Does The Learning Ever Stop?

[MJS]

No you never stop the learning process. Usually there is some thing more to learn. However, it is not always realistic to stay with one teacher forever. ie. move away, etc. I have had many teachers and each one of them has been incredibly important to my growth as a martial practitioner. When talking or training with them I always pay attention and try to learn more even if I do not train with them on a regular weekly basis anymore. They are my teacher's and I owe them alot. Your friend is correct in one thing at this point in your training and without a teacher you certainly could benefit a lot from going to different Kenpo seminar's as well as other seminars in other systems to enhance your training. It is also great that you have a new teacher in a new art! Just keep exploring and enjoying the training. Enjoying the training is so important for longevity!

Good points Brian!

 

[MJS]

yes, I would say that you can reach a point where a particular teacher has no more to teach you, or with whom you will no longer advance and grow. That's not the same thing. They may still have things that they can teach you, but it is possible that what they have to teach you is not relevant to your path of growth. That's a point that you need to be able to identify for yourself.

Thats a very good point Mike, and to be honest, I didn't think about the last part when you made reference to not teaching something thats relevant to the students path of growth.

As far as having NO teacher, and being responsible for your own development, I think you should always be in that state even if you still have a good teacher who has plenty to teach and guide you with. But yes, you can also determine that the best path for your growth, at least for a while, means to have no teacher, and to be free and loose to find your own way with what you have learned. That's absolutely viable and I think with the number of years you have in, completely reasonable and realistic. Then possibly one day you will stumble into a teacher who has a lot to teach you, a rare individual, and you can begin your journey again with him/her.

Agreed, and currently, yes, I believe I have found that person.

Honestly, Mike, I'm not a big fan of seminars. The reason is this: it is a short period with someone who is not your teacher, with whom you do not have an ongoing relationship, and I think it's difficult or impossible to properly learn anything concrete. That short training period teaches you the shell of something, but it takes a relationship to get the constant feedback and correction needed to make that shell into something worth while and meaty. Otherwise you have learned something superficially, and it will always only be superficial if you don't get further guidance. Given that, I don't see the point in the exercise and I don't see the point in keeping things learned in this manner. I know a lot of people would disagree with me.

You know, this is another good point. I've gone to alot of seminars, and while I do walk away with something, its usually a handful of things. IMO, its next to impossible to remember everything, so yeah, unless you have a teacher in that art, to refer back to, its possible your knowledge will just stop with what was taught that day.

Here's my suggestion: Given your history in the martial arts and particularly kenpo, there's no further curriculum that you need to learn, if you wish to keep kenpo as your system. You know enough, probably too much in fact. You probably know enough that it can literally get in the way of itself and even be a burden and a speed bump in your training. If there is another kenpo kata, or another list of SD techs that you haven't learned, don't worry: you don't need it, it would be a waste of your time. Don't go chasing after a magic bullet that doesn't exist.

Agreed 1000%! LOL!

What you should be looking for is a way to do everything better. Look at the underlying methodology of how you deliver your techniques. Are you satisfied that the method is the best? Might there be a better method, a better approach, to execute the same material? Might someone be able to guide you in this? Even someone from outside kenpo, but whose methodology you might be able to adapt to your kenpo? I'd say that is the kind of information that you should be looking for, that's what might help you grow more. If someone offers to teach you Long Form 17 and Short Form 9, and 30 more SD techs, you should decline. that is exactly what you do not need at this stage. Waste of your time and effort, and it will just slow you down. Don't look for techniques. Look for a methodology, a platform for delivery. that's where the real keys are, the real secrets. It all comes back to the basics anyway.

I'm sure there's always a better way to do something. I still have people to fall back on, should I wish to review the Kenpo.

 

[MJS]

That's the beauty about various martial arts.

You can choose to further your knowledge by other arts/instructors

That is true. Some may frown on the idea of cross training, however, I think that it'll be a benefit more than anything else, in the long run.

