Can You Fight with Tai Chi?

[Anthony Walmsley]

I am sorry I do not mean sparring as competition or going to MMA or San Shou. That is a guage for your skill but not a training method. I see practicing defense drills, Push hands variations,Chi Sau and Sparring with your class mates as training methods to being able to use your Tai Chi. The more you use your Tai Chi in light or heavy sparring the more you will learn from expereince. I don't mean sparring someone who is trying to take your eye out or knock you unconscious. But sparring in matter where you trade techniques and learn how to use your CMA. I don't mean you go for throat chokes,leg and arm breaks, You may be able to demostrate where you could have done that technique and this technique. To your friend or family member but it doesn't mean your trying to knock them or hit them for points.

Usually you spar flowing from one technique to another. Light contact
Is all you need to realize the technique. I think more you spar in fast pace. It will get you use to a scenario where you have to fight at a fast pace. This will increase your understandin.

I am afraid we are speaking about different things; I repeat, 'sports' training methods do not address the problems of a person who wishes to learn 'Self Defense'. Participating in any form of competition is not only potentially dangerous but can never simulate an unexpected, brutal assault by one or more persons; this requires specific training.
It is for this reason that I am attempting to understand exactly what is meant by the the terms 'fight', 'combat situation', 'sparring' etc., used in messages here.

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am afraid we are speaking about different things; I repeat, 'sports' training methods do not address the problems of a person who wishes to learn 'Self Defense'. Participating in any form of competition is not only potentially dangerous but can never simulate an unexpected, brutal assault by one or more persons; this requires specific training.
It is for this reason that I am attempting to understand exactly what is meant by the the terms 'fight', 'combat situation', 'sparring' etc., used in messages here.

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha

I would not believe for a minute that the majority of taiji people out there could fight their way out of a paper bag. However if you do train Taiji correctly you can in fact defend yourself rather well but so very few train it correctly or have the patience to take the time (we are talking years) and taiji is far from something like Sanshou in it's approach to a "fight". I have trained Police/Military Sanda and it is by far a lot more offensive than taiji. However I know from experience that my Sanda sifu who is in his 40s is quite capable of defending himself in just about any SD situation as is my taiji sifu who is in his 70s. But the training that my taiji sifu did was incredibly different than what most do today. I am trying to get close to his understanding but where he saw his sifu 5 to 7 times a week and trained tuishou constantly in as he advanced I get to see him only once a week and it is incredibly difficult in my area to find anyone that is truly interested in Tuishou beyond the stationary single and double hand without applications. By the way both the Sanda I trained and the Taiji I train use Tuishou training but it is not the same.

But with that said in an attack I know for a fact that absorb and redirect works rather well as does the qinna I learned form my sifu

Also as a final addition I would say that if you find a legitimate Zhaobao teacher/student that it is likely they are pretty effective as a fighter. The same goes for Chen but that number is rapidly dwindling and Yang style I would say that there are next to none that do SD as compared to those that don’t. And there are a few that have taken the taiji form they learned and combined it with another style and they call it taiji and even though it may be effective it is most certainly not taiji.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Okay let me make a scenario....Not going to a sport competition to get ranked. But lets say you go tai chi class. You do push hands an the whole nine. But you still are not sure how your techniques will come together in actual combat. Now depending on your skill level you may need the following:
1.Head Gear with face shield
2.Mouth Piece
3.Cup
4.Chest guard

An you and a class mate close to your level spars with equipment on using only Tai Chi Techniques. In other word you trade techniques using speed and power but not to much where you injure one another. Now lets say you use medium strength which would be alot more painful with out a helment. But with helment it just feels like tap. This what you want to do. Get your practice using Tai Chi with out hurting one another so you can see how it all comes together with out hurting one another...You spar to learn and feel and to grow your techniques. not beat up your sparring partner or injure him like they do in competitons. Your sparring partner may be a classmate. Or maybe someone you know from another style...


This is what I mean by sparring...

I am afraid we are speaking about different things; I repeat, 'sports' training methods do not address the problems of a person who wishes to learn 'Self Defense'. Participating in any form of competition is not only potentially dangerous but can never simulate an unexpected, brutal assault by one or more persons; this requires specific training.
It is for this reason that I am attempting to understand exactly what is meant by the the terms 'fight', 'combat situation', 'sparring' etc., used in messages here.

