Bujinkan + ?

[Don Roley]

I absolutely agree that you at least should be trying to replicate what you are being shown in Japan whilst in Japan, but I don't think you can call that the type of training most people could or should be focusing on while at home, (hopefully) trying to better themselves beforehand. When in Japan, do as the Japanese do, sure...but it also seems prudent to know your own limitations, right?

I must strongly disagree.

When you train in a dojo with 'Bujinkan' as part of the title, I think you should always try to follow the way the head of the art trains and teaches no matter how far away you are from him. Otherwise, why bother? I see far too many people adding a little of this, and a little of that, and the results mess up their traijutsu from a Japan perspective.

And I don't think it is unrealistic as long as you accept your limitations and not try to teach more than you have been taught about the subject matter. Anyone who reads these boards knowns I come down on the idea of learning from video, notes or things like that. How the heck do you think I feel about people that take non-Bujinkan things to try to fill in holes in their knowledge?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

When you train in a dojo with 'Bujinkan' as part of the title, I think you should always try to follow the way the head of the art trains and teaches no matter how far away you are from him. Otherwise, why bother? I see far too many people adding a little of this, and a little of that, and the results mess up their traijutsu from a Japan perspective.

I never said that I don't want to be able to move like the Japanese eventually, did I? But first things first. There is a good quote on the front page of www.bujinkanbudokai.nl about this subject.

And I don't think it is unrealistic as long as you accept your limitations and not try to teach more than you have been taught about the subject matter.

Well, I'm a bit skeptical to that as well, because all too often I see and hear about people who come home from a two-week stay in Japan and start teaching stuff they've picked up over there. But all that they're really doing is demonstrating all these cool, subtle and advanced techniques they've been learning, the rarely if ever share their own personal reflections or try to put something across with it on their own volition.
Now, I'm fortunate enough to being able to train with people who not only can demonstrate these things they've learned in Japan, but also add their own personal touch to it all, demonstrate how the concepts of what they've learned can be applied in various different scenarios, and perhaps most importantly, how it relates to kihon. Given a choice between these two kinds of instructors, which ones do you think I'm going to be spending the most time training with?

How the heck do you think I feel about people that take non-Bujinkan things to try to fill in holes in their knowledge?

I'm sorry, you lost me there. What does that have to do with knowing your own limitations as far as taijutsu is concerned?

 

[Don Roley]

[/i]

I never said that I don't want to be able to move like the Japanese eventually, did I? But first things first. There is a good quote on the front page of www.bujinkanbudokai.nl about this subject.

I got the quote, it goes like this.

"Sensei teaches art, but when people imitate him, they try to do the abstract too soon. It can work for now but the gaps in the basis will show in a few years"
Nagato Sensei, March 2005

And I can say that I agree with the above. But that does not mean that people should not be trying to move like the Japanese in the way they do taijutsu.

What I hear, and what I think Nagato was talking about, is the fact that Hatsumi can move like he does due to a lot of very basic training. He does not move around in deep stances anymore, but he used to. And it is because he moved so deeply that he is able to move so well now. What Nagato is talking about (I would bet) is that people see him stand up higher than he does in the old pictures and think that they don't have to go through that old sort of training. I do not agree, and the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching. But so many people just want to go straight to the head and do nothing except what he is doing now and ignore all that went on before.

I think that a beggining is a very, very delicate time. You can pick up habits that can haunt you for years. I speak as a person who trained under an instructor in America who had his own way of moving and later moved to Japan. If you start out developing habits from other arts or instructors that try to do their own thing, you will end up taking years to try to get rid of them to move like the Japanese later on. I speak from personal experience here. If you want to eventually move like the Japanese, you had better start today.