 

[Instructor]

Do you feel that you can ever reach a point in your training, when you can no longer learn anything from your teacher? Assuming that you've put in a good 20 years at least, for the sake of discussion. Does the learning stop or do you feel that a teacher will always have something to offer?

This is a question that came up during a discussion with a good friend, who is also a martial artist. As a focal point, he used my Kenpo training as an example. All total, I've put in 26yrs, with a few different teachers. Although I've changed teachers, for various reasons, I've dedicated the majority of my time, in Kenpo. Since I'm once again in limbo with a Kenpo teacher, he made the statement that rather than seek out yet another teacher, instead, focus my time now, on attending camps, seminars, etc, with various Kenpoists. He went on to say that he felt that at this point in my Kenpo training, it'd be rare that I'd see something so new that I'd go 'ohh and ahh' over it. Instead, focus on working with people for the sake of continuing with the journey, so to speak.

This thread really isn't about me per se. I'm simply using the discussion that I had, as a discussion topic here, as well as to get the opinions of everyone here. For the record, my decision regarding Kenpo is to put it on the back burner for now. Currently, I've changed paths, and have begun a new art, under a new teacher, and I have to say, I'm enjoying it very much.

My teacher and I are in year 21 together and I can honestly say that I learn something new every time I work with him. Often we both learn something new, little revelations that make it all worthwhile. I wouldn't trade him for anybody!

 

[MJS]

Aside from the value of seminars and different people, time spent training alone-especially after spending time in an art, internalizing principles, can be extremely valuable as a learning experience-especially if you're a congenital klutz with various physical challenges like me. I say that because it's true, and also as an example-not everyone is going to do things the same way, no matter how much their teachers may try to, or learn things the same way. I spent my first year in tae kwon do with my teacher telling me to "turn your hip in" when I did a side kick. This meant nothing at all to me, even when he would place his hands on my hip and physically turn it inward with my leg extended in a side kick-it wasn't until I watched people who I knew were kicking well, and observed how their kicking foot was turned, and turned my foot that way, that I succeeded in "turning my hip in." It may not seem like much, but it was a valuable insight for me as an 11 year old student, and, later, as a teacher-not everyone uses or recognizes the same language around physical actions, and, as a teacher, it's an advantage to have more than one way of verbally and physically expressing what's being demonstrated.

LOL, funny you should say that. After years of punching, kicking and blocking a certain way, I did feel like that klutz when I started with my new teacher. Sure, I still knew how to do all those things, but now I have to relearn so to speak, and do things the new way. Its all good though. I'm having a blast and get challenged to push myself, every time.

This. I took up aikido and a form of kali a few years back, and it's been very rewarding, both for my own practice, and the insights they've offered into the arts I already had some time in. Sometimes, we do have to seek out other, or new teachers, for various reasons-depending on where you are in your development, instruction from a much older teahcer might not be what you need-in spite of what they might have to offer in terms of knowledge, their practice and form might be focused on very different things: efficiency vs. power, say-if you're in your teens or twenties, and your teacher is in his 70s, while he might be able to teach you a great deal, he might not be interested in developing exactly what it is you need at that age.

Learning never stops.....part of the whole point of taking arts up, really......

Agreed! Yeah, its amazing what a fresh start can do.

 

[Flying Crane]

Thats a very good point Mike, and to be honest, I didn't think about the last part when you made reference to not teaching something thats relevant to the students path of growth.

ah, I must be doing my job...

Agreed, and currently, yes, I believe I have found that person.

remind me again, what are you focusing your training in? and what brought you to this, what made it click for you?