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha

 

[jarrod]

i fight with tai chi every time i try to do my form. so far, tai chi wins everytime.

jf

 

[Yoshiyahu]

I love your answer...ha ha lol...great...

Tai Chi kicking your ****...

Stick and move...

i fight with tai chi every time i try to do my form. so far, tai chi wins everytime.

jf

 

[Anthony Walmsley]

Okay let me make a scenario....Not going to a sport competition to get ranked. But lets say you go tai chi class. You do push hands an the whole nine. But you still are not sure how your techniques will come together in actual combat. Now depending on your skill level you may need the following:
1.Head Gear with face shield
2.Mouth Piece
3.Cup
4.Chest guard

And you and a class mate close to your level spars with equipment on using only Tai Chi Techniques. In other word you trade techniques using speed and power but not to much where you injure one another. Now lets say you use medium strength which would be alot more painful with out a helment. But with helment it just feels like tap. This what you want to do. Get your practice using Tai Chi with out hurting one another so you can see how it all comes together with out hurting one another...You spar to learn and feel and to grow your techniques. not beat up your sparring partner or injure him like they do in competitons. Your sparring partner may be a classmate. Or maybe someone you know from another style...


This is what I mean by sparring...

The methods you suggest are the opposite of those I teach. I teach - to those who are interested - Taijiquan as a Self Defense art. From the first lesson, students are introduced to not only Qigong, a 'form' and Tui Shou but also:
Two person 'Attack/Defense' methods.
Bag and Focus Mitt work.
Falling, rolling and break-falling.
ChinNa with take-downs and throws.
YinYang Symbol Tui Shou.
Pentagonal stepping methods.
Impact training.
Introduction to Vital Point Manipulation.
Wide Angle Peripheral Vision training.
Spontaneous Reflex Responses.
Fa Jin.
No protection is used; the partner training progresses from 'controlled' striking to full out attacks with the 'attacker' using as much physical power as possible. This applies to all students no matter their age, sex or physical size.
The list above does not include everything taught but is a reasonable overview of the training.

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha

 

[Xue Sheng]

1.Head Gear with face shield
2.Mouth Piece
3.Cup
4.Chest guard

Then no because that list right there my sifu's sifu would never have thought of and my sifu would think was pretty funny as would my Sanda sifu. But to quote my old TKD teacher, you don't have that in a fight why do you need it here.

Your looking at taiji sparing as a boxing or karate match were 2 people stand there an duke it out toe to toe and that is not how taiji will approach a fight. It tends to like to be close and it is rather hard to use Qinna wearing boxing gloves.

My Sanda Sifu sparred during his training in China but there was no protection because there would be none in reality and people got hurt. My Taiji Sifu did a lot of Tuishou and what we would call free style tuishou (he just calls tuishou) that is more like Taiji sparring it is using what you know in taiji up close and personal. And I can tell you from experience that you REALLY need to keep control of your opponent because that back fist hurts.

I would love to be able to suggest to you Tung Ying Chieh's Red book but the English translation is horrible But there is a book by Fu Zhongwen I am told is rather good and of course the book by Yang Chengfu is a good one as well and these may give you a better understanding. Also there is a book by Yang Jwing Ming called "Tai Chi Secrets of the Yang Style: Chinese Classics, Translations" that is pretty good as well and gives some ideas to how taiji approaches a fight from Yang Banhou

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Your School sounds exceptional...No thats what i am talking about just great...keep it up....

The methods you suggest are the opposite of those I teach. I teach - to those who are interested - Taijiquan as a Self Defense art. From the first lesson, students are introduced to not only Qigong, a 'form' and Tui Shou but also:
Two person 'Attack/Defense' methods.
Bag and Focus Mitt work.
Falling, rolling and break-falling.
ChinNa with take-downs and throws.
YinYang Symbol Tui Shou.
Pentagonal stepping methods.
Impact training.
Introduction to Vital Point Manipulation.
Wide Angle Peripheral Vision training.
Spontaneous Reflex Responses.
Fa Jin.
No protection is used; the partner training progresses from 'controlled' striking to full out attacks with the 'attacker' using as much physical power as possible. This applies to all students no matter their age, sex or physical size.
The list above does not include everything taught but is a reasonable overview of the training.