[/i]Well, I'm a bit skeptical to that as well, because all too often I see and hear about people who come home from a two-week stay in Japan and start teaching stuff they've picked up over there. But all that they're really doing is demonstrating all these cool, subtle and advanced techniques they've been learning, the rarely if ever share their own personal reflections or try to put something across with it on their own volition.
Now, I'm fortunate enough to being able to train with people who not only can demonstrate these things they've learned in Japan, but also add their own personal touch to it all,

I assume you have heard of the concept of shu- ha- ri. I am personally very leary of those that would come back from Japan and then immediatly start teaching their own interpetations of the subject matter. I believe there should be a lot of practice and study with the subject matter exactly as it was learned before trying to fool with it. To jump past that stage and immediatly try to stamp their own aspects onto it is to miss the important lessons that come from supressing the ego and just following the guidence of the teacher by doing what they do as they taught it.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

What I hear, and what I think Nagato was talking about, is the fact that Hatsumi can move like he does due to a lot of very basic training. He does not move around in deep stances anymore, but he used to. And it is because he moved so deeply that he is able to move so well now. What Nagato is talking about (I would bet) is that people see him stand up higher than he does in the old pictures and think that they don't have to go through that old sort of training. I do not agree, and the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching. But so many people just want to go straight to the head and do nothing except what he is doing now and ignore all that went on before.

Isn't that what I've been saying all along?

If you want to eventually move like the Japanese, you had better start today.

Whom are you speaking to?

My totally unqualified, unsupported and unfounded assumption is this: if someone who started training this year were to immediately try to copy the Japanese shihan the way they move today, ten years from now, his taijutsu would look less like the Japanese than if he had taken the time to acquire the skills necessary to elaborate on and/or copy their movements correctly.

I assume you have heard of the concept of shu- ha- ri. I am personally very leary of those that would come back from Japan and then immediatly start teaching their own interpetations of the subject matter.

My description was not the best possible, I'm aware of that. My point was that I would rather train with people that have enough experience and quality as instructors to do something useful with what they've picked up in Japan, rather than those who can merely demonstrate techniques, but not bring across any of the underlying messages the Japanese shihan are trying to put across...

I believe there should be a lot of practice and study with the subject matter exactly as it was learned before trying to fool with it. To jump past that stage and immediatly try to stamp their own aspects onto it is to miss the important lessons that come from supressing the ego and just following the guidence of the teacher by doing what they do as they taught it.

Two years ago, I was at this seminar in which a very highly regarded shihan (anyone may PM me if you would like to know whom) and one of the most sought after instructors around the world, said that what has been taught of juppo sessho were in some ways similar to the kata in the densho; it is a model given to us to practice and perfect - BUT, we also have to practice it to make it effective, because it's not effective from the beginning.

 

[Bigshadow]

And you base this on your experience with several different dojos, perhaps even of different nationalities?

It is my opinion based on (for starters) what I have seen at seminars where people from many dojos participate, there are many pieces of evidence that I have used to form my opinion. After all it is my opinion, I do think it is obvious to most, but you are free to disagree.

 

[Bigshadow]

When I talk about mainstream Bujinkan, I am talking about what I see Hatsumi and the Japanese shihan doing. As I said, there are many, many more that seem to move more like a karateka or a judoka more than they move like the Noguchi, Nagato or any other big name Japanese.

This is also evident on the videos from Japan as well.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I do not think that participating in seminars can be viewed as the same as regular training. There is a world of differences. For instance, at seminars, everyone usually performs worse than they usually do at their regular dojo; you're training with new people who do things you're not used to and have different movement capabilities and pain thresholds, you have to practice new techniques together with people you don't know, there are often no mats on the floor, it's early in the morning, maybe you've got a slight hangover:uhyeah:, there are often less possibilities to get corrections from the instructor etc etc etc...

EDIT: What videos? The Quest videos? Or the Daikomyosai/Taikai videos?

 

[Bigshadow]

When you train in a dojo with 'Bujinkan' as part of the title, I think you should always try to follow the way the head of the art trains and teaches no matter how far away you are from him. Otherwise, why bother? I see far too many people adding a little of this, and a little of that, and the results mess up their traijutsu from a Japan perspective.

I strongly agree with that! I guess I wouldn't be alone if I said I am still very far from moving like Soke! HAHAHA All kidding aside, I think it is important to try and emulate what he does and through this, we will begin to feel the art the way he does.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I strongly agree with that! I guess I wouldn't be alone if I said I am still very far from moving like Soke! HAHAHA All kidding aside, I think it is important to try and emulate what he does and through this, we will begin to feel the art the way he does.

the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching.

