Can Karate Stand a Chance Against Aikido?

[Paul_D]

That was a poorly executed wrestling hip tossof

So techniques can only exist within one system? And that looked nothing like the Aikido technique cut into the video prior to him excuting it?

It would look like a guy doing something recognisably aikido

Which it did.

on an opponent that is fighting back.

That isn't what you asked for. You asked for Aikido used in real combat, which is what you got. Now you want to move the goalposts so you can dismiss this video. Like I said, you will find an excuse to dismiss any evidence presented, making presenting any evidence an exercise in futility.

Does someone trying to punch you not qualify as fighting back?

Aikido, from my limited understanding, works on people who are unbalanced, either by the practitioner, or in this case the guy lost his own balance, allowing the technique to be performed. Now you are saying it doesn't count and the guy has to be on balance so he can resist. Then no, it doesn't work. You have to unbalance your opponent. Aikido also has atemi, so you can hit to unbalance before applying a lock or throw. Oh wait, no you can't, because that would be a "poorly executed boxing punch, not Aikido". Silly me.

 

[Martial D]

So techniques can only exist within one system? And that looked nothing like the Aikido technique cut into the video prior to him excuting it?

Which it did.

That isn't what you asked for. You asked for Aikido used in real combat, which is what you got. Now you want to move the goalposts so you can dismiss this video. Like I said, you will find an excuse to dismiss any evidence presented, making presenting any evidence an exercise in futility.

Does someone trying to punch you not qualify as fighting back?

Aikido, from my limited understanding, works on people who are unbalanced, either by the practitioner, or in this case the guy lost his own balance, allowing the technique to be performed. Now you are saying it doesn't count and the guy has to be on balance so he can resist. Then no, it doesn't work. You have to unbalance your opponent. Aikido also has atemi, so you can hit to unbalance before applying a lock or throw. Oh wait, no you can't, because that would be a "poorly executed boxing punch, not Aikido". Silly me.

How is 'in real combat' different than 'opponent is fighting back'?

Same goalpost placement.

In the clip, the aikido man is using a wrist technique to flip his opponent, while in the fight video the guy flips him over his hip as he is already falling. You might be able to say that move is also found in aikido, but it's certainly not the same move.

 

[Paul_D]

How is 'in real combat' different than 'opponent is fighting back'?

You tell me. You asked for real combat, then claimed it didn't count as the guy wasn't fighting back.

In the clip, the aikido man is using a wrist technique to flip his opponent, while in the fight video the guy flips him over his hip as he is already falling. You might be able to say that move is also found in aikido, but it's certainly not the same move.

Correct. But again, you didn't ask for the same move being used, you asked for aikido.

 

[Paul_D]

In the clip, the aikido man is using a wrist technique to flip his opponent,

Writs techniques are not used to flip people. They are used to apply wrist locks, it is just that Aikido students chose to break fall out of them with a flip. Once you reach the point where damage will happen (unless you do something) the student break falls out of the technique. There is no reason (that I know) that you can’t do a break fall without a flip (which is what I do if I am ever on a seminar that includes Aikido) it’s just that Aikido students are taught break falls with flips so that’s what they do. So you will never see a live (real) situation where someone flips from a wrist technique, unless the bad guy also happens to be an aikido student.


I do think it creates a lot of misunderstanding though, that isn’t necessary. Because Aikido students deliberately throw themselves out of techniques with such ostentatious flips it is easy to see why people thinks it’s BS as “he’s just throwing himself”. Well yes he is throwing himself, because he has to do something before he gets injured, and that is what he/she has been taught to do. But that doesn’t mean the technique is designed to flip you.

If they chose to just perform a normal Judo/Ju Jitsu style break fall with no flip it might help lessen some of the misunderstanding and criticism .

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Writs techniques are not used to flip people. They are used to apply wrist locks, it is just that Aikido students chose to break fall out of them with a flip. Once you reach the point where damage will happen (unless you do something) the student break falls out of the technique. There is no reason (that I know) that you can’t do a break fall without a flip (which is what I do if I am ever on a seminar that includes Aikido) it’s just that Aikido students are taught break falls with flips so that’s what they do. So you will never see a live (real) situation where someone flips from a wrist technique, unless the bad guy also happens to be an aikido student.


