Carrying a Baton

[Tez3]

civilians aren't going to find themselves fighting for their lives in a group,

Actually they are very likely to.
Liverpool football fans and Roma fans fight - Bing video

Two Roma fans held over 'attempted murder' as Liverpool fan left critically ill

That's the tip of the iceberg, wait until the football world cup in Moscow, there are going to be deaths.

Hitting a friend is not the point of my story, the point was missing the attacker.

 

[pdg]

Ah but as I said we've never had the handgun ownership there is in the US so we 'can't have our guns back', the articles telling us that we want our guns back are invariably American and hark back to a golden age of gun ownership in the UK that never happened. As you say though you want something new

It's not so much something new, as going back to something I have experience of.

Let's call it "pre dunblane".

At one time, I could legally own (and keep at home) a handgun/short pistol purely for target use, and I could (sensibly) use it on my own property, and carry it to and from the range (subject to certain conditions).

Now, I can't.

As a former homicide detective.....I also may have a little different perception of things

And that could very well be a huge reason that my perception is different to yours.

You spent your life dealing the absolute worst society can offer and the aftermath of those events, you were (I can only assume) only really called upon when things had gone seriously wrong - if you went through that occupation and thought everything was hunky dory I'd think there was something wrong with you For most of us, coming into contact with 'that sort of thing' is a rare to never event.

 

[pdg]

If you feel you reside in a place that you will never be in danger.....good luck, I hope you never do

I consider that I live in a place where I'm exceedingly unlikely to be put in enough danger to have to resort to lethal force.

It's so statistically unlikely that putting effort into preparing for that event is pretty much a waste of time.

It's more likely (although tbf, still very unlikely) that I might be put in a position where I have to defend myself, but not to the extent that shooting my way out is the only sensible option available.

 

[Tez3]

At one time, I could legally own (and keep at home) a handgun/short pistol purely for target use, and I could (sensibly) use it on my own property, and carry it to and from the range (subject to certain conditions).

Now, I can't.

That's a problem of democracy, not everyone gets to do what they want. probably just as well seeing the things I'd like!
However, you were in the minority in owning a handgun, the general population didn't nor wanted to, that was my point to the Americans who think we all had guns in the same way they do and lost them all suddenly. We never went from an armed country to an unarmed one.

I do think people who enjoy using guns on ranges might think differently if they'd had to shoot at real people or be shot at back. It's a unique situation to have metal wasps flying around your head and a traumatic experience to take a life even one who is intent on taking yours, you'd think there would be no feeling about it seeing as they tried to kill you but it's a powerful thing to kill someone.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Actually they are very likely to.
Liverpool football fans and Roma fans fight - Bing video

Two Roma fans held over 'attempted murder' as Liverpool fan left critically ill

That's the tip of the iceberg, wait until the football world cup in Moscow, there are going to be deaths.

Hitting a friend is not the point of my story, the point was missing the attacker.

Missing the attacker can happen with any weapon, or with your hands, as well.

The big fights over football (or any sport) are much less common around here, so I often forget about those. It usually takes a political or social issue to start a riot here, and those are far less predictable.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

the Americans who think we all had guns in the same way they do and lost them all suddenly.

Just wanted to point out that gun ownership is far from ubiquitous over here, in most areas. The region I live in, it's probably the majority of people, but far less in other areas. And most folks I've talked with understand that the UK never had the gun ownership level the US has.

 

[Flying Crane]

We all decide for ourselves the level of paranoia to which we subscribe. Nobody else can do that for us.

 

[pdg]

However, you were in the minority in owning a handgun, the general population didn't nor wanted to,

Yes, that's very true. There certainly weren't huge numbers of us. It's just a shame that 'our' legal enjoyment of a sporting hobby got absolutely decimated.

 

[Flying Crane]

And my first homicide case I worked was an 87 year old woman who managed to live 87 years without defending herself.

She lived out in the country In a rural area with almost no crime.....that didn’t stop the guy and girl that decided to rob her from stomping her to death after the robbery.

