Bujinkan + ?

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Again, I disagree. I think, if you have done things correctly to control the attacker's spine/balance/kukan, etc, it extremely difficult, next to impossible to do all of the things you have mentioned. I think if one trains to be sensitive to what affects they are having on the uke and sticking to them, it is fairly easy to adjust and adapt to unfamiliar bodies.

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings once again, but if you haven't experienced problems like these, odds are you haven't trained with a large enough amount of people, or people are being TOO cooperative with you.

When I have been training and someone is able to punch me, kick me, or whatever, means I have not affected them correctly, so I go back and revisit what I am doing or not doing to resolve the issue.

I hope for your sake you have the resourcefulness and presence of mind to do this against someone genuinely intent on harming you.

 

[Bigshadow]

I hate to be the bearer of bad tidings once again, but if you haven't experienced problems like these, odds are you haven't trained with a large enough amount of people, or people are being TOO cooperative with you.

Dude, the training partners I train with don't give you nothing. So I don't think anyone is being cooperative, so if you aren't doing it right, it won't work. Don't get me wrong, there are times when it is a new movement or something, we will be cooperative for the first few tries, but I can guarantee you, three of the people I train with the most don't give me anything, likewise, I do the same for them. As uke, if we can get a punch, get out of a lock or submission we will do it, to let each other know where things went wrong.

I hope for your sake you have the resourcefulness and presence of mind to do this against someone genuinely intent on harming you.

Certainly.... I have had my share of dings from these guys.

I still disagree with you In all friendliness, I would like to see and feel some examples of what you are talking about, because I am still trying to figure out how your gonna punch or kick when I have control of your balance and spine (both of which you desparately need to punch or kick or anything else other than Sandbad No Kamae). Try delivering a good punch or kick when you are off balance or your spine is being twisted and compressed like a jack-in-the-box. In all honesty, I just don't see it, although, I am still just a relative beginner.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Dude, the training partners I train with don't give you nothing. So I don't think anyone is being cooperative, so if you aren't doing it right, it won't work.

By not being cooperative, do you mean that people don't do the techniques "on themselves" (good) or do you mean that they're actively resisting and countering whatever it is you're doing (bad unless you're told to)?

As uke, if we can get a punch, get out of a lock or submission we will do it, to let each other know where things went wrong

Obviously, you're not doing this enough, or nobody would learn anything...it's always easier to screw people over when they're moving in slow motion.

Certainly.... I have had my share of dings from these guys.

It appears that you're avoiding my question, correct me if I'm wrong.

examples of what you are talking about, because I am still trying to figure out how your gonna punch or kick when I have control of your balance and spine (both of which you desparately need to punch or kick or anything else other than Sandbad No Kamae).

As I've said before, people who pick fights with others tend to be in pretty good physical shape, which means that they don't need to utilize taijutsu principles to hit hard enough to do damage. Secondly, no lock, crank or controlling hold has a zero percentage failure rate. Anyone who says differently is lying. Wild defensive squirming and flailing about either while lying or standing always brings with it the possibility to disrupt your lock long enough for him to break free, and as all budoka know, while arms and legs may be pinned down it is considerably harder to stop someone from moving his hips - which, BTW, is the key to getting out from quite a lot of submission holds. Now, as much as I would love to daze people with dakentai so that they remain docile at times, that isn't something we can successfully replicate during training.

Try delivering a good punch or kick when you are off balance or your spine is being twisted and compressed like a jack-in-the-box. In all honesty, I just don't see it, although, I am still just a relative beginner.

Let's say you give us an example of a specific technique you had in mind and we'll take it from there.

 

[Bigshadow]

By not being cooperative, do you mean that people don't do the techniques "on themselves" (good) or do you mean that they're actively resisting and countering whatever it is you're doing (bad unless you're told to)?

They don't let the technique just happen, as you say "on themselves". Sometimes when told, we will attempt counters and so forth.

it's always easier to screw people over when they're moving in slow motion.

I am aware of how easy it is to screw people over when moving slow. Yes, it certainly helps the Uke to screw the tori when they anticipate what is going to happen and they move at twice the pace of the tori. Of course this isn't an example of a good uke.

It appears that you're avoiding my question, correct me if I'm wrong.

I didn't think I avoided the question. My point was yes I train with people who don't let the technique be done on themselves and who will keep you honest as well as attack with intention.

As I've said before, people who pick fights with others tend to be in pretty good physical shape, which means that they don't need to utilize taijutsu principles to hit hard enough to do damage. Secondly, no lock, crank or controlling hold has a zero percentage failure rate. Anyone who says differently is lying.