I do think it creates a lot of misunderstanding though, that isn’t necessary. Because Aikido students deliberately throw themselves out of techniques with such ostentatious flips it is easy to see why people thinks it’s BS as “he’s just throwing himself”. Well yes he is throwing himself, because he has to do something before he gets injured, and that is what he/she has been taught to do. But that doesn’t mean the technique is designed to flip you.

If they chose to just perform a normal Judo/Ju Jitsu style break fall with no flip it might help lessen some of the misunderstanding and criticism .

Agreed. I suspect some of it may date back to a time of more aggressive application of the locks. I normally do Judo-style falls. Give me an aggressive kote gaeshi, though, and I'll flip without thinking about it, as it releases the lock much faster and more completely.

 

[JP3]

So then in a real combat situation aikido people don't actually use aikido? Because that wasn't aikido. That was a poorly executed wrestling hip toss while the other guy stumbled over himself.

Yes, I would accept evidence. It would look like a guy doing something recognisably aikido on an opponent that is fighting back.

But, let's say I show it to you, but you don't know what it is that you are seeing? Then where do we get? I'm referring to when you wrote "guy doing something recognisably aikido ."

Random guy in a crowd doesn't like Gerry's face (which I can understand), so charges him and Gerry can't just evade to the side and watch him go by. By necessity due to lack of lateral escapability/mobility, he's forced to engage directly. Big Alabama superpunch coming in and Gerry turns as it comes in, hand keeping it off his face the turn getting him offline of the blow dropping his center and the guy literally runs up his back. Gerry pops his hips and continues the turn and the guy goes for a ride.

Aikido being used? Argueable,depending on your definition of aikido and what it is, which is a big debate on here... mostly by non-aikido folks. There is some internal dispute as well, mind.

For me, definitely aikido principles with judo technique. For Gerry, maybe, but maybe not. For some of the other few aikido guys/gals on her, probably to certainly not because of the range. For you? I've no clue. You tell me.

 

[JP3]

Agreed. I suspect some of it may date back to a time of more aggressive application of the locks. I normally do Judo-style falls. Give me an aggressive kote gaeshi, though, and I'll flip without thinking about it, as it releases the lock much faster and more completely.

Absolutely. That release speed gets you out of something that simple falling at gravitational acceleration can't do sometimes. The kotegaeshi (wrist twist) thing can happen so fast to someone with unflexible wrists that a tendon is torn or one of the carpal bones shears before they even realize it's happening. You've got to be switched on. I've been in hapkido class when it happened n two separate occasions... but people still try to deny that it can happen.

For Drop... yes, you've got to "get" the wrist first, and that's not as easy as people try to convey. I know that. But, once got?

 

[JP3]

What you're hoping to see won't be easy to see. If the other guy is fighting back against the technique, the principles that make Aikido look like Aikido won't be in use. And most Aikido techniques can be applied without that subset of principles. On top of that, Aikido in the dojo uses movements designed to work with the falls uke uses (to help protect uke) - the guy in the street won't use those falls, so the technique will finish differently. Thus, the result will often not "look like" Aikido, if you are comparing it to what Aikido looks like in the dojo.

A thought.

Gerry, does your NGA have the concept that "Nothing ever works..." in it? We talk about that all the time, that the first technique is to start the process but you have to be surprised when suddenly uke is gone, down, or broken. It's a building kuzushi paradigm, straight across from judo. Touch that, uke reacts. Touch the opposite side/direction, uke reacts even more abruptly. So on and so forth. Most catastrophic with a guy delivering a committed uppercut in my own experience.

Kick defense is.... well... get out of the way and poke them and watch people fall down. Get hit, you hurt bad. Don't get hit, they fall down most of the time. Coming out of TKD myself, it was frustrating to learn how easy, if the guy facing you knows what is capable of happening, what he can do to you.

 

[Tired_Yeti]

Yep. And after you determine the rules by which the match will be fought, you have to figure out how you will determine how you will pick two martial artists that are evenly matched. Not easy any time, but especially when trying to compare striking arts against grappling arts. And what type of Karate are you talking about? Some of them have a lot of grappling.

When you are watching a demo, as described by Tony Dismukes, you can't expect the same thing in a free technique-use confrontation. Then how do you account for who might be having a good day against the other who may be a little better, but having a bad day.

