Planning for a Knife attack

[oftheherd1]

I'm sorry, I meant to write it in my post, but I meant besides guns.

If it is most likely that by the time I notice that I am being attacked that the attacker is right on top of me, how would a gun be of any help? Wouldn't a weapon that can be used easily at close range be more effective? This is of course assuming I can actually draw the weapon in time. However, if they open with the line "You killed my father, prepare to die." than I am going to assume they are a master swordsman and and run for my life!

general question: which situation would you least want to be in, and which would you prefer over the others: your hands vs knife, a baton vs knife, a knife vs knife? This is assuming that the distance has already closed, but you have had time to draw and present your weapon before the first strike is thrown.

another question: If the distance closes to fast for a gun to be used, is it any more likely that a knife, baton or other weapon of the kind can be used?

I always tell people that if you need a gun, you need it in your hand, not playing quick draw McGraw. I think it is the same for any other weapon. That doesn't negate anything jks9199 has said, except most people won't be carrying a gun in the manner he described, unless it is outside your clothing and you have a fast release holster and you are practiced using it; preferably under stress.

I have trained unarmed defense against a knife. I have learned some really good defenses. I still wouldn't want to have to use any of them if there were any way at all I could avoid it.

 

[Dirty Dog]

I always tell people that if you need a gun, you need it in your hand, not playing quick draw McGraw. I think it is the same for any other weapon. That doesn't negate anything jks9199 has said, except most people won't be carrying a gun in the manner he described, unless it is outside your clothing and you have a fast release holster and you are practiced using it; preferably under stress.

I have trained unarmed defense against a knife. I have learned some really good defenses. I still wouldn't want to have to use any of them if there were any way at all I could avoid it.

I also train unarmed defense. But part of the reason for doing so is to gain time and opportunity to access a weapon of my own. If I can keep you from killing me for a couple seconds, that is time enough to shoot you. (Note: That is a generic, not specific, you. I have no reason to think you personally would ever attack me.)

 

[oftheherd1]

I also train unarmed defense. But part of the reason for doing so is to gain time and opportunity to access a weapon of my own. If I can keep you from killing me for a couple seconds, that is time enough to shoot you. (Note: That is a generic, not specific, you. I have no reason to think you personally would ever attack me.)

Ahhhuuuh. I thought you were going to put some excitement in my life.

I don't doubt either you experience nor your training. But I think if you are close enough for me to get my hands on you (otherwise, of course, the situation changes), that would be a better tactic for me. Just my opinion. I have never had to put that into operation. The one time I considered it, (and I had not studied defensive tactics then) I was afraid of innocent bystanders being shot by an M-16 on auto. Probably saved my life. When it got to the point we scuffled, he was quite a scrapper and I don't know what would have happened if I had grabbed his weapon at first.

 

[Paul_D]

I don't tend to go anywhere that I will likely end up being attacked by someone with a knife, but why not be prepared?

You are unlikely to collapse and have a heart attack, but why not take a defribilator with you everywhere, why not be prepared?

 

[Dirty Dog]

You are unlikely to collapse and have a heart attack, but why not take a defribilator with you everywhere, why not be prepared?

Not the same thing at all. It is statistically unlikely that any individual will be attacked, but I have been, more than once. In part because my career choice puts me in contact with, and therefore at risk from, unstable people. This is one of many reasons why I have spent some much time and energy training for armed and unarmed combat.

You cannot use a defibrillator on yourself. You can, however, be prepared by exercising regularly, watching your diet, not smoking, not drinking to excess, and treating other controllable risk factors for cardiac disease such as high cholesterol and hypertension.

Protecting yourself is a good idea, whether it is against an attacker or a medical condition.

 

[Paul_D]

Protecting yourself is a good idea, whether it is against an attacker or a medical condition.

I didn't protecting yourself is not a good idea.

What I am saying is that protecting yourself agasint things which you admit are unlikely to happen, is not the best use of your time an effort. It is better to concentrate on proetcitng yourself from things which are likely to happen.

I live in the UK, I will almost certainly go my entire life without ever seeing a real gun, it woud be pointless then to wear a bullet proof vest everytime I leave the house on the off chance that something whcih is highly unliely to ever happen, might just happen. It woud make more sense to look at the crime staticts for where you live and look at what you are most likely to experience, and prepare for that.

 

[lklawson]

Ahhhuuuh. I thought you were going to put some excitement in my life.

I don't doubt either you experience nor your training. But I think if you are close enough for me to get my hands on you (otherwise, of course, the situation changes), that would be a better tactic for me.

Of course.

The cardinal rules for unarmed against a weapon are

1. get out of range
2. in case of failure of #1, control the weapon/weapon bearing limb

Because it's really hard to "get out of range" of a firearm, #2 looks like a really good option and everyone knows this. That's why Weapons Retention and Deployment While Under Attack are skills often taught to LEO and non-LEO SD Carry.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[NinjaChristian]

Since it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming with enough time to draw a weapon, it seems that the best defence is to know hand techniques to control the weapon bearing limb, than neutralize the threat, or at least gain enough distance to draw your own weapon or get away. Might be somewhat restating part iklawson's post.

 

[Tgace]

TDA Training: Of Knives, Guns and 21 feet (guest post by tgace)

1. You MUST solve the positional problem BEFORE you try to acquire your firearm and engage the threat. This means you may have to move off the line of threat, or go hands on with the threat until you can improve your position sufficiently to ensure that you have the time and space to draw and deliver deadly force.

2. You must RETAIN your weapon. SouthNarc teaches shooting from a high “two” position, with the pistol tucked in close to the body and the firing thumb indexed along the pectoral muscle. Support side arm in a horizontal or vertical “elbow shield”, utilizing the bone structure to provide sufficient space between you and your threat so you can work the trigger and not get foul the slide or get it forced out of battery.

3. It’s going to be hard, fast, and ugly.

4. If you stand still and try to draw your gun and pull the trigger while a big ape is stacking your sh**, you will not prevail.

5. Movement, strikes, and working to the flank, getting dominant position, and THEN lighting up the bad guy is the goal.



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[Jaeimseu]

I haven't read all the posts, but I hope you will reconsider. I'm not sure what your circumstances are or why you are planning to attack someone with a knife, but I am sure that there are better ways to deal with your problems.


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[oftheherd1]

Since it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming with enough time to draw a weapon, it seems that the best defence is to know hand techniques to control the weapon bearing limb, than neutralize the threat, or at least gain enough distance to draw your own weapon or get away. Might be somewhat restating part iklawson's post.

I am curious if that is true; that it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming. I think often an attacker may wish to brandish it for the fear it invokes, hoping to increase the chance to make the attack more effective. Granted you will not always see it coming, but just seeing someone approach with at least one hand hidden behind the back is an indication of some kind of weapon.

 

[oftheherd1]

TDA Training: Of Knives, Guns and 21 feet (guest post by tgace)

1. You MUST solve the positional problem BEFORE you try to acquire your firearm and engage the threat. This means you may have to move off the line of threat, or go hands on with the threat until you can improve your position sufficiently to ensure that you have the time and space to draw and deliver deadly force.

2. You must RETAIN your weapon. SouthNarc teaches shooting from a high “two” position, with the pistol tucked in close to the body and the firing thumb indexed along the pectoral muscle. Support side arm in a horizontal or vertical “elbow shield”, utilizing the bone structure to provide sufficient space between you and your threat so you can work the trigger and not get foul the slide or get it forced out of battery.

3. It’s going to be hard, fast, and ugly.

4. If you stand still and try to draw your gun and pull the trigger while a big ape is stacking your sh**, you will not prevail.

5. Movement, strikes, and working to the flank, getting dominant position, and THEN lighting up the bad guy is the goal.



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Excellent links. Worth a read by all. Thanks tgace.

 

[NinjaChristian]

I haven't read all the posts, but I hope you will reconsider. I'm not sure what your circumstances are or why you are planning to attack someone with a knife, but I am sure that there are better ways to deal with your problems.


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I am not planning to attack someone with a knife (nor would I ever) I am planning on how I might be prepared for a knife attack. read the first post.

 

[lklawson]

I haven't read all the posts, but I hope you will reconsider. I'm not sure what your circumstances are or why you are planning to attack someone with a knife, but I am sure that there are better ways to deal with your problems.


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Humor?

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[NinjaChristian]

I am curious if that is true; that it is unlikely to see a knife attack coming. I think often an attacker may wish to brandish it for the fear it invokes, hoping to increase the chance to make the attack more effective. Granted you will not always see it coming, but just seeing someone approach with at least one hand hidden behind the back is an indication of some kind of weapon.

I suppose it depends on where you live, and where you tend to be. I would hope, in any case, that I would see the knife, or at least be suspicious and aware of the attacker before the attack happens.
Another general question: is it possible, to defend against further injury(more stabs/slashes) after being being stabbed from behind? This is assuming that you are not aware of the attack and the only indication you have that something is up is a terrible pain in your side(or wherever you happen to be stabbed ) and perhaps a hand holding your shoulder at the moment of the pain; also assuming that the attacker is untrained(does not know the best way to incapacitate someone with a knife, just knows how to stab and slash at the trunk or whatever very quickly) but absolutely determined to make sure you don't get up. I am only saying against an untrained opponent because someone who has trained with a knife likely will know how to incapacitate someone with fewer stabs than someone who is just stabbing randomly at the trunk; making any reaction against a trained opponent when they attack you from behind seems unlikely, since they would be able to pinpoint a vital area and attack it. Though at this point it seems to me even against an untrained, sloppy attacker, that the chances of defending yourself after being injured are pretty slim.

 

[jks9199]

Most describe the feeling as being punched, and they are often unaware they've been stabbed until someone informs them that they are bleeding. Most people underestimate the speed, the surprise, and the violence of any attack -- especially a knife attack. Spend some time on the web; see what videos of knife attacks come up. Many if not all will be from prisons because that's one of the settings most likely to actually capture attacks on video...

(prison)
Video: Shocking knife attack caught on police body camera - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (Police body cam out of Belfast)

Look into "ambush defenses" -- the principles apply whether discussing an ambush grab & strike or stab. Your immediately goals include to minimize further damage and seek space to regroup and figure out what you need to do. It's harder than yo think...

 

[oftheherd1]

I suppose it depends on where you live, and where you tend to be. I would hope, in any case, that I would see the knife, or at least be suspicious and aware of the attacker before the attack happens.
Another general question: is it possible, to defend against further injury(more stabs/slashes) after being being stabbed from behind? This is assuming that you are not aware of the attack and the only indication you have that something is up is a terrible pain in your side(or wherever you happen to be stabbed ) and perhaps a hand holding your shoulder at the moment of the pain; also assuming that the attacker is untrained(does not know the best way to incapacitate someone with a knife, just knows how to stab and slash at the trunk or whatever very quickly) but absolutely determined to make sure you don't get up. I am only saying against an untrained opponent because someone who has trained with a knife likely will know how to incapacitate someone with fewer stabs than someone who is just stabbing randomly at the trunk; making any reaction against a trained opponent when they attack you from behind seems unlikely, since they would be able to pinpoint a vital area and attack it. Though at this point it seems to me even against an untrained, sloppy attacker, that the chances of defending yourself after being injured are pretty slim.

See the post of jks9199 above.

I have never been stabbed by nor threatened by a knife, so it is difficult to say exactly what I would do. For all I know I might start jumping up and down and screaming like a little kid. But I don't think so. I have some experience with being in threatening situations. I would hope, and expect, that if I am on my feet, I should be able to turn and engage an attacker who attacked me from behind. Then his attacks would be from the front, which I have some training in surviving.

As to having training with a knife and being able to put me on the ground, again, see what jks9199 said. Those who can instantly incapacitate or instantly kill with a knife are probably rare. But if avoidable, why would anyone want to take a chance?

 

[Tez3]

The video, although flagged as coming from the Belfast newspaper, is actually from the mainland. If it had been in NI the chap with the knife would have been shot as the PSNI are all armed, they also carry off duty as being a police officer in Northern Ireland is a dangerous career choice.

 

[jks9199]

The video, although flagged as coming from the Belfast newspaper, is actually from the mainland. If it had been in NI the chap with the knife would have been shot as the PSNI are all armed, they also carry off duty as being a police officer in Northern Ireland is a dangerous career choice.

Thanks for the clarification. I'm limited to the info that's in the link. I do wish they'd shown the video without so many interruptions...

 

[Dirty Dog]

I have never been stabbed by nor threatened by a knife, so it is difficult to say exactly what I would do. For all I know I might start jumping up and down and screaming like a little kid.

Which might not actually be a bad response... it could potentially distract the assailant, giving you an opportunity to run or attack while they're distracted. It could also, potentially, disable to attacker when they start laughing.
I bet Master Ken could do 10 minutes on how effective this technique could be...