Changing Dojo or Teacher

[Chris Parker]

No, that's not really the way it is. As I've said a number of times, with the different approaches from the different organisations, what is "right" for one is "wrong" in another. So it becomes a matter of it being less confusing for the student themselves. Another major point is that if you are learning a particular martial art from an instructor, and you then also learn the same one from another instructor, you are basically saying to the first one that you don't think they're teaching you well enough, and is really a statement about your lack of confidence in the teacher. As martial arts are all about a connection directly from the teacher to the student, what message are you sending by saying "yeah, you're good and I like you and all, but I also want this other guy to teach me, cause he does other stuff"? Basically, you've just disqualified yourself from being part of the connection.

It's to ensure that the student learns correctly, and that the teacher is afforded the respect they deserve. Kyokushin and Shotokan are different forms of karate, not just different organisations, so that analogy isn't accurate. Here we are talking about different organisations teaching the same material. This extends to us, by the way, the way I teach would be considered "wrong" by Bujinkan standards and approaches, so if you were to join a Bujinkan school, you would be told that what you had learnt was wrong. Same if you went from Bujinkan to Genbukan (my approach is closer to the Genbukan/Jinenkan approach, for the record, but there are still a number of differences there).

This really isn't to do with money, its more based in the way martial arts have been taught in the past, and continue to be done today. For that reason, there isn't a ban on cross-training in other arts, just between the organisations. It's really nothing to do with protecting memberships or their fee structure.

 

[Bruno@MT]

yes olay itr not for money but what is all the trouble for such a small thing. perhaps the do not want the students to train in different organisation. thus forcing him to train only in Bujinkan. its like kyokushin karate and shoto karate. its a big corporation. they dont want to lose money and have to make these rules about membership. but thats my opinion on this.

I think you are wrong.
It has primarily to do with the fact that the headmaster has a specific idea about how the arts should be taught. For example Tanemura sensei and Hatsumi sensei have radically different ideas on how to train, both believing theirs is the beter approach.

And the training methods are fairly incompatible. In order not to create problems, as well as to prevent the situation where you have responsibilities to sensei of different organization, there is the rule against training with another ninjutsu organization.

That, as well as the x kan headmasters not wanting their students to be associated with the neo ninjer groups who make themselves and the art look ridiculous.
I cannot speak for other orgs, but if Tanemura sensei was in it just for the money, he would not still be training under another sensei even today, he would not personally teach at honbu dojo 6 or 7 days per week, 3 times per day, and he would not make it take about 10 years to reach black belt with such long times between exams.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

okay I get what you are saying. martial art is a passion. nothing to do with money.
I stand corrected

 

[Cryozombie]

There are some financial obligations in the Bujinkan, don't mistake that... Rank costs, yearly membership dues to Hombu, etc... But overall most instructors I know don't do it for a living and aren't nearly as expensive as your run of the mill TKD or "Karate" school in the strip-malls.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

There are some financial obligations in the Bujinkan, don't mistake that... Rank costs, yearly membership dues to Hombu, etc... But overall most instructors I know don't do it for a living and aren't nearly as expensive as your run of the mill TKD or "Karate" school in the strip-malls.

TKD International federation is huge. most of the class is full of under ten kids in some of these places. very popular for perents to take thier kids. thinking that they will be learning to defend themselves. instead they learn how to do a double roundhouse and spin kick

 

[Bruno@MT]

TKD International federation is huge. most of the class is full of under ten kids in some of these places. very popular for perents to take thier kids. thinking that they will be learning to defend themselves. instead they learn how to do a double roundhouse and spin kick

Slightly off topic, but sometimes we misjudge people because they are not doing things for the same reason we do.

For example, the local TKD club which uses the same dojo is the cream of the Belgian crop. I was surprised to learn this because I sometimes see them practice, and can't help but think that I would be able to take down their black belts because they are 100% competition oriented and completely ignore the SD part of their training. So they don't do punches, keep their hands low, have no concept of grapling or close combat. If I play by my rules (which means: none) I think I could come out ahead. If I play by their rules, they'll cream my *** for sure.

If I were to only look at the surface, I could easily conclude that it is just a belt mill for making money. If I look further, I see that their club has a different focus, and I cannot make any meaningful comparison with what we do. In this case I know that what they do is very good indeed because they took away most medals in the national championships (11 fighters, 10 medals).

I've also watched their sensei (no idea how that is called in Korean) move. And while it is very different and unsuitable for what we do, I admire his skill because the man can move like a bumblebee and be stock-still within a fraction of a second and be in perfect control of his body, rooted like a tree and ready to either retreat with the same speed or kick someone
in half.

 

[steelnshadow]

Ok.. so what you are saying is that even if I leave I will not be expelled from the bujinkan and probably my grade (from Japan) will be accepted but the new teacher might keep me the same level until I am up to spec?

 

[Bruno@MT]

Yes. The bujinkan has no standards in grading. It is up to each teacher to decide what skills go with which grade. So while your grade will be acknowledged by a new dojo, they will not promot you further until you are up to their standards regarding that grade.

 

[DuskB4Dawn]

yes i agree Bruno@MT. some of the stuff they do is amazing and takes alot of agility for sure. Its awesome to watch. but for sure it is made as a sport first and defence aswell but winning tornaments is probley the main focus. I bet a tkd guy can more than handle themselves on the street compared to your average joe. just because of superior balance and co-ordination.

 

[Krevon]

To the OP how have things worked out? Have you moved on? Did you have a sit down with your instructor?

 

[steelnshadow]

To the OP how have things worked out? Have you moved on? Did you have a sit down with your instructor?

I have contacted other teachers asking them if they are willing to train me as their students. I spoke to my teacher explaining that I feel the need to change and move on. Its still a work in progress...

I do not have his blessing yet but neither got any threats... I will update soon after I will inform him that I will move on.

 

[Aiki Lee]

Question: Do you want to change teachers because you feel your current teacher doesn't have much to teach you or do you not particuarly like the way he teaches?

Keep in mind that when discussing this with him he may feel a sense of batrayal or sadness especially if you have had a rather long relationship. He may feel insulted (not that this is your intent, just his perspective) at the notion that he is not good enough for you.

 

[steelnshadow]

Question: Do you want to change teachers because you feel your current teacher doesn't have much to teach you or do you not particuarly like the way he teaches?

Both I guess... After all this time training with him I feel like I have absorbed his beliefs and techniques, the only way forward that I see for my training is a different teacher with a different perspective and maybe an enphasis on different methods within the Bujinkan. Others before me went this way by changing martial art, but I am too fond of ninjutsu to do anythnig else, and doing nothing is not an option for me

Keep in mind that when discussing this with him he may feel a sense of batrayal or sadness especially if you have had a rather long relationship. He may feel insulted (not that this is your intent, just his perspective) at the notion that he is not good enough for you.

In asian countries the instructor eventually tells the student, 'I have nothing more to teach you.' If this doesn't happen the instructor might instead tell the student, 'Go train with this instructor or this one and then come back to me.' In my case I always heard 'keep training with me to become better', 'don't train with others because there are many posers in the world..' :uhohh: :erg:

Don't get me wrong I am very thankful for what my instructor taught me throughout these years and for introducing me to ninjutsu, unfortunately there is this other side as well.... Hence this is the reason why I am asking if there are any procedures to change teacher officially or unofficially within the bujinkan.

 

[Bruno@MT]

I don't know if this has been asked or not, but how long have you been training, and how long has your teacher been training?

 

[steelnshadow]

I have been training for something over 10 years, my teacher over 20 years.

 

[Bruno@MT]

In that case you should indeed have an idea of where you are going. Is your sensei still actively training under anoher sensei?

 

[steelnshadow]

No not really, maybe once or twice a year, he says he periodically receives material from Japan but he hasn't been training under a teacher for years now.

 

[Aiki Lee]

If your teacher has indeed showed you everything he either knows or is willing to share then I agree it is time to find someone new.

I'd be up front about wanting a different perspective on the subject from a new instructor, if he isn't ego driven then he should be able to understand why you feel the need to move on. Just think about how you would want someone to tell you if you were his teacher.

 

[Bruno@MT]

No not really, maybe once or twice a year, he says he periodically receives material from Japan but he hasn't been training under a teacher for years now.

This here is the problem, in my opinion.

As long as someone actively trains, he makes progress. Without a sensei who is better than he is, your sensei cannot pull himself up anymore. If he doesn't train anymore (or without routine supervision) then his skills will start to deteriorate, and after a while he will be stuck. And as a result, you will be stuck too. If you have been training this long, there is a chance that you've met each other halfway. His skill going down and yours going up.

That is one major reason why everybody in Genbukan is expected to keep training under a higher sensei. Even Soke himself still trains under another sensei, just to keep improving himself. He says that learning martial arts is like boiling water if you are not heating it, it is cooling off.

 

[Bujingodai]

That's awesome he still trains, what in?
That would be pretty intimdating I guess for the instructor as well I'd guess.