Nothing wrong with being prepared. If you choose not to be armed that’s fine. But again it’s nothing wrong with those that choose to have that option.

Somehow i suspect that if that 87 year old woman had been armed with anything other than a grenade with the pin already pulled, the results would have been the same.

 

[CB Jones]

I consider that I live in a place where I'm exceedingly unlikely to be put in enough danger to have to resort to lethal force.

It's so statistically unlikely that putting effort into preparing for that event is pretty much a waste of time.

It's more likely (although tbf, still very unlikely) that I might be put in a position where I have to defend myself, but not to the extent that shooting my way out is the only sensible option available.

Fair enough.

That’s the decision you choose to make.

We can what if it to death.

 

[CB Jones]

Somehow i suspect that if that 87 year old woman had been armed with anything other than a grenade with the pin already pulled, the results would have been the same.

I dunno....she had roughly 20-30 minutes laying on the floor of the living room while they went through her home looking for valuables to sell to buy crack.

After searching the house they went through her pockets and then stomped her to death before leaving.

Maybe had she she been armed they would have fled.....but that will never be known.

 

[pdg]

Maybe had she she been armed they would have fled.....but that will never be known

Exactly, we'll never know if the outcome could have been any different - if she had a gun she might have scared them off, or they might have 'dealt' with her first then made off with stuff they stole, plus a free gun...


The difference I was getting at is that here death by burglary is so rare that when it happens it makes the national news.

A quick look around suggests that I'm actually more likely to get struck by lightning than have my life properly threatened in my own home - and furthermore I'm more likely to die in a comedy style incident involving my trousers than to have my life properly threatened while out (I don't live in one of the major cities, and rarely go there, so stats saying how dangerous London might be aren't relevant).

 

[Tez3]

Yes, that's very true. There certainly weren't huge numbers of us. It's just a shame that 'our' legal enjoyment of a sporting hobby got absolutely decimated.

Did it though, I have ex RAF friends who keep shooting and don't seem to have problems, my OH doesn't either. I'll have to have a chat with them and see what they think.

 

[pdg]

Did it though, I have ex RAF friends who keep shooting and don't seem to have problems, my OH doesn't either. I'll have to have a chat with them and see what they think.

I'd like to know if you find out anything of interest - pm is fine if you'd prefer to not put it in a relatively unrelated thread.

 

[CB Jones]

A quick look around suggests that I'm actually more likely to get struck by lightning than have my life properly threatened in my own home - and furthermore I'm more likely to die in a comedy style incident involving my trousers than to have my life properly threatened while out

Ok good luck with that.

But on the other hand....nothing wrong with the person who doesn’t share your optimism and prefers to be armed just in case.

 

[pdg]

Ok good luck with that.

Why is it that every time I see that sort of comment in this sort of context I always asign a certain sarcasm to it?

Like if someone says "I'm going to try juggling tigers", I'd reply "ok, good luck with that".

But on the other hand....nothing wrong with the person who doesn’t share your optimism and prefers to be armed just in case.

I don't consider it optimism, it's more realism based on my societal environment.

Can you direct me to where I've said it's wrong to arm yourself?

My position has only been to question whether armaments are actually really necessary in the area in which people live, and if it really is necessary, to what extent.

 

[pdg]

Oh, and I haven't failed to notice that my "street lethal bare hand killing machine" comment was conveniently and completely ignored...

 

[Anarax]

Firstly, it could be said that if you get your fists out you've failed with 90+% of what defence should mean...
Going on from that, MA for self defence is usually about subjugation and/or escape.

Many Martial Artists and weapon carriers are taught deescalation techniques to avoid conflict. However, you can try to deescalate which is a great option, but still must defend yourself regardless. If we're talking about some guy you brushed shoulders with, then deescalation has a good chance of working. However, when it's a dedicated attacker(mugger, murder, rapist, kidnapper), deescalation will most likely not work. Unfortunately, some situations require use of force.
I was addressing your logic of "because it hasn't happened to me yet, thus I have no need for it". The point I made was, some people don't want to wait to see if it happens, some are more proactive.