Anthony Walmsley.
www.wau.it/haha

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Very interesting discussion...Well I see your point...thanks for the books...I will have to get me a book fund started and invest sometime soon...But the reason Why I saying what I said about protective gear is to get use you using Tai Chi palm stirkes and fist. Its a good way to use your strikes and blocks and wave hands like clouds...As for Chin Na techniques...of course I practice those separately...or we do light sparring with out gear on...where we lightly tap the head or use medium force on the body...but the idea is never to hurt or injure your partner...its about self control but getting the practice in. A person who fights has experience. Thats what its about...Its about flowing application.
As for what you don't have in a fight...you are so correct...the idea is to build up...Some techniques in Wing Chun I don't use while sparring because I don't want to hurt my sparring partner. But with a helment and shield I can use those techniques. With protective eye googles I use other techniques. and get the practice of using or performing the moves....

Thats all I am saying maybe know one really understands me...its cool...

Then no because that list right there my sifu's sifu would never have thought of and my sifu would think was pretty funny as would my Sanda sifu. But to quote my old TKD teacher, you don't have that in a fight why do you need it here.

Your looking at taiji sparing as a boxing or karate match were 2 people stand there an duke it out toe to toe and that is not how taiji will approach a fight. It tends to like to be close and it is rather hard to use Qinna wearing boxing gloves.

My Sanda Sifu sparred during his training in China but there was no protection because there would be none in reality and people got hurt. My Taiji Sifu did a lot of Tuishou and what we would call free style tuishou (he just calls tuishou) that is more like Taiji sparring it is using what you know in taiji up close and personal. And I can tell you from experience that you REALLY need to keep control of your opponent because that back fist hurts.

I would love to be able to suggest to you Tung Ying Chieh's Red book but the English translation is horrible But there is a book by Fu Zhongwen I am told is rather good and of course the book by Yang Chengfu is a good one as well and these may give you a better understanding. Also there is a book by Yang Jwing Ming called "Tai Chi Secrets of the Yang Style: Chinese Classics, Translations" that is pretty good as well and gives some ideas to how taiji approaches a fight from Yang Banhou

 

[Xue Sheng]

Very interesting discussion...Well I see your point...thanks for the books...I will have to get me a book fund started and invest sometime soon...But the reason Why I saying what I said about protective gear is to get use you using Tai Chi palm stirkes and fist. Its a good way to use your strikes and blocks and wave hands like clouds...As for Chin Na techniques...of course I practice those separately...or we do light sparring with out gear on...where we lightly tap the head or use medium force on the body...but the idea is never to hurt or injure your partner...its about self control but getting the practice in. A person who fights has experience. Thats what its about...Its about flowing application.
As for what you don't have in a fight...you are so correct...the idea is to build up...Some techniques in Wing Chun I don't use while sparring because I don't want to hurt my sparring partner. But with a helment and shield I can use those techniques. With protective eye googles I use other techniques. and get the practice of using or performing the moves....

Thats all I am saying maybe know one really understands me...its cool...

In Sanda we used one of these to practice strikes Blocks and kicks. In Taiji I have used this and this as well as one of these

The idea, IMO, when you are talking Neijia is control. Learn how to control your body and your mind and after that then sparing...maybe

And please tell me when you are sparing you are not hoping around like a western boxer, particularly using taiji.

 

[JadecloudAlchemist]

That tree looks like a formidable opponent.

Trees don't run they stand their ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3l2a_ESwPc&feature=PlayList&p=FBBC07D320E509CF&playnext=1&index=18

hehe

 

[Xue Sheng]

That tree looks like a formidable opponent.

Trees don't run they stand their ground.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3l2a_ESwPc&feature=PlayList&p=FBBC07D320E509CF&playnext=1&index=18

hehe

:lol:

Bunch of sissys...real men take them down with thier FISTS

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Sounds excellent...Great...i love this post...


Tell me more about control the control of your body and mind?

In Sanda we used one of these to practice strikes Blocks and kicks. In Taiji I have used this and this as well as one of these

The idea, IMO, when you are talking Neijia is control. Learn how to control your body and your mind and after that then sparing...maybe

And please tell me when you are sparing you are not hoping around like a western boxer, particularly using taiji.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Sounds excellent...Great...i love this post...


Tell me more about control the control of your body and mind?

Sorry no… it is discussed in the books I recommended.