You know, this is another good point. I've gone to alot of seminars, and while I do walk away with something, its usually a handful of things. IMO, its next to impossible to remember everything, so yeah, unless you have a teacher in that art, to refer back to, its possible your knowledge will just stop with what was taught that day.

particularly with that bolded part, simply remembering what was taught isn't enough, but that is, in my opinion, the most of what one can expect to gain from the experience. Remembering what was taught is a long way from understanding it and getting any benefit from it.

reminds me of something I saw on the internet...a guy listed on his website, his training diary for the year, the number of repetitions he did of the very many kata that he knows, etc. Clearly some things he was spending a lot more time on. I remember that one of those kata that he practiced, he only did like four or five times, the whole year. This looks to me like it's just enough to remember the sequence of the kata, so he doesn't forget it over time. It's nowhere near enough to get any benefit from that particular kata. Kata, like any component of the training, needs to be done regularly and frequently, and with a depth of understanding and intention, in order to benefit from the practice. Simply going thru the motions to remember the sequence, a minimum number of times to just remember it, gives you exactly zero benefit. May as well throw that one out and forget it. Spend the time working on things that are properly understood, and that you can spend significant time on. Otherwise it's just collecting material, and that's pointless. One or two good kata, properly understood and properly practiced, is plenty to be a complete martial artist. There's no need to collect.

 

[MJS]

ah, I must be doing my job...

remind me again, what are you focusing your training in? and what brought you to this, what made it click for you?

Kyokushin. After my decision to begin a new search, I looked at a JJJ/BJJ school in the area. I took a 6wk. trial there. Place was nice, the inst. was nice. However, IMHO, the focus was much, much greater on BJJ and that wasn't what I was looking for. After the 6wk trial, I went to check out the Kyokushin dojo. I'm not ashamed in the least to say that it is by far the most intense place that I've ever trained at. The workouts, the training, all very hardcore, which is what I enjoy. So thats basically what made things click.

particularly with that bolded part, simply remembering what was taught isn't enough, but that is, in my opinion, the most of what one can expect to gain from the experience. Remembering what was taught is a long way from understanding it and getting any benefit from it.

reminds me of something I saw on the internet...a guy listed on his website, his training diary for the year, the number of repetitions he did of the very many kata that he knows, etc. Clearly some things he was spending a lot more time on. I remember that one of those kata that he practiced, he only did like four or five times, the whole year. This looks to me like it's just enough to remember the sequence of the kata, so he doesn't forget it over time. It's nowhere near enough to get any benefit from that particular kata. Kata, like any component of the training, needs to be done regularly and frequently, and with a depth of understanding and intention, in order to benefit from the practice. Simply going thru the motions to remember the sequence, a minimum number of times to just remember it, gives you exactly zero benefit. May as well throw that one out and forget it. Spend the time working on things that are properly understood, and that you can spend significant time on. Otherwise it's just collecting material, and that's pointless. One or two good kata, properly understood and properly practiced, is plenty to be a complete martial artist. There's no need to collect.

Perhaps that was a poor choice of wording on my part. I was looking at it like this...if you expect to really understand something, IMO, you need to be able to remember what you're doing. Given the fact that there's a ton of stuff being taught, I'd do my best to take 2 or 3 things that really caught my eye, and drill the hell out of them. For example...at last years Arnis camp I went to, one of the guys teaching, came from a JKD background. The things that he was teaching, were related to Arnis, but with a JKD flavor. It was a series of 5 or 6 techs. I really liked and made a point, afterwards, to approach him, and get a few more fine points on that segment. IMO, be doing that, it gave me a better, deeper understanding, and also gave me something new to add to my toolbox.

 

[Flying Crane]

Kyokushin. After my decision to begin a new search, I looked at a JJJ/BJJ school in the area. I took a 6wk. trial there. Place was nice, the inst. was nice. However, IMHO, the focus was much, much greater on BJJ and that wasn't what I was looking for. After the 6wk trial, I went to check out the Kyokushin dojo. I'm not ashamed in the least to say that it is by far the most intense place that I've ever trained at. The workouts, the training, all very hardcore, which is what I enjoy. So thats basically what made things click.

Now this is something that I find interesting. I would like to see a comparison in the methodology between kyokushin and kenpo. Not a comparison of curriculum but rather a comparison of how they have you drill the basics, like a reverse punch. Do you see a difference in the methodology on that level?

 

[chinto]

that would be interesting to hear for me as well.

 

[rickster]

Does The Learning Ever Stop?

yes, when you have a disease affecting memory, or your'e dead

 

[Chris Parker]

Synchronicity is an interesting concept... I've been thinking about exactly how to express my take on this topic, when Wayne Muromoto put this on his blog today: http://classicbudoka.wordpress.com/ (Kaizen Budo).

Does the learning ever stop? Sure, if it's as far as you're comfortable going. Does the potential for learning ever stop? That depends on how you're classing "learning" here. I'll explain.

A theme I've seen here, with a couple of exceptions such as Flying Crane's comments, seems centered on "learning" involving new techniques or ideas. MJS was advised that he should attend seminars as he wouldn't see anything "so new that (he'd) go ooh aah over it". There has also been reference to "learning everything an instructor could teach", which seemed to me to imply a number of techniques. Now, in that regard, there certainly is a limit to what you can "learn" without looking at other arts. But to me, that's really missing the point of "learning" in martial arts in the first place.

To me, "learning" in martial arts should be better described as "developing". If we were to look at an art like Seitei Iaido, there are 12 techniques. That's it. 12. And they're all done solo, being relatively short sequences of movements. There aren't really variations on them, either. Now, realistically, a Seitei Iaido teacher could "teach" me all 12 in one afternoon without any real problem... hell, they could probably do it in two hours or less, including practice time to make sure I have them down to some degree. So why would I keep going back to that instructor after I had "learned" the 12 kata? Well, to continue to develop and improve. New techniques aren't the point. And if you're moving on because you're not being taught new techniques, I'd personally ask how well you've actually learnt the ones you have.

Now, this isn't to say that you should stick with the instructor no matter what, it's saying you stay with them as long as they keep you developing and improving, and as long as you want to keep developing and improving in that art. If you can do the techniques, and your instructor starts asking you for guidance and insight, then you've outgrown them. If you're doing the same techniques, and they're still correcting you, you haven't. Whether it's new techniques or not.

So to get back to it, does the learning ever stop? Yeah, it can. But that's more to do with the student than the instructor in most cases. And it's certainly more to do with the student than the art in all cases (excepting the more laughable ones... Ashida Kim, I'm looking at you!).

 

[MJS]

Now this is something that I find interesting. I would like to see a comparison in the methodology between kyokushin and kenpo. Not a comparison of curriculum but rather a comparison of how they have you drill the basics, like a reverse punch. Do you see a difference in the methodology on that level?

that would be interesting to hear for me as well.

Much like in Kenpo, we drill the punches from a particular stance, as are the kicks and blocks. Obviously this is all done in Japanese, which in and of itself, has been an interesting learning experience. Anyways, I'd say the main differences are (at least compared to the Kenpo schools that I've been a part of) alot of focus on power and proper execution. I've seen alot of basics in my old schools and while some are good, there are alot that...well, in a nutshell, they suck! No power, no body rotation, nothing.

For me at least, I notice that everyone is pushed...pushed to block harder, punch harder, kick harder and higher. If you're not doing things the way he wants you to do them, he lets you know..lol. Now, once again, I'm only basing this on the schools that I have seen. Perhaps there are Kenpo schools that follow this mentality as well, I dont know.

We also do floor work, moving up and down the dojo floor with various punches, blocks, and kicks. At times, we'll also do bagwork. Of course, thruout this process, as I said above, power is strongly emphasized.

Hope that answered your questions. If not, feel free to ask me more. Oh, and for the record, I'm not by any means, claiming to be an authority on Kyokushin. I've only been training since last Aug. My opinions are strictly based on that time frame.

 

[MJS]

Synchronicity is an interesting concept... I've been thinking about exactly how to express my take on this topic, when Wayne Muromoto put this on his blog today: http://classicbudoka.wordpress.com/ (Kaizen Budo).