Bottom line, there really isn't much to gain from attempting to compare one martial art against another.

^^^This is an example of over-thinking an issue.

We all know what the OP was trying to ask. He just didn't know how to word the question.

All things being equal, can a practitioner of a certain proficiency level of a striking art defeat a practitioner of an identical proficiency in Aikido in actual combat where incapacitation is the winning factor?
Yes or no?

The answer, possibly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Martial D]

But, let's say I show it to you, but you don't know what it is that you are seeing? Then where do we get? I'm referring to when you wrote "guy doing something recognisably aikido ."

Random guy in a crowd doesn't like Gerry's face (which I can understand), so charges him and Gerry can't just evade to the side and watch him go by. By necessity due to lack of lateral escapability/mobility, he's forced to engage directly. Big Alabama superpunch coming in and Gerry turns as it comes in, hand keeping it off his face the turn getting him offline of the blow dropping his center and the guy literally runs up his back. Gerry pops his hips and continues the turn and the guy goes for a ride.

Aikido being used? Argueable,depending on your definition of aikido and what it is, which is a big debate on here... mostly by non-aikido folks. There is some internal dispute as well, mind.

For me, definitely aikido principles with judo technique. For Gerry, maybe, but maybe not. For some of the other few aikido guys/gals on her, probably to certainly not because of the range. For you? I've no clue. You tell me.

I admittedly would not recognize Aikido in action the way someone that has trained in the art would, nor am I one of those that has written the style off(as so many have). If anything, I think perhaps there is gold buried under a lot of impractical training. I do realize that there are many schools and what and how they train is not equal by any means(such as is the case for almost every single traditional style)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A thought.

Gerry, does your NGA have the concept that "Nothing ever works..." in it? We talk about that all the time, that the first technique is to start the process but you have to be surprised when suddenly uke is gone, down, or broken. It's a building kuzushi paradigm, straight across from judo. Touch that, uke reacts. Touch the opposite side/direction, uke reacts even more abruptly. So on and so forth. Most catastrophic with a guy delivering a committed uppercut in my own experience.

Kick defense is.... well... get out of the way and poke them and watch people fall down. Get hit, you hurt bad. Don't get hit, they fall down most of the time. Coming out of TKD myself, it was frustrating to learn how easy, if the guy facing you knows what is capable of happening, what he can do to you.

We do have that same concept. It's one of the parts students sometimes struggle to grasp. Some of the "complicated" techniques are actually partly training for keeping moving through several "misses". So, when it looks like we're doing too many moves before we finish them, it's often for that purpose - to keep attacking structure until a finish presents itself.

The better I get, the more often I notice myself leaving a technique partway in, because a better-situated technique presented itself.

 

[oftheherd1]

^^^This is an example of over-thinking an issue.

We all know what the OP was trying to ask. He just didn't know how to word the question.

All things being equal, can a practitioner of a certain proficiency level of a striking art defeat a practitioner of an identical proficiency in Aikido in actual combat where incapacitation is the winning factor?
Yes or no?

The answer, possibly.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I don't think that is over-thinking the issue at all. How can you possibly determine identical proficiency? I am a Hapkidoist. I am taught many techniques, and I am taught to defend myself without being injured. I am taught to defend against punches, kicks, grapples; basically anywhere you touch me or try to touch me, I have defenses. The only rule is to not lose. How do you get identical proficiency in a striking art?

That's not a put down on striking arts. If a Karate practitioner is grossly faster, I may have a problem. But then was the Karate practitioner not above me in proficiency??

 

[drop bear]

But, let's say I show it to you, but you don't know what it is that you are seeing? Then where do we get? I'm referring to when you wrote "guy doing something recognisably aikido ."

Random guy in a crowd doesn't like Gerry's face (which I can understand), so charges him and Gerry can't just evade to the side and watch him go by. By necessity due to lack of lateral escapability/mobility, he's forced to engage directly. Big Alabama superpunch coming in and Gerry turns as it comes in, hand keeping it off his face the turn getting him offline of the blow dropping his center and the guy literally runs up his back. Gerry pops his hips and continues the turn and the guy goes for a ride.

Aikido being used? Argueable,depending on your definition of aikido and what it is, which is a big debate on here... mostly by non-aikido folks. There is some internal dispute as well, mind.