And I must think you for something. In another discussion we were having I posted a view my Sanda Sifu would likely have about Neijia and Waijia and I thought about that for awhile and it brought back some old school thinking abut my training that I did not realize I had forgotten and how much it was missed….. OK thinking a lot about that and hearing an old song by AC/DC this morning while still thinking about that… but it was that discussion that trigged it

Thanks :asian:

 

[Xue Sheng]

I will say it has to do with Sandao.. in part

 

[Flying Crane]

I haven't read EVERYTHING in the thread so far, but I've perused a lot of the answers. If my comments have already been made by others here, then I apologise for being repetitive.

keep in mind, taiji is not just the forms, and the forms do not all move slowly. It's my understanding that even Yang style has very fast forms as well, but most people never learned them so they have become a bit of a rarity nowadays. Chen style of course has very explosive movements in the forms, and the forms tend to be done faster than what most Westerners would recognize as taiji if they've only seen mainstream Yang.

Also, I believe that at least a number of years back before it started to become a tourist attraction, the Chen village engaged in some heavy training including serious technique application, hitting heavy bags, weight training and conditioning and the like. In short, they trained like any other serious martial artist would. It wasn't that just doing this form slowly would magically turn you into a skilled fighter. Rather, it was a lot of hard training, including stuff with heavy contact, and also including forms training, that develops one's skills.

Today, in the West, most people don't practice taiji in this way. They just do the form, and they tend to only do the slow forms, and they feel that is enough. But to become a good martial artist, the full range of training is important.

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Your Welcome I am glad to share that with you...I have actually been studing this book calle T'ai Chi Chuan "becoming one with the Tao" by Petra & Toyo Kobayashi....


Pretty basic stuff.

Sorry no… it is discussed in the books I recommended.

And I must think you for something. In another discussion we were having I posted a view my Sanda Sifu would likely have about Neijia and Waijia and I thought about that for awhile and it brought back some old school thinking abut my training that I did not realize I had forgotten and how much it was missed….. OK thinking a lot about that and hearing an old song by AC/DC this morning while still thinking about that… but it was that discussion that trigged it

Thanks :asian:

 

[Yoshiyahu]

Wow thats Excellent Post..I really enjoyed that...

I haven't read EVERYTHING in the thread so far, but I've perused a lot of the answers. If my comments have already been made by others here, then I apologise for being repetitive.

keep in mind, taiji is not just the forms, and the forms do not all move slowly. It's my understanding that even Yang style has very fast forms as well, but most people never learned them so they have become a bit of a rarity nowadays. Chen style of course has very explosive movements in the forms, and the forms tend to be done faster than what most Westerners would recognize as taiji if they've only seen mainstream Yang.

Also, I believe that at least a number of years back before it started to become a tourist attraction, the Chen village engaged in some heavy training including serious technique application, hitting heavy bags, weight training and conditioning and the like. In short, they trained like any other serious martial artist would. It wasn't that just doing this form slowly would magically turn you into a skilled fighter. Rather, it was a lot of hard training, including stuff with heavy contact, and also including forms training, that develops one's skills.

Today, in the West, most people don't practice taiji in this way. They just do the form, and they tend to only do the slow forms, and they feel that is enough. But to become a good martial artist, the full range of training is important.

 

[Laoshi77]

Having finally read all of the posts regarding the question 'Can you fight with Taiji'? Personally I think Taijiquan is an elusive system that enables the practitioner to be difficult to strike, grab and/or pin; this is what I love most about Taijiquan.

Obviously there are some strikes but I find Taiji to be mostly defensive and used to subdue rather than merely attack.

Hope that makes sense?!

 

[pete]

... I think Taijiquan is an elusive system that enables the practitioner to be difficult to strike, grab and/or pin; this is what I love most about Taijiquan.

Obviously there are some strikes but I find Taiji to be mostly defensive and used to subdue rather than merely attack.

yes, that 'elusiveness' is key element found in tai chi as a direct result of 'yielding' - not offering your opponent anything substantial to grab on to or strike... as if they are grabbing, striking, or pushing against water.

BUT... that is only half the equation... being 'mostly defensive' would make one 'mostly yin', or deficient in yang - not in balance, not tai chi.

To fight with tai chi one must learn to coordinate giving and receiving, in equal measure at all times to remain in balance and not develop either excess or deficiency. Offense must accompany Defense, so that there is Yin within Yang & Yang within Yin.

Pete.