering others "softer"

In this way, what might be considered "soft" is still quite "hard "

This type of softness, the product of focused training , very demanding, physically hard to do.

So here I am... arguing about Taijiquan being both soft and hard, and I criticize "soft-only".

You have a tone of disagreement with this, so your counterpoint is now it's both soft and hard?

So... what's your disagreement? I've succeeded in getting you to say that soft is still quite hard.

When I say "soft-only", do you feel like I'm talking about you? Because if you're going to be in the 'soft and hard' camp... why are you acting as if you're in the "wet noodle" camp?

I would love it if those 'crowds' were mythical. One of the most recent things I've read in a Yang-style group is someone saying that Taijiquan has no fists because forming a fist is the antithesis of "Song". I have seen a lot of stuff like this in the "mythical" they.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I would love it if those 'crowds' were mythical. One of the most recent things I've read in a Yang-style group is someone saying that Taijiquan has no fists because forming a fist is the antithesis of "Song". I have seen a lot of stuff like this in the "mythical" they.

Can't say I'm fond of you making Yang style your whipping post, but I have heard this from some taiji folks, but the ones I heard it from were training the competition styles, modern wushu versions.... basically non-traditional. And for the record "Yang" 24 form is not from the Yang family, which is why I generally refer to it as the Beijing 24 form. And the 48 form is not from the Yang family either. But I will also add, I am also not a fan of the Current Yang family, their system or their politics.

Also should add, Cheng Manching is a style, also not Yang, that I know many Chen folks, especially Chen Xaiowang, are not fond of, "Lady hands" that is all I will say there. But then my Yang Shifu was not fond of it either and he did some push hands with Cheng Manching in Hong Kong, per request of his Shifu, Tung Ying Chieh. I will say no more there, not trying to start a flame war

 

[windwalker099]

So... what's your disagreement? I've succeeded in getting you to say that soft is still quite hard.

Having to speak in terms you use for clarity...Is succeeding...
Succeeding in what ?

If you feel there is a disagreement, might try re reading the post...


as for "tone"

Most people in Yang style don't have explosive power. The reason they don't showcase it in form is because they can't do it. It's embarrassing to show power in the form if it reveals how much they suck at it. If someone can't do it, the act of not showcasing power protects their dignity.

it's funny....

When I say "soft-only", do you feel like I'm talking about you? Because if you're going to be in the 'soft and hard' camp... why are you acting as if you're in the "wet noodle" camp?

there is no "wet noodle camp" there is no "soft and hard camp"

Some, "you" might view taiji in this way...I don't...

On-line conversations, "on line" not personal

"off line"

Of the Chen people I've met over the yrs
their practice's were quite different, from my own practice.

Not something I found interesting....others might..

 

[windwalker099]

Can't say I'm fond of you making Yang style your whipping post, but I have heard this from some taiji folks, but the ones I heard it from were training the competition styles, modern wushu versions.... basically non-traditional. And for the record "Yang" 24 form is not from the Yang family, which is why I generally refer to it as the Beijing 24 form. And the 48 form is not from the Yang family either. But I will also add, I am also not a fan of the Current Yang family, their system or their politics.

Also should add, Cheng Manching is a style, also not Yang, that I know many Chen folks, especially Chen Xaiowang, are not fond of, "Lady hands" that is all I will say there. But then my Yang Shifu was not fond of it either and he did some push hands with Cheng Manching in Hong Kong, per request of his Shifu, Tung Ying Chieh. I will say no more there, not trying to start a flame war

good attitude

Within the taiji community there seems to be very different view points...on what is ,what is not, ect..
always reference to history, old masters.... stories of the past...

Whether I agree or not..
Find it more interesting reading about what others have found, practice, or can do within their practices..
If I post on a topic , it's in the interest of conversation, providing another viewpoint based on experience.

about the work so to speak. among those who have an interest...

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

For the sake of soft vs. hard discussion, if someone drags a Taiji guy's arm and running in circle, what should that Taiji guy do?

Of course, not to let your opponent to grab on your arm is the best solution. But what if you can't prevent that from happening?

If the Taiji guy resists, his opponent will borrow the Taiji guy's resisting force. If the Taiji guy yields, his opponent will also borrow the Taiji guy's yielding force. So soft and hard both are not the solution. What should be the solution?

Resist:

Yield:

 

[Same Trick]

Oh, maybe you didn't know then. Gongfu Frame is a name from Chen Yu's line.

So you talk as if Chen Taijiquan as a whole has this term "Gongfu Frame" when it's referring to a lineage. You're making a big fuss over.... a name.

I don't think you quite understand here. I didn't invent this term. Someone in this line (be it Chen Yu or Chen Zhaokui) used this term. It's just a name, calm down.

Also your "gotcha" attempt regarding Chen Village competitions doesn't work because Chen Yu's line stems from Chen Zhaokui and Chen Fa'ke - all of whom were in Beijing.

Even within Chen Taijiquan, there are politics involved where they colloquially even have the term "Beijing" vs "Village".

So if you want to talk trash on Chen Village in the 90's, be my guest. Chen Fa'ke's lines have no affiliation with that.

There's a reason why the teachers of Chen Xiaowang's generation in the village came from outside.

Don’t worry, I’m calm down, we’re just sharing opinions. And sorry if you feel I’m trash talking, I’m not, I’ve met a fantastic teacher in Beijing from ChenZhokui line(I think he’s directly affiliated with Chen Yu, he showed me some quite interesting stuff, got my highest respect. Also since 14 years now I have been practicing parts of the Hunyuan TJQ system and find it truly valuable.

With that said, yes I kind of pulled all Chen’s into this and missed the thread was solely about Chen TJQ of Chen Yu.

But doesn’t the story go something as that Chen Yu’s father Chen Zhaokui was called back to the Chen’s village to restore their family’s martial art since it was on verge of vanish there ? Didn’t the village family learn that “gong fu” frame then ?

Maybe as you suspect, it is a creation by Chen Yu ?

But as you say “gong fu frame” might just be a general name and not actually a name for a (specific)frame, then that’s kind of what I originally claimed - that all frames are gong fu frames

 

[Same Trick]

Maybe missing something here "frame" a common reference in my experience.
It may take awhile to find one's own frame...before any real practice can begin

You did paint a picture


a non issue in my experience, others may find different..
In Beijing with my teachers group, most were from other styles.
Having felt the "soft overcome hard" directly..

Many stayed including myself because of this..

Meeting someone who could do what the stories of old narrated,,making them for me and others, no longer stories but accountings of events during that time...

All methods have good and bad points....representative of the theories they follow..

A problem for "some" might be, they either do not really follow the theory in practice. Or the practice has been corrupted by those unable to demo the theory they say the practice is based on..."soft over comes hard"

either way, it's their practice...hopefully they get a chance to meet those who can actually do what many feel they are "doing".
may find they really are not.

Or better, a person with a deeper skill level in what they already can do...

Yes, the true soft method is hard to come by, hard to find, teachers of it are few and hard to find. And if one is lucky to find such a teacher the teaching might not be appealing if one is still of the mind state of fighting and action.

The true soft is hard………to find

 

[Same Trick]

But I don't see how that's a contradiction to what I said because you mentioned most people had a background in training a hard power.

So that begs the question: what about all those schools that do not have most students having that background?

Then what?

Anyone can throw a punch, maybe it’s not a very powerful punch, but as long it’s thrown with determination then it hits the reality mark quite accurately. But you see, it’s not the punch in it self that is practiced to be dealt with, it’s the mental energy thats (about to)throw the punch that’s the issue to intercept or lead.
Most Taiji schools that work on this do it trough push hands and are fine with that, other schools may have other methods..

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Anyone can throw a punch, ... Most Taiji schools that work on this do it trough push hands ...

How can one be able to develop

- striking skill if PH doesn't even use fist?
- throwing skill if PH doesn't even use leg?

 

[Same Trick]

How can one be able to develop

- striking skill if PH doesn't even use fist?
- throwing skill if PH doesn't even use leg?

One can absolutely decide fists and leg skills to be part of the taiji PH practice, actually it’s a good idea so to understand the “soft”approach to striking, in PH format there’s no room for wind up for stiking, no forceful flung out the arm, no exaggerated hip or other body part moving.

However, I was originally referring to intents - a force coming at you or a force pulling you, push or pull - strike or tear.
Im alluding to energies not to specific techniques .

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

it’s a good idea so to understand the “soft”approach to striking, in PH format

When you say, "soft approach striking", are you talking about "pushing"?

This is the issue with Taiji PH. How to

- close distance to make arm contact is missing (start).
- knock/take your opponent down is also missing (finish).

If we treat Taiji PH as sparring/wrestling training, there are just too many missing elements in it.

 

[Same Trick]

When you say, "soft approach striking", are you talking about "pushing"?

This is the issue with Taiji PH. How to

- close distance to make arm contact is missing (start).
- knock/take your opponent down is also missing (finish).

If we treat Taiji PH as sparring/wrestling training, there are just too many missing elements in it.

Ok, The “soft” striking as I tried to briefly describe are strikes with no wind up, no flinging the arm out to reach a target. It’s a strike that just requires good positioning in relation to opponent who kind of walks/rush/fall into it



Ultimately PH is an exercise of sensing intents so to improve sense of timing and positioning, at some point this sensing of intents exercise may be done from a non touch distance.

Enter/intercep the opponents comfort zone in a way he’s caught off guard/balance is all within taiji methods, but let the opponent do the rushing in, with good sensing skill the taiji player just slightly need reposition to either intercept or to send opponents along into the now surprised empty space.

Yeah, all theory and easier said than done and so on, but that’s where the training comes in.

The sensing methods are not only found and trained in PH and similar partner practices but also within the taiji form itself.

A goal one could perhaps say is being reactive in a proactive sense. Japanese martial arts have a whole bunch of terminologies of levels for this theory put in practice.

 

[Teapot]

But doesn’t the story go something as that Chen Yu’s father Chen Zhaokui was called back to the Chen’s village to restore their family’s martial art since it was on verge of vanish there ? Didn’t the village family learn that “gong fu” frame then ?

Maybe as you suspect, it is a creation by Chen Yu ?

Initially, it was Chen Zhaopi who retired and returned to the village, only to be shocked that the art was on the verge of extinction, and his son had written an article about his father and the situation. But it wasn't anyone's fault. The village had gone through a lot of hardship, some articles (published on Chenjiagou's site) mentioned famines, invasions, poverty, and people fleeing the village. People cared about survival first and foremost.

After Chen Zhaopi passed away, they invited Chen Zhaokui to come over and teach.

But when one has decades of exposure to the first teacher, they would have a lot of habits. And Chen Zhaokui visited three times, but the culmination of his time there was around 2 years or slightly less. That isn't a lot of time, and his method is different enough for the villagers to go out of their way to coin it as "Xinjia" in contrast to previous learning which they call "Laojia". The teaching environment was also akin to a big workshop/seminar in the sense there there was one teacher and a lot of students.

Over time, the villagers generally gravitated back to the practice of their first teacher since that's where their habit was the strongest.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Ok, The “soft” striking as I tried to briefly describe are strikes with no wind up, no flinging the arm out to reach a target. It’s a strike that just requires good positioning in relation to opponent who kind of walks/rush/fall into it

Do you have any video to show what you are talking about?

I assume this is not "soft strike" by your definition.

 

[Xue Sheng]

For the sake of soft vs. hard discussion, if someone drags a Taiji guy's arm and running in circle, what should that Taiji guy do?

Of course, not to let your opponent to grab on your arm is the best solution. But what if you can't prevent that from happening?

If the Taiji guy resists, his opponent will borrow the Taiji guy's resisting force. If the Taiji guy yields, his opponent will also borrow the Taiji guy's yielding force. So soft and hard both are not the solution. What should be the solution?

Resist:

Yield:

Thats why they redirect

 

[Xue Sheng]

When you say, "soft approach striking", are you talking about "pushing"?

This is the issue with Taiji PH. How to

- close distance to make arm contact is missing (start).
- knock/take your opponent down is also missing (finish).

If we treat Taiji PH as sparring/wrestling training, there are just too many missing elements in it.

Taiji has punches, palm strikes, back fist, elbows, shoulder strikes, kicks, pushes. Etc. Just look at the 13 postures in application and you will see it

And if you are doing more advanced push any and all can come into play. But then push hands is a tool for training. It is not sparing or fighting

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Thats why they redirect

Redirect is a good strategy. Interrupt is also a good strategy. Both resist (hard) and yield (soft) are bad strategies.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Redirect is a good strategy. Interrupt is also a good strategy. Both resist (hard) and yield (soft) are bad strategies.

In combination they can work rather well