Carrying a blade or a gun is up from there, it's no longer subjugation but dominance and destruction

Lawfully carrying a firearm is about self-defense. Responding with lethal force doesn't mean the carrier is more interested in shooting someone than they are about defending themselves. It means they are neutralizing the threat(self-defense) with lethal force against the attack directed at them.

Oddly, I can imagine the kind of response someone would get if they asked which art they should study to be able to kill anyone that confronts them with their bare hands - "I wanna be totes street lethal innit", or "what's the best way to break someone's neck?".

Your example is on the extreme side of the spectrum though. Already stated before, there are situational parameters for lawful use of a firearm, you can't just shoot someone for asking you what time is it. Many lawful weapon carriers are responsible individuals that understand the ramifications for using their firearm recklessly.

They would probably be ridiculed and told that's not what is considered self defence - and some of the people doing that would be the ones carrying guns...

Is it? How many MA styles have lethal techniques? I study Kali which is a weapons based system. Does that mean I'm only interested in stabbing people to death because I know how to use a knife?

In many countries those two are mutually exclusive. Carrying weapons isn't legal however proficient you are.

I know, I wanted to clarify the group I was referring to were trained with firearms in the US.

It does often seem like that though when you read what people say about why they want to carry a gun. It would appear in the UK as well as most of Europe and I suspect Australia as well as New Zealand to be not just paranoid but dangerous. To all our perceptions carrying weapons 'just in case' seems unnecessary because of the way we live, our countries and well, just everything. To us living in a country where you think you have to carry weapons is unimaginable. this is why I think so many comment on the 'gun thing' in the US, we simply cannot imagine doing it so it's weird to us.

Referring to reading people's reasons for carrying, there is a mixed bag when it comes to any group. I acknowledge that some who carry have different reasons than I might have. However, the overwhelming majority who lawfully carry are responsible.

To feel you have to carry weapons is something that many in the rest of the world don't understand at all and seems verging on madness or living in a war torn country hence there are many comments that weapon carrying people won't like or in turn don't understand.

I understand that people differ on the issue. However, when one actively questions people about it they in turn will get answers that they may not like either. Keeping it a discussion and preventing it from turning into an argument is the challenging part. I think one or both sides seeming more enlightened than the other is also a problem.

What led me to that is my interpretation of the OP being along the lines of "I must carry a weapon at all times, everyone is a threat"...

I don't see how "Is carrying a baton a good option to defend in rough situation, lets say you get attacked and you need to react to save yourself." can be interpreted that way.

It saddens me that some people's experience of their society leads them to see danger everywhere and need a weapon to feel a bit more secure.

It's not about seeing danger where ever you go, it's a precaution some take to prepare for a potential worst case scenario. Again, not everyone who carries have been victimized, some choose not to wait to see if and when it happens.

 

[pdg]

While it's true that I can only speculate as to what daily life is like when most people around you might be armed, I really don't think it's truly appreciated what it's like in an 'unarmed' society.

So here's a hypothetical question for the guys who say that I'm being overly optimistic and unprepared:

If you lived here (or a comparable location) and you knew (as I do) that the very vast majority of people are unarmed, and that violent crime outside of the metropolis is actually extremely rare (tbh, it's pretty rare there too) - would you still want to carry a weapon 'just in case'?

In this type of environment, do you think you could ever feel completely at ease going for a wander around town carrying nothing more than you car key and enough change in your pocket to buy a coffee?

I very often go out with nothing more than that (not even my phone) and never have cause to feel nervous in the slightest.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I'd like to see how a knife can be used to apply a joint lock with no inherent danger of cutting...

You've never seen a folding knife that wasn't open? You've never seen a fixed blade knife in a sheath? You've never seen a single edged knife?

You say you would prefer to face a bladed assailant over a club wielding one - while I can't understand your reasoning I can accept that as your opinion.

You might try re-reading what I've actually written. Because I never said that. Based on the type and severity of the injuries resulting from real world attacks with knives and batons, I'd place them at the same level of threat.