However they really have to rely on HEAVILY on isolated muscle to deliver a blow with any kind of force, but then again, it isn't static, I am not just standing there. I agree, with the zero percentage. I wasn't implying that. Also, flowing and often times letting them do what they think they want to do and sticking to them puts them at more of a disadvantage, progressively, until there is nothing else that can be done. So I really don't see where musles or being extremely fit on the part of the attacker make any significant difference in the effectiveness of our art.

Wild defensive squirming and flailing about either while lying or standing always brings with it the possibility to disrupt your lock long enough for him to break free, and as all budoka know, while arms and legs may be pinned down it is considerably harder to stop someone from moving his hips -

If they are squirming and flailing about, in my opinion they are not under any kind of control. What I mean is... Just because I have the wrist twisted doesn't mean they can't get out, I have to have more control than that. Or even if they were on the ground face down, depending on where I pin them and/or their arms determines just how much mobility they are going to have. Give them the space and they feel it, they will wiggle into it and get out. So don't give them the space to squeeze into or roll into.

Let's say you give us an example of a specific technique you had in mind and we'll take it from there.

No examples or specific techniques in mind. These things are far easier to FEEL than WRITE. Also, this wasn't a challenge, it was a humble exploratory statement.

 

[Bigshadow]

Folks, I apologize... I think Nimravus and I have hijacked this thread. It may need to be split off. I think we have drifted beyond the original question of the thread. :uhohh:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I am aware of how easy it is to screw people over when moving slow. Yes, it certainly helps the Uke to screw the tori when they anticipate what is going to happen and they move at twice the pace of the tori. Of course this isn't an example of a good uke.

Exactly, and if there are people who like to take advantage of these things during training. what do you think the average real life aggressor is going to behave like?

My point was yes I train with people who don't let the technique be done on themselves and who will keep you honest as well as attack with intention.

And MY point was that I find it a tad farfetched that you claim the ability to stop and start over again whenever a technique didn't go as planned. Not something I would count on being able to do against a real aggressor. The fact of the matter is that different people have different limitations. There are people who don't feel full power slaps to the thighs, chest, arms and so forth. There are people who can pop their joints out of their sockets and back again at will. There are people who can touch the inside (and outside) of their forearms with the fingers of the same side hand. There are people who can bend their elbows almost 90 degree in the "wrong" direction.

but then again, it isn't static, I am not just standing there.

Neither are they, but I understand what you mean.

So I really don't see where musles or being extremely fit on the part of the attacker make any significant difference in the effectiveness of our art.

If he is strong enough to hold your entire bodyweight with an outstretched arm and you don't have an equalizer of some sort, it's fairly safe to say that you're going to die. Here's a good tip: don't take on people like that. It is of course extremely unrealistic to go around thinking that there are that many people around who are that strong - some, of course, but very few. I've met two personally, however, none of whom were very prone to get into a lot of fights.

Generally speaking, I've found that the legs are a pretty good indicator of when you can handle someone and when you're better off beating a hasty escape. If you feel stability through your own legs when faced with someone, you have at least the possibility to emerge successful. If not, put your legs to better use by putting one foot in front of the other quickly and in the opposite direction...:asian:

If they are squirming and flailing about, in my opinion they are not under any kind of control.

That's not necessarily the case, it's just that kansetsu waza has a higher failure rate against people who can think clearly. In the book "Togakure Ryu Ninpo Taijutsu" there is a passage where Hatsumi tells of an incident in which a very large Israeli soldier was practicing some sort of arm lock with a smaller student. The smaller guy didn't seem assured that his technique was really effective, but the larger man calmly said that everything was working perfectly. However, Hatsumi could see the confidence in the bigger man's eyes, and that he could probably defeat the smaller person even if his arm was broken.

No examples or specific techniques in mind. These things are far easier to FEEL than WRITE. Also, this wasn't a challenge, it was a humble exploratory statement.

Now I'm not saying anything about your personal ability to do this, since I've never met you. It's just that it is folly to think you can control everybody in the world in the same manner without any sort of adaptation, because different people have different limitations and different degrees of difficulty to deal with.

 

[Don Roley]

My totally unqualified, unsupported and unfounded assumption is this: if someone who started training this year were to immediately try to copy the Japanese shihan the way they move today, ten years from now, his taijutsu would look less like the Japanese than if he had taken the time to acquire the skills necessary to elaborate on and/or copy their movements correctly.

Obviously, as a Japan Elitist, I feel differently. :supcool:

I think that you are thinking of just going through the higher level stuff with the Japanese shihan. That is not what I am saying. While working out with them, they have often pointed out problems I have due to flawed basics passed on to me by my old American instructor (i.e. "The Evil One.") They show me how using the basics correctly help make the advanced stuff work as it is supposed to.

