Can you tell me anything about the logic behind chambering punches?

[Hanzou]

An application demo is not the same as the actual application of a technique. An application demo is like an explainer video. It lacks things like , timing, fight movement, baiting.
This is an applications demo. It explains

This is actual application. No explaining. Only showing actual application (non demo)

That is actually a limited application because you're not allowed to punch to the head in Kyokushin competitions, which leads towards deviations in hand placement and strikes,

 

[CB Jones]

Again, you are never formally taught the Boxer Cross, you are taught the Reverse punch. The techniques are NOT interchangeable, they are fundamentally different from each other. As I mentioned multiple posts ago, students informally adapted the reverse punch to mirror the Boxer's Cross because they quickly realized that the former is impractical against Western Boxing.

Disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion

Have a good night.

 

[JowGaWolf]

That is actually a limited application because you're not allowed to punch to the head in Kyokushin competitions, which leads towards deviations in hand placement and strikes,

It's still not a demo. It's still an application of a technique. Punching someone in the chest vs punching them in the face uses the same structure.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So why are Karate students taught the "formal position" instead of the actual technique?

Again, it's a starting point, and a drill - that's how I was taught every time I've been taught that. Some (like the BB in the video with the heavy bag) try to make it the actual application, but that's not how I was taught and doesn't make sense to me based on what works.

So, it's not that they are taught the formal position instead of the actual technique. The formal position is how they start learning the technique. Clearly, in some places, that's over-emphasized.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

You don't have to use the Boxing guard, you could always use this guard:

This way your chambered strike is ready to be unleashed!

You really like your version of the world, don't you? It doesn't matter what people tell you they've experienced and learned - you're just going to hold onto what you really want to be true, no matter what.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Er what? Why didn't you simply post a Boxer Cross instructional video as well?

Here, I'll help you out:

Muay Thai Cross:

Boxing Cross:

Differences?

This might just be me seeing a minor difference and giving it meaning, but the MT cross holds the hip back a tad and transfers weight squarely to the front leg, which would make it possible to raise that leg for a kick in combination. The boxing cross is only slightly different, but it would be much more difficult to raise that leg. I'm not much of a kicker, but I see that immediately between them.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's the training and the description (alongside a demonstration) of the application. They're not different.

I suppose the confusion arises when you're trained in this way ad nauseam, and then when you actually spar you realize it's next to impossible to actually hit anyone utilizing that method.

The instructor's rear hand is lower than I'd recommend (the demo partner is closer to what I'd use), but that clearly isn't the formal position. It doesn't move entirely into application, because they're repeating the same strike over and over (and that strike wouldn't be one you'd get to do twice in a row).

Oh, and as you can see, that one covers the moving beyond square - something that was brought up as a limitation of the jigotai drill earlier. I don't agree with the "always", but it makes the point.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That is never expressed in any kata or formal training. Within those contexts, the Reverse Punch ALWAYS begins with the hand chambered at the hip.

If by "formal training" you mean the formal position, that's correct as far as I know. But training goes well beyond the formal position.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Look at the rear foot. One foot pivots the other raises. That's a big difference. If all you are looking at is the punch then you'll miss the reality and that reality is that these are not the same punches. You can see structurally that these are not same punches. When you look at the muay thai fighter from the fight you can see that his stance is not the same as a boxers stance.

We're starting to get into the discussion from that stance thread, now.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Again, you are never formally taught the Boxer Cross, you are taught the Reverse punch. The techniques are NOT interchangeable, they are fundamentally different from each other. As I mentioned multiple posts ago, students informally adapted the reverse punch to mirror the Boxer's Cross because they quickly realized that the former is impractical against Western Boxing.

No, you're confusing "formal position" with "what is taught". Students are taught from the formal position as a starting point and for specific drills. Instructors coach the progression to application.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

LoL! You mean him pivoting to his tip-toes because he was punching someone taller than him?

It's laughable that you think there's a structural difference there. That is literally the exact same punch with the difference coming into play because the MT guy is punching a higher target.

I can't remember, Hanzou - does your background include training in kicks?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Disagree, but you are entitled to your opinion

Have a good night.

Not really even an opinion. He's stating what others are not trained in, without really knowing what they are trained in.

 

[Hanzou]

His lead foot stays flat so his height does not change. Do you punch on your tippy toes when someone is taller than you?

His lead foot can remain flat because you get a height increase off of your back foot. Try it sometime.

Irregardless, the point is, you can use the Boxer cross when someone is trying to kick you. MMA, Kickboxing, etc. all use the Boxer Cross OVER the Reverse Punch from Karate.

 

[Hanzou]

I can't remember, Hanzou - does your background include training in kicks?

Yes. I have a 2nd degree BB in Shotokan.

 

[Hanzou]

Again, it's a starting point, and a drill - that's how I was taught every time I've been taught that. Some (like the BB in the video with the heavy bag) try to make it the actual application, but that's not how I was taught and doesn't make sense to me based on what works.

So, it's not that they are taught the formal position instead of the actual technique. The formal position is how they start learning the technique. Clearly, in some places, that's over-emphasized.

And again, I was taught that it is a technique that has application in actual fighting. I was never taught the Boxer Cross until I actually took Boxing some years later. Obviously I'm not the only one who was taught in this fashion as others in this thread and the videos I've posted have shown.

 

[Hanzou]

You really like your version of the world, don't you? It doesn't matter what people tell you they've experienced and learned - you're just going to hold onto what you really want to be true, no matter what.

What's the problem? That is an actual fighting stance in traditional Karate.

Yeah it's an impractical mess, but that's because it is designed around utilizing heavily chambered strikes like the Reverse Punch. It isn't the only one that does this either, and there's plenty of Karate schools around the world that waste time teaching impractical silliness like that.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yes. I have a 2nd degree BB in Shotokan.

Okay, just wanted to make sure before I asked this - do you see the point I was making about the difference in the two crosses you posted? One of those I couldn't kick from. One I could. You're probably better trained at kicks than me, so I'd expect it to be at least as clear to you.

Otherwise, they are nearly identical, to my eye.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

And again, I was taught that it is a technique that has application in actual fighting. I was never taught the Boxer Cross until I actually took Boxing some years later. Obviously I'm not the only one who was taught in this fashion as others in this thread and the videos I've posted have shown.

That's what I was getting at in something earlier. You're generalizing your experience to all Karate. Even in the brief time I was training in Shotokan, I was always aware that this was a formal position for starting/studying, and not the application. The actual application would be much closer to a boxer's cross (I didn't really know what that was back then, so wouldn't have been able to make that statement at the time) with a karate guard (like what was shown in the MMA video someone posted).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

What's the problem? That is an actual fighting stance in traditional Karate.

Not as I was taught it. And not as I've seen it used by folks with a lot more Karate training than me. That's the point.

Yeah it's an impractical mess, but that's because it is designed around utilizing heavily chambered strikes like the Reverse Punch. It isn't the only one that does this either, and there's plenty of Karate schools around the world that waste time teaching impractical silliness like that.

I don't doubt it. I've seen silliness in a lot of areas of life - why should MA be any different. But that doesn't make the silliness the only way, nor does it make it "the way".

 

[Hanzou]

It's still not a demo. It's still an application of a technique. Punching someone in the chest vs punching them in the face uses the same structure.

Eh, the Kyokushin fighters had a different structure than those guys in that video. However, I will give those Karate guys credit for at least resembling Karate as it is trained when they're actually fighting.