:asian:

 

[Bigshadow]

You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I do not think that participating in seminars can be viewed as the same as regular training. There is a world of differences. For instance, at seminars, everyone usually performs worse than they usually do at their regular dojo; you're training with new people who do things you're not used to and have different movement capabilities and pain thresholds, you have to practice new techniques together with people you don't know, there are often no mats on the floor, it's early in the morning, maybe you've got a slight hangover:uhyeah:, there are often less possibilities to get corrections from the instructor etc etc etc...

I disgree. If you cannot do something with a different body, then you truly have not learned it. That is just like when I was learning to fly. I would get so nervous and mess up when landing at another unfamiliar airport. My flight instructor would say "it is just another F$$##@#$ slab of concrete". He is right. I needed more practice. Seminars are a great opportunity to grow. Fundamentally, unless you have NOT been training very long, you will move like you have been taught. Plus that whole nervousness is over after the first 15 minutes or so, for me anyway. For these reasons, I disagree.

EDIT: What videos? The Quest videos? Or the Daikomyosai/Taikai videos?

Daikomyosai/Taikai, also, I will tell you I look at the videos people put online on their websites and I have viewed many and I can see worlds of differences between the people (even doing the same thing). I won't mention any of them, just say that I watch them and I see differences.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

I disgree. If you cannot do something with a different body, then you truly have not learned it.

If you haven't experienced what I spoke about, you haven't been to enough seminars. I apologize for sounding arrogant but that's the way it is.

Daikomyosai/Taikai, also, I will tell you I look at the videos people put online on their websites and I have viewed many and I can see worlds of differences between the people (even doing the same thing). I won't mention any of them, just say that I watch them and I see differences.

Now that I can agree with (the video clips people put up here and there, that is). Most American and German videos I've seen have clear evidence of people trying to become "movement minimalists" too early.

 

[Bigshadow]

My totally unqualified, unsupported and unfounded assumption is this: if someone who started training this year were to immediately try to copy the Japanese shihan the way they move today, ten years from now, his taijutsu would look less like the Japanese than if he had taken the time to acquire the skills necessary to elaborate on and/or copy their movements correctly.

It is my assumption that even emulating someone, it will rarely look *exactly* the same due to the differences of each person, but it should look very similar.

For instance in training, if I understand the principles of particular movment, I can watch others and tell whether they are applying the principles or not, even though their body movment isn't exactly the same, although, their movement will be *similar*.

That is my $.02 worth of opinion regarding the reasons for trying to emulate Soke.

 

[Bigshadow]

If you haven't experienced what I spoke about, you haven't been to enough seminars. I apologize for sounding arrogant but that's the way it is.

That's cool, I don't take it that way. Although, I don't agree. I think it is all relative, anyway.

 

[Dale Seago]

What I hear, and what I think Nagato was talking about, is the fact that Hatsumi can move like he does due to a lot of very basic training. He does not move around in deep stances anymore, but he used to. And it is because he moved so deeply that he is able to move so well now. What Nagato is talking about (I would bet) is that people see him stand up higher than he does in the old pictures and think that they don't have to go through that old sort of training. I do not agree, and the teachers I train under feel the same way. They can teach you the basics that Hatsumi should not waste his time teaching. But so many people just want to go straight to the head and do nothing except what he is doing now and ignore all that went on before.

Yes, some people seem to just want to train with Soke; and, since they're getting stuff straight from the source, they think they must be learning the art. I agree with Don that you have to spend time with the shihan and you have to develop sound basics.

There is, however, a view some hold which is diametrically opposed to the "only train with Soke" view. This perspective goes something like,

"You can't get to where Soke is unless you go through the sort of training progression he went through. Therefore I'm only going to teach kihon and densho kata, with the concepts and strategies of the different ryuha, to people for X number of years before I start doing anything else with them like 'theme of the year' stuff which has absolutely no relevance to them and is beyond their grasp."

I heard that from a shidoshi a few days ago. Said that last year his students worked only on Koto ryu, which he considers the best foundation because it's easiest to grasp -- very direct and "to the point". This year they've worked only on Koto ryu. Next year, they'll probably be working on Koto ryu.

Anybody see that as potentially problematic?

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

which has absolutely no relevance to them and is beyond their grasp."

As I was trying to get across in post #22, whether or not that holds true often has quite a bit to do with the instructor's teaching methods.