For me, definitely aikido principles with judo technique. For Gerry, maybe, but maybe not. For some of the other few aikido guys/gals on her, probably to certainly not because of the range. For you? I've no clue. You tell me.

If Gerry did it it was Aikido. If it is just any stray arm lock or thow being claimed as Aikido then probably not.

 

[JP3]

If Gerry did it it was Aikido. If it is just any stray arm lock or thow being claimed as Aikido then probably not.

Is that because what Gerry practices is his NGA, or because he did what you consider to be "a recognizeable aikido technique?"

So, If I did it, and I considered a gooly-gee whillickers, whiz-bang seoinage.... what did I do?

I think the "what I did" depends on the perception of the observer. From inside, I'm probably thinking ippon seoinage, but the Chinese wrestling guy would call it something else.... no clue what it'd be and I'd probably be insulting if I tried to figure it out.

 

[drop bear]

Is that because what Gerry practices is his NGA, or because he did what you consider to be "a recognizeable aikido technique?"

So, If I did it, and I considered a gooly-gee whillickers, whiz-bang seoinage.... what did I do?

I think the "what I did" depends on the perception of the observer. From inside, I'm probably thinking ippon seoinage, but the Chinese wrestling guy would call it something else.... no clue what it'd be and I'd probably be insulting if I tried to figure it out.

Because Gerry actually does Aikido. Lets turn this around. If I used a wristlock on the street. What Aikido belt do I get?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because Gerry actually does Aikido. Lets turn this around. If I used a wristlock on the street. What Aikido belt do I get?

Okay, I can see your point. Let me present a counter-view. I sometimes look at someone doing TKD, see a nice step off-line to strike an opening, and think, "That's some nice Aikido!" He doesn't know it as Aikido, but it's Aikido to me, because it fits with what we do. I see the same in BJJ quite often - I think they have some of the best "Aikido" from static positions. That's the difference between the art being defined by the training/techniques and the art be defined by the principles.

 

[JP3]

Because Gerry actually does Aikido. Lets turn this around. If I used a wristlock on the street. What Aikido belt do I get?

Do you need something to help hold your pants up?

Probably none, since you don't even know what to call what you did in "Aikidospeak." And, unless you just whacked-up an aikido instructor, no aikido instructor saw you do it. You'd just be telling people after the fact a story, and we generally pooh-pooh those as you know. Pictures or it didn't happen and video would be better.

The above yanking-in of our conversations from other threads notwithstanding, for me personally, if you told me about it, I'd want to feel you do it to me, see you do it on other people, tell you what we call it, and then stick you with a list of other things to be able to likewise do and then... once you did those as well, I'd probably hand you the correct kyu grade colored belt. IF you needed to have something to hold up your pants.

 

[KenpoMaster805]

Aikido is very poweful compare to karate and taekwondo but the aikido here at oxnard is far so i just taking karate

 

[drop bear]

I don't think that is over-thinking the issue at all. How can you possibly determine identical proficiency? I am a Hapkidoist. I am taught many techniques, and I am taught to defend myself without being injured. I am taught to defend against punches, kicks, grapples; basically anywhere you touch me or try to touch me, I have defenses. The only rule is to not lose. How do you get identical proficiency in a striking art?

That's not a put down on striking arts. If a Karate practitioner is grossly faster, I may have a problem. But then was the Karate practitioner not above me in proficiency??

How do you get taught to not loose though?

I mean not loosing is kind of frowned upon in a lot of places. Because you are obviously not training hard enough.

 

[drop bear]

Do you need something to help hold your pants up?

Probably none, since you don't even know what to call what you did in "Aikidospeak." And, unless you just whacked-up an aikido instructor, no aikido instructor saw you do it. You'd just be telling people after the fact a story, and we generally pooh-pooh those as you know. Pictures or it didn't happen and video would be better.

The above yanking-in of our conversations from other threads notwithstanding, for me personally, if you told me about it, I'd want to feel you do it to me, see you do it on other people, tell you what we call it, and then stick you with a list of other things to be able to likewise do and then... once you did those as well, I'd probably hand you the correct kyu grade colored belt. IF you needed to have something to hold up your pants.

So Aikido gets to be everyone but not everyone gets to be Aikido?

Sees unfair.

Now all i have to do is find me an Aikido instructor and Aikido side kick that guy.