The thing is, the basics I had/have pass muster outside of Japan. Based on my observarions, I would say that only about three percent or (probably) less of people teaching have all the skills in the Tenchijin to a somewhat decent level. I know I am not going to make friends by saying that.

So, I have to wonder aloud if your teachers really do know the kihon happo and are able to integrate what they learned with what is being shown in Japan now.

As I said, I look at people from all over the world training here in Japan and they do not look like what the Japanese teachers are doing. I can see where they think that taking things like Osoto-gari from judo is close enough for taijutsu. Some of them have used be to ask, beg even, the Japanese to show them the very basics and assume they know nothing. In ten years, I can count those types on one hand. Most often, the Japanese don't bother to correct these mistakes if people don't seem to be trying to do EXACTLY what they were showing.

I think the greatest influence on the Bujinkan overseas is from people like the Evil One, who I know is very active right now in making money off of Gyokko ryu even though he does not seem to have been to Japan this year, or more than a week the last year it was taught. He teaches things that he claims are Bujinkan basics, but really are taken from things like aikido, judo or other arts like the subject of this thread is about, or from videos and books filtered through his experiences in other arts and not actual Bujinkan instruction.

He is very influential, and he is not the only one who has taught a lot of Bujinkan stuff while actually being more influenced by other arts.

That is why I say that you should not try to learn other arts too early and that you should go to the Japanese shihan to train, begging them to show you the basics to make sure you are doing a Bujinkan technique rather than one borrowed from another martial art.

I honestly think more people should be questioning their basics than trying to learn basics from other arts.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Obviously, as a Japan Elitist, I feel differently. :supcool:

I think that you are thinking of just going through the higher level stuff with the Japanese shihan. That is not what I am saying.

Well, that was what I had in mind, and I have no objections to anything else you're saying.

 

[Bigshadow]

Exactly, and if there are people who like to take advantage of these things during training. what do you think the average real life aggressor is going to behave like?

That is why we train. Better to find these things out on the mat and not on the street.

And MY point was that I find it a tad farfetched that you claim the ability to stop and start over again whenever a technique didn't go as planned. Not something I would count on being able to do against a real aggressor.

That wasn't precisely what I meant. Why I meant by the "starting over" is I keep working on the drill to find out why I am getting clocked. Not that I stop at that point and start over (this is bad to do). Sorry for the confusion.

If he is strong enough to hold your entire bodyweight with an outstretched arm and you don't have an equalizer of some sort, it's fairly safe to say that you're going to die.

I don't think I have to worry too much about that!

Now I'm not saying anything about your personal ability to do this, since I've never met you. It's just that it is folly to think you can control everybody in the world in the same manner without any sort of adaptation, because different people have different limitations and different degrees of difficulty to deal with.

First, I don't think *I* can control everyone in the world. However, I feel confident the principles are there to do so, if I ever get mastery of them. Also, I never said without adaption. I am not talking about trying to apply the densho verbatim, what I am talking about are the principles they embody. During training, doing the same thing on two different people is going to look different each time and even moreso different each successive time with the same person, each attack is never EXACTLY the same. Of course when training it is the responsibility of the uke to do the attack (within their ability) the SAME way every time unless told otherwise by the instructor. That said, I feel adherence to the principles of proper movement will be effective no matter what strength or size the human is. Also, I think proper movement is NOT always the exact same movement across the board, the movement must "fit" the shape of the attack and each persons physical characteristics WILL shape that attack.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I don't think I have to worry too much about that!

It MAY also be enough to cause you trouble for someone to have enough strength to RESIST your bodyweight for a brief period of time.

Of course when training it is the responsibility of the uke to do the attack (within their ability) the SAME way every time unless told otherwise by the instructor.

Well, if you've never experienced any anomalies in regards to that rule of thumb, I maintain that you've not trained with a large enough number of people.:asian:

 

[Bigshadow]

It MAY also be enough to cause you trouble for someone to have enough strength to RESIST your bodyweight for a brief period of time.

My reply to that was tongue-n-cheek. Maybe you haven't seen my picture lately HAHAHA However, I understood what you meant.

:asian:

 

[Dale Seago]

It MAY also be enough to cause you trouble for someone to have enough strength to RESIST your bodyweight for a brief period of time.

I have a couple of students with that level of strength. Makes absolutely no difference, as they can't use it when they're off-balance/out of position. . .which is part of any taijutsu technique.

Bigshadow, my sincere compliments to your teachers. :asian:

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Of course, actually GETTING them off balance is never as easy as we would like, though I doubt my own ability a tad more than yours (Dale).:asian:

 

[Kizaru]

I have a couple of students with that level of strength. Makes absolutely no difference, as they can't use it when they're off-balance/out of position. . .which is part of any taijutsu technique.

Thank you!
:asian: