Chen Family Taijiquan - Gongfu Jia

[windwalker099]

Mine was accidental, I was not looking for a Yang style teacher. My teacher was a student of Tung Ying Chieh....

Mine was by a suggestion from a friend, and looking for a way to deepen my understanding of CMA as applied to fighting...
The teacher at the time, Sam Kaikina, was known as a fighter in HI back in the day..
He learned from "Tung HuLing "who taught in Hi...
Interesting method...not the one I was looking for...
.
Would continue to practice taiji as an adjunct to my other CMA practice's before before dropping them after meeting my last tai chi teacher..

reading the post, don't feel the choice is between "soft and hard" as some might say..
More about "Change and emptiness" or as some might say "open, close, empty and full,"

 

[Xue Sheng]

Mine was by a suggestion from a friend, and looking for a way to deepen my understanding of CMA as applied to fighting...
The teacher at the time, Sam Kaikina, was known as a fighter in HI back in the day..
He learned from "Tung HuLing "who taught in Hi...
Interesting method...not the one I was looking for...
.
Would continue to practice taiji as an adjunct to my other CMA practice's before before dropping them after meeting my last tai chi teacher..

reading the post, don't feel the choice is between "soft and hard" as some might say..
More about "Change and emptiness" or as some might say "open, close, empty and full,"

My shifu was a friend of Tung Hu Ling, helped him open a school in Thailand. I was doing push hands with my Shifu one evening and he did a move with high pat that knocked me to the floor..... looked down at me and said.... "Tung Hu Ling did that to me once"

 

[windwalker099]

My shifu was a friend of Tung Hu Ling, helped him open a school in Thailand. I was doing push hands with my Shifu one evening and he did a move with high pat that knocked me to the floor..... looked down at me and said.... "Tung Hu Ling did that to me once"

This a common way of teaching in China...maybe not so common in the US...different focus.

Lots of good practitioners in China and Taiwan, who are not very public with their practices....
Mistake to think that they don't get tested or are not capable with what they do..

 

[Xue Sheng]

This a common way of teaching in China...maybe not so common in the US...different focus.

Lots of good practitioners in China and Taiwan, who are not very public with their practices....
Mistake to think that they don't get tested or are not capable with what they do..

I enjoyed the training, but he was in NYS then, still is, but no longer teaches. He is in his 90s now

 

[Same Trick]

The problem with soft-only arts is that they cannot practice what they preach. They cannot practice 'soft overcome hard' because nobody in the class was trained to give hard power. The ideologies of softness and subtlety have made it such that nobody in the school has the mindset or training how what good hardness entails. It's easy to assume that the opponent is some dumb brute, but what happens if the opponent is intelligent and competent at hardness and structure?

yes many “softies” can’t really handle themselves when confronted. But since the thread is about Chen TJQ and its gongfu frame that I then guess you assume has the goods haven’t either to my knowledge shown being able to handle themselves agains let’s say a boxer or a wrestler or MMA specialist?
When was it ? Back in the 90’s ? A Yang TJQ practitioner actually he is of the Zheng manqing linage from the US participated at the chenvillage push hands competitions and won. The competition was rumored to be be really tough and Chen style was the most fighty of all taiji styles, but was no match for the Zheng manqing stylist

 

[Same Trick]

The thing one more and more read and hear is Taiji is yin and yang(no argue there from me) , and by so it’s practice should be soft and hard(now it begins to drift for me), and the hard part should therefore be very visual fali(in thin air) jumping and stomping …very “hard” looking and sounding(and here it’s totally lost and have more with performance show than combat to do)

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The problem with soft-only arts is that they cannot practice what they preach.

I don't think Chen Taiji is soft-only arts. Unfortunately, may be less than 1% of Chen people know how to train Chen Taiji.

 

[Same Trick]

The problem with soft-only arts is that they cannot practice what they preach. They cannot practice 'soft overcome hard' because nobody in the class was trained to give hard power. The ideologies of softness and subtlety have made it such that nobody in the school has the mindset or training how what good hardness entails. It's easy to assume that the opponent is some dumb brute, but what happens if the opponent is intelligent and competent at hardness and structure?