Does the learning ever stop? Sure, if it's as far as you're comfortable going. Does the potential for learning ever stop? That depends on how you're classing "learning" here. I'll explain.

A theme I've seen here, with a couple of exceptions such as Flying Crane's comments, seems centered on "learning" involving new techniques or ideas. MJS was advised that he should attend seminars as he wouldn't see anything "so new that (he'd) go ooh aah over it". There has also been reference to "learning everything an instructor could teach", which seemed to me to imply a number of techniques. Now, in that regard, there certainly is a limit to what you can "learn" without looking at other arts. But to me, that's really missing the point of "learning" in martial arts in the first place.

To me, "learning" in martial arts should be better described as "developing". If we were to look at an art like Seitei Iaido, there are 12 techniques. That's it. 12. And they're all done solo, being relatively short sequences of movements. There aren't really variations on them, either. Now, realistically, a Seitei Iaido teacher could "teach" me all 12 in one afternoon without any real problem... hell, they could probably do it in two hours or less, including practice time to make sure I have them down to some degree. So why would I keep going back to that instructor after I had "learned" the 12 kata? Well, to continue to develop and improve. New techniques aren't the point. And if you're moving on because you're not being taught new techniques, I'd personally ask how well you've actually learnt the ones you have.

Now, this isn't to say that you should stick with the instructor no matter what, it's saying you stay with them as long as they keep you developing and improving, and as long as you want to keep developing and improving in that art. If you can do the techniques, and your instructor starts asking you for guidance and insight, then you've outgrown them. If you're doing the same techniques, and they're still correcting you, you haven't. Whether it's new techniques or not.

So to get back to it, does the learning ever stop? Yeah, it can. But that's more to do with the student than the instructor in most cases. And it's certainly more to do with the student than the art in all cases (excepting the more laughable ones... Ashida Kim, I'm looking at you!).

Well said Chris. The only thing that I'm going to comment on is the 'moving on because you're not learning anything new' part of your post. For me, that was not the case at all. Hell, if it was, I wouldn't have devoted 20+ years to the art. No, my moving on, had nothing to do with techniques. It has to do with a few different reasons, some of which I'd rather not post here, although perhaps I should. The reasons range from difference of opinion with the owner of the school, to the issue of finding the time to fit in the training sessions, which required out of state travel, as well as the amount of $$ that I was being charged.

 

[Chris Parker]

Ha, I didn't think that that was the case for you, Mike! I was speaking a little more generally there, as there can be such thoughts from time to time.

 

[Flying Crane]

Does the learning ever stop? Sure, if it's as far as you're comfortable going. Does the potential for learning ever stop? That depends on how you're classing "learning" here. I'll explain.

...

Chris, this is an excellent post and is very much in line with what I was getting at. Thanks for adding to the thoughts I was trying to express.

 

[rickster]

And it's certainly more to do with the student than the art in all cases (excepting the more laughable ones... Ashida Kim, I'm looking at you!).

How can one learn from someone who hasnt learned?

 

[Flying Crane]

How can one learn from someone who hasnt learned?

one cannot. in that case, there is no teacher.

 

[rickster]

one cannot. in that case, there is no teacher.

If a lesson could be learned, wasn't there a "teacher"?

 

[Flying Crane]

If a lesson could be learned, wasn't there a "teacher"?

maybe, but that's not what you said. You said, "how can one learn from someone who hasn't learned?" to which I said, "one cannot. In that case, there is no teacher."

what you are saying in this post is something else altogether.

 

[rickster]

maybe, but that's not what you said. You said, "how can one learn from someone who hasn't learned?" to which I said, "one cannot. In that case, there is no teacher."

what you are saying in this post is something else altogether.

Yes...

However, one can learn a lesson from another who has no ability to teach.

Using Ashida, we learn a lesson not to take the face value of questionable people.

Lesson learned from someone who was not a teacher