 

[Bigshadow]

Anybody see that as potentially problematic?

Yes, I do. Fortunately, we don't focus on any one Ryu-ha. We generally try to follow what they are doing in Japan.

(Maybe this is related) I think the bar should be always be set higher. I have been training often with my instructor and do something and he would say "You already know how to do that, do something different?" By exposing people to things that they cannot grasp yet has a profound influence on their training. So I think it is important to often work just above the skill level (of the students), that is one of the things I enjoy about training with my instructor.

Just my personal opinion about training... I have always been encouraged when seeking out training.... "To train with Soke or his Japanese shihan, or if not possible; with people who DO train with them, regularly."

 

[mrhnau]

"You can't get to where Soke is unless you go through the sort of training progression he went through. Therefore I'm only going to teach kihon and densho kata, with the concepts and strategies of the different ryuha, to people for X number of years before I start doing anything else with them like 'theme of the year' stuff which has absolutely no relevance to them and is beyond their grasp."

I heard that from a shidoshi a few days ago. Said that last year his students worked only on Koto ryu, which he considers the best foundation because it's easiest to grasp -- very direct and "to the point". This year they've worked only on Koto ryu. Next year, they'll probably be working on Koto ryu.

Anybody see that as potentially problematic?

As a beginner, maybe I can provide a little insight... what I'm seeing is a vast see of technique. When you enter, isn't it useful to focus on something somewhat basic for a while, until you have mastered what can be considered the "basics"? If you teach me 1000 techniques in the first month, what kind of retention will I have?

If you tell me to draw a picture and give me 1000 crayons, its going to take alot of time to consider each one and pick the "best" color for each circumstance. Give me 16 crayons and it might be a bit easier of a selection. The painting won't be quite as beautiful, but until i have mastered the art of drawing a picture, do I really need 1000 crayons? As a beginner, do I need to learn 200 ways to counter someone grabbing my arm? Why not just 2 or 3, depending on the circumstance? Let me master those, get proficient with those, then we can move forward and you teach me a wider variety of techniques.

Of course, knowledge needs to grow, but I don't want to full host of techniques thrown at me ASAP. I want to learn the basics first, then start a progression. Understand, I'm very much a beginner, but wanted to share my .02. With regard to your quote Dale, is it 1 year for basics? is it 3 months? That should be more of the question I believe. I know you always practice your basics, but eventually you should move on some, I assume...

MrH

 

[Bigshadow]

As a beginner, maybe I can provide a little insight... what I'm seeing is a vast see of technique. When you enter, isn't it useful to focus on something somewhat basic for a while, until you have mastered what can be considered the "basics"? If you teach me 1000 techniques in the first month, what kind of retention will I have?

Keep going and what will start happening is you will understand that there really is just 8. Not 1000s. (as I understand things). One way to look at it is pay particular attention to the shape that the uke's body takes when a technique is applied. There are many ways to make that uke's body form that shape. In my opinion the shape the body takes is key. The body can only take on so many shapes, it is the ways in which to make the body take those shapes that can be endless.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Thing is, you don't know for sure how an unfamiliar body is going to react to whatever you're doing. What will send one person to the floor screaming will make another one squirm like a worm to get out, a third will use his superior strength and resilience to withstand it, a fourth will punch you in the face, a fifth kick you in the shins etc etc...

 

[Bigshadow]

Thing is, you don't know for sure how an unfamiliar body is going to react to whatever you're doing. What will send one person to the floor screaming will make another one squirm like a worm to get out, a third will use his superior strength and resilience to withstand it, a fourth will punch you in the face, a fifth kick you in the shins etc etc...

EDIT:I want to say below is my opinion based on how I have been trained and my training experiences and is not intended to be from some authoritarian point of view. I am learning just like everyone else.

Again, I disagree. I think, if you have done things correctly to control the attacker's spine/balance/kukan, etc, it extremely difficult, next to impossible to do all of the things you have mentioned. I think if one trains to be sensitive to what affects they are having on the uke and sticking to them, it is fairly easy to adjust and adapt to unfamiliar bodies.

When I have been training and someone is able to punch me, kick me, or whatever, means I have not affected them correctly, so I go back and revisit what I am doing or not doing to resolve the issue.