Taiji, by definition, involves Yin and Yang. It should be both soft and hard.

I have met many Yang style practitioners who are really into the soft stuff where they use subtlety and "song" and "release", etc... And they're decades into it; they're not new.

But when they played with me, all of a sudden, their stuff didn't work. Ironically, they're the ones mystified by me. They ask: "What are you doing? How are you doing that? How is this possible?" In their view, I was an outlier because they thought what they were doing would have worked on virtually anyone else.

It is because I am accustomed to hardness that I can appreciate softness. It's because I'm used to having partners who can give me hardness that I can exercise softness.

But a lot of Yang style is really just soft vs soft.

Most people in Yang style don't have explosive power. The reason they don't showcase it in form is because they can't do it. It's embarrassing to show power in the form if it reveals how much they suck at it. If someone can't do it, the act of not showcasing power protects their dignity.

Having an overly complaint and dramatized partner is often used to hide the fact that they can't do it; they need someone to play pretend for them. But many Chinese martial arts practice power in the form.

Some say that it's only for "external" martial arts, then I suppose Xingyiquan isn't an Internal martial art because they certainly practice power.

If the excuse is that Yang Taijiquan doesn't do hard Fa Jin, then Fu Zhongwen seems to disagree when he talks about Yang Shaohou:


Is Fu Zhongwen, a senior disciple of Yang Chengfu, wasting his time here? I don't see a partner anywhere here and it also doesn't look all that performative:

What about his grandson?

No partner in sight.

You are what you train. People who don't practice it can't do it.

My Yang TJQ is of Fu Zhongwen line my teacher a student of him, my teacher is also since childhood a shuaijiao and tongbeiquan practitioner and since long ago a teacher of these too. My teacher never experienced any specific solo training fali practice when a student of FZW except during push and practice, learning yang TJQ form the proper way eventually fali expression can easily be manifested here and there during practice, it comes naturally and don’t have to be a specific training routine.

I’m a long time Yiquan and Xingyiquan practitioner too, XYQ force is elastic and so it’s soft, way too many practice with way too strong emphasis on hard fali, yes I can very well understand- it feels strong within ones own body limits and looks strong when observed, it’s a very common trap, I’ve been there myself, and I know it’s totally worthless in combat.

This was the trap Wang Xiangzhai the founder of Yiquan wanted to erase from his students, sure there’s fali practice in yiquan, but it’s like with proper trained Yang TJQ, it comes almost naturally after properly trained in the very basics-

There absolutely no need for a specific “gong fu frame” to acquire gongfu

 

[Same Trick]

reading the post, don't feel the choice is between "soft and hard" as some might say..
More about "Change and emptiness" or as some might say "open, close, empty and full,"

Yes, defining the Yin/Yang within TJQ practice as “soft/hard” feels not accurate, much more preferred as you write - open/close, empty/full

 

[Teapot]

yes many “softies” can’t really handle themselves when confronted. But since the thread is about Chen TJQ and its gongfu frame that I then guess you assume has the goods haven’t either to my knowledge shown being able to handle themselves agains let’s say a boxer or a wrestler or MMA specialist?
When was it ? Back in the 90’s ? A Yang TJQ practitioner actually he is of the Zheng manqing linage from the US participated at the chenvillage push hands competitions and won. The competition was rumored to be be really tough and Chen style was the most fighty of all taiji styles, but was no match for the Zheng manqing stylist

Oh, maybe you didn't know then. Gongfu Frame is a name from Chen Yu's line.

So you talk as if Chen Taijiquan as a whole has this term "Gongfu Frame" when it's referring to a lineage. You're making a big fuss over.... a name.

I don't think you quite understand here. I didn't invent this term. Someone in this line (be it Chen Yu or Chen Zhaokui) used this term. It's just a name, calm down.

Also your "gotcha" attempt regarding Chen Village competitions doesn't work because Chen Yu's line stems from Chen Zhaokui and Chen Fa'ke - all of whom were in Beijing.

Even within Chen Taijiquan, there are politics involved where they colloquially even have the term "Beijing" vs "Village".

So if you want to talk trash on Chen Village in the 90's, be my guest. Chen Fa'ke's lines have no affiliation with that.

There's a reason why the teachers of Chen Xiaowang's generation in the village came from outside.

 

[windwalker099]

Oh, maybe you didn't know then. Gongfu Frame is a name from Chen Yu's line.

Maybe missing something here "frame" a common reference in my experience.
It may take awhile to find one's own frame...before any real practice can begin

You did paint a picture

The problem with soft-only arts is that they cannot practice what they preach. They cannot practice 'soft overcome hard' because nobody in the class was trained to give hard power. The ideologies of softness and subtlety have made it such that nobody in the school has the mindset or training how what good hardness entails.

a non issue in my experience, others may find different..
In Beijing with my teachers group, most were from other styles.
Having felt the "soft overcome hard" directly..

Many stayed including myself because of this..

Meeting someone who could do what the stories of old narrated,,making them for me and others, no longer stories but accountings of events during that time...

All methods have good and bad points....representative of the theories they follow..

A problem for "some" might be, they either do not really follow the theory in practice. Or the practice has been corrupted by those unable to demo the theory they say the practice is based on..."soft over comes hard"

either way, it's their practice...hopefully they get a chance to meet those who can actually do what many feel they are "doing".
may find they really are not.

Or better, a person with a deeper skill level in what they already can do...

 

[Teapot]

Maybe missing something here "frame" a common reference in my experience.
It may take awhile to find one's own frame...before any real practice can begin

You did paint a picture


a non issue in my experience, others may find different..
In Beijing with my teachers group, most were from other styles.
Having felt the "soft overcome hard" directly..

Many stayed including myself because of this..

Meeting someone who could do what the stories of old narrated,,making them for me and others, no longer stories but accountings of events during that time...

All methods have good and bad points....representative of the theories they follow..

A problem for "some" might be, they either do not really follow the theory in practice. Or the practice has been corrupted by those unable to demo the theory they say the practice is based on..."soft over comes hard"

either way, it's their practice...hopefully they get a chance to meet those who can actually do what many feel they are "doing".
They may find they really are not.

Or better, a person with a deeper skill level in what they do...

Laojia (Old Frame), Xinjia (New Frame), Xiaojia (Small Frame) are all terms in Chen Taijiquan.

Laojia was coined by Chen Zhaopi's students. So when people use that term, they're generally referring to the form that villagers learned from Chen Zhaopi.

Xinjia was coined by Chen Zhaopi's students after Chen Zhaokui visited to teach them. So when people use "Xinjia", it generally refers to what villagers learned from Chen Zhaokui.

But other lineages within Chen do not use those terms. Even Chen Zhaokui and his son do not call themselves "Xinjia".

Xiaojia (Small Frame) for example generally stems from Chen Youben's lineage.

These words aren't "Let me find my own inner self"; those words (involving 'Frame') can be categorically used to refer to lineages or branches. When someone uses those words, I can infer which line/branch they're talking about.

So when someone says "Gongfu Jia", that refers to Chen Zhaokui's line.

As for the picture I painted, I did indeed paint that picture, but that's not really related to 'frame' or gongfu. That is in response to the comment "soft and flowing hold the greatest gong-fu potential."

And I am not denying that soft and flowing aren't characteristics of some great gongfu, but conversely, a lot of fraudulent stuff also share those characteristics.

Let's think about this logically. If you experienced "soft overcome hard", did you learn how to give hardness from the art?

If it did... does that not mean the art has practices that include both soft and hard? And if the answer is yes, I don't see the problem.

If the answer is no, then what is the softness being trained against?

 

[windwalker099]

The problem with soft-only arts is that they cannot practice what they preach. They cannot practice 'soft overcome hard' because nobody in the class was trained to give hard power.

An interesting statement..

My teachers group had many visitors ...
Always funny and interesting watching the interaction between them and my teacher, some of our senior students..

The medium used through push hands, as some may know in China, it's a little different...people get thrown to the ground.
It can be quite rough depending on intent...
There was an impromptu fight club late in the evenings..among some of the older students in the group..



"They cannot practice 'soft overcome hard' because nobody in the class was trained to give hard power."

Most came from back grounds where the only type of power they trained in was hard power...
They teacher often encourage them to use their full power...
What they found, most of them could not handle the power they had developed as it was used against them ..

In finding this,,most quickly learned to modulate the amount of power they used, understanding less was more...
The skill was one of "empty, full, open and close".

 

[Teapot]

An interesting statement..

My teachers group had many visitors ...
Always funny and interesting watching the interaction between them and my teacher, some of our senior students..

The medium used through push hands, as some may know in China, it's a little different...people get thrown to the ground.
It can be quite rough depending on intent...
There was an impromptu fight club late in the evenings..among some of the older students in the group..



"They cannot practice 'soft overcome hard' because nobody in the class was trained to give hard power."

Most came from back grounds where the only type of power they trained in was hard power...
They teacher often encourage them to use their full power...
What they found, most of them could not handle the power they had developed as it was used against them ..

In finding this,,most quickly learned to modulate the amount of power they used, understanding less was more...
The skill was one of "empty, full, open and close".

But I don't see how that's a contradiction to what I said because you mentioned most people had a background in training a hard power.

So that begs the question: what about all those schools that do not have most students having that background?

Then what?

 

[windwalker099]

Let's think about this logically. If you experienced "soft overcome hard", did you learn how to give hardness from the art?

If it did... does that not mean the art has practices that include both soft and hard? And if the answer is yes, I don't see the problem.

If the answer is no, then what is the softness being trained against?

yes thinking logically,

We didn't looked at it through the lens of soft and hard.

"open close, empty full" was the practice...

The practice itself was verified through interaction, contrasting using no force and using force.
With some testing their practice with others coming to our practice, or they going to other's having informal matches,
off line....

Instead of soft and hard, one might look at it as change and resistance.
In this sense, any power felt is only the amount of resistance to change..

If one understands "change" in most cases they never feel the power from the other...


If one is unable to "change" they will feel power, not understanding it's from "them"

What is mentioned about "taiji" can be said of CMA in in general.
Back in the 70s...it was common to feel that CMA didn't really work as advertised..

Spent a lot of time as a young teenager and later as a young man, trying to correct this perception among those I met.
Now a little old, no longer feel a need to do so..

Everyone has their way...
do enjoy interacting with others, helping those walking the same path them to clarify the path they feel they're walking on...

 

[windwalker099]

So that begs the question: what about all those schools that do not have most students having that background?

Then what?

It's their practice

Not something I find interest in,,outside of some I happen to meet from time to time..
Maybe getting a chance to help them understand why, if they ask.
Why what they feel they practice...is not working out for them...

Everyone has different focus for their work..

Can't go to a class for seniors expecting to learn how to enter
the octagon...

 

[Teapot]

It's their practice

Not something I find interest in,,outside of some I happen to meet from time to time..
Maybe getting a chance to help them understand why, if they ask.
Why what they feel they practice...is not working out for them...

Everyone has different focus for their work..

Can't go to a class for seniors expecting to learn how to enter
the octagon...

I feel like this is a non-answer. To tie this back to the picture I painted regarding a "soft-only art", what you mentioned earlier relies on students who already have experience in other martial arts that taught them hardness. Therefore, the art isn't self-contained.

To rephrase my point differently, a 'soft-only art' isn't a self-contained learning system on 'soft overcoming hard'. Or to use the words "change" and "resistance" instead, they tend to be rather incompetent at giving resistance/force. You mention change in relation to feeling the other's power, well... that's the thing... the other side is often incompetent at giving power.

If someone is practicing change in response to lame power/resistance, the limitation in learning change is pretty self-evident. The examples you gave so far make it sound like they're dependent on people already having exposure to other martial arts - as opposed to cultivating their students to serve that role.

 

[windwalker099]

I feel like this is a non-answer. To tie this back to the picture I painted regarding a "soft-only art", what you mentioned earlier relies on students who already have experience in other martial arts that taught them hardness. Therefore, the art isn't self-contained.

non answer

An answer you don’t agree with .

Don’t agree with the characterization of soft and hard. Understand it might be coming from somebody with limited experience.

Not an issue.

Everyone has their own practice.

The OP demo, highlighting , his work was good on its own. Specific to his practice. .

Don’t see the point of contrasting it with others work .

Is there a point

 

[Teapot]

non answer

An answer you don’t agree with .

Don’t agree with the characterization of soft and hard. Understand it might be coming from somebody with limited experience.

Not an issue.

Everyone has their own practice.

The OP demo, highlighting , his work was good on its own. Specific to his practice. .

Don’t see the point of contrasting it with others work .

Is there a point

It wasn't a matter of agreement or disagreement. You just didn't have much of an answer. There wasn't a 'thing' to agree or disagree with.

I asked how can they practice overcoming 'hard' if the students didn't have a background in other martial arts, and your response entails that some outsider (via the usage of 'you') comes around to answer their questions "if they ask".

So basically... you don't have an answer without resorting to outsiders coming to visit them. Same thing within your previous examples where the art itself does not seem to include training the students in [whatever word you want to call it - hard, resistance, force, etc...] because they try really hard to not associate those words with their art.

I don't even see where you disagree with me since your examples don't even contradict it. One reason I can think of is that you dislike the word "hard" - which you pretty much admit to as well. And that's quite common. Any words associated with "Yang" are generally viewed with disdain among that crowd.

If I say words like "Strength, tension, fast, hard, hitting, smashing, etc...", they have a knee-jerk reaction.

 

[windwalker099]

I don't even see where you disagree with me since your examples don't even contradict it. One reason I can think of is that you dislike the word "hard" - which you pretty much admit to as well. And that's quite common. Any words associated with "Yang" are generally viewed with disdain among that crowd.

If I say words like "Strength, tension, fast, hard, hitting, smashing, etc...", they have a knee-jerk reaction.

"that crowd" "knee-jerk reaction"


The use of hard and soft, vs open and close, empty and full...
is very limited in description referring to a state of energy or application.

open, close , empty or full, used by many in the practices .
reflecting a focus on dynamic change, transitions and relationships between states.

Taiji, as a method, can vary significantly depending on the underlying theory it follows. What may seem missing in one method might be intentional, reflecting a different theory guiding the practice.

If I say words like "Strength, tension, fast, hard, hitting, smashing, etc...", they have a knee-jerk reaction.

the mythical "they"

The problem might be one of using the words to characterize practices not practiced,
providing what might be called "misinformation" based on what seems to be a limited view point...

No one I know has a problem with the words...
They tend to like the "actions" the words describe to be used by others

Provides good contrast allowing them to show what is different, and why...
Not really understanding the reason for this discussion it seems to be off-topic..

To tie this back to the picture I painted regarding a "soft-only art", what you mentioned earlier relies on students who already have experience in other martial arts that taught them hardness. Therefore, the art isn't self-contained.

it is self contained....maybe you misunderstand

What you refer to as "soft" is in context to what is not..."hard"

There are degrees of softness...in which others feeling they "soft" come to find out they are still "hard"
encountering others "softer"

In this way, what might be considered "soft" is still quite "hard "

This type of softness, the product of focused training , very demanding, physically hard to do.

Those students. including myself coming from other practices...found something quite different making the stories of old real. Many including myself ended up staying...

In doing so, most find they have to drop everything they thought they knew..
.
Even then it might be to late to get past, ingrained body training from previous training..
Some never can make the transition...

In this sense the training is "self contained" only needing testing as with any training with those outside of the group
to confirm the skill level....

It is said "for 10yrs one does not go outside the door"

Chen style as a method, good for those who enjoy the method....
deep and rich in IMA history.... quite different from other "taiji" methods.


small story about a Chen taiji exponent

Master Wei Shuren

So on the wrong side of fifty Master Wei set aside all that he had learned before and began to learn afresh from Master Wang.

Illustrates the point that practices can be very different..even after many years of practice