Bujinkan a fraud?
- Thread starter Scorpion_Clan
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Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Oh, boy. Are you sure you want to go through this....?
Ha, you got further than I did, then.... really, I've gone through far too many of his "history" videos already.....
And, if you don't mind, I'll see if I can add to it.
Oh, it's a lot worse than that.
One of the only real claims that he was able to provide any backup for was that he trained under Dennis Bartrum in the UK, and provided a video clip that showed him at one of Dennis' classes. However, it was brought up that Antony lived a few hundred miles away, and a single video didn't equal 10 years of training. Dennis himself was recently contacted regarding a video Antony put up about how he was "kicked out of the Bujinkan", despite never actually being a member, paying any membership or grading fees, claiming a fourth dan, and more, and Dennis denied that Antony was ever his student, only an attendee at a seminar or two, and a number of other details that basically completely blew Antony's story out of the water. Still, he claims to have trained under Dennis for a decade, and that is the basis of him teaching people martial arts.
He has claimed to be the translator for ancient Japanese texts, but when it was revealed that he doesn't have the ability to read modern Japanese, let alone ancient texts, he stated that his friend (girlfriend?) Yoshie is actually doing the translating, and he was adding his commentary (not realising the difference between a commentary and a translation, nor recognising the requirement of understanding the subject before he comments on such matters). That then turned into a team that he was leading (?) called the "Historical Ninjutsu Research Team". Their job, self appointed, is to be the bastions of "the true ninja history", and to that end, they are looking at certain historical texts, but not from a very balanced position. For example, they're looking at texts that teach about the espionage and recruitment of spies (the Shoninki), and deciding that every Ninjutsu tradition must necessarily fit that mold, despite the fact that the text itself is very specific to a particular group (the Kishu Ryu associated with the Natori Gumi) dealing with a specific part of their teachings.
He and his team have consistently mis-used and mis-interpreted a number of terms that are still very much in use in various Koryu still extant, such as Heiho, and despite being corrected, having the correction explained, put into context, contemporary examples being used, and so on, he and the team refused to acknowledge that they could possibly be wrong, despite their take on things going against established knowledge and use of the term. Antony himself has constistently and constantly shown a complete lack of understanding of the Japanese culture and mindset, shown most obviously in the latest video (on being "kicked out of the Bujinkan").
The book he wrote (To Stand On A Stone), he first tried to market to Western Martial Arts practitioners, commenting on it's application to his study of German Longsword methods, such as Tallhoffer. He got gently laughed out of those discussions when it became apparent he didn't know what he was talking about. He then claimed it was about his "decade in training in Ninjutsu", and that is where we came in. He has also tried to claim it was about his understanding of Karate (in which he claims he earned a green belt before he was 10, and that's it). He has also written a book about Hanzo Hattori, "researched" entirely on the internet, and chock-full of errors, to the degree of thinking that "Hanzo" was a title, rather than a name. He made this mistake as the name was used in a number of generations, and he made an incorrect assumption. His books also show a degree of plagarism, up to and including unique spelling and grammatical errors.... but he chose to plagiarise a known fraud himself, which simply compounded the issue for him (as well as other, more credible authors, although his story on whether or not he had permission to reproduce their works and illustrations changed from "yes, I have permission" to "I don't need it, as it's not copyrighted", to "it's not the same picture").
So he's translating without being able to translate (and barely write in English, based on his posts on another forum), commenting without knowing or understanding, and lying about his history and relevant credentials. To begin with.
Not quite backwards (I did see a picture of someone actually doing that, though, which looked like it was an ad for a martial arts supply catalogue.... very funny!), his was tied in a way that would never be allowed in any training hall in Japan (tied on the side in a very messy way, the incorrect ties being used to secure it, and so on).
But the important thing with that picture was that it was discussed for a few weeks on another forum, with Antony as part of that discussion, and he was basically telling everyone that it definately was taken in Japan, that's why it was in the "Japan" folder on his webpage, and we couldn't prove it wasn't. Two months later, when it was proven that it was not taken in Japan, but outside Antony's families farmhouse in Manchester, England, he claimed that the web designer of his page got it wrong, and now he's moved it to where it should be. Now, he and his supporters claim it was never even in the Japan folder at all. That behaviour is indicative of his entire approach to everything here.
He constistently shows a lack of understanding as to what a martial art is, thinking it is unique physical methods, which can be, but is not necessarily the case. He confuses the Bujinkan as a whole, and Budo Taijutsu as an art with Togakure Ryu as a dedicated and distinct Ryu-ha, simply because the Bujinkan in it's infancy was refered to by the Togakure Ryu name. He also showed a great lack of understanding as to what Togakure Ryu actually teaches (for the most part, it matches a lot of his ideas, for the record), and refused to listen to any description, as he'd made up his mind (incorrectly) about it already.
Anthony is targeting the kans because he doesn't understand the art, and also because various x kan people have been relentless in asking questions and exposing his entire trail of lies. Unless he wants to come clean and admit he was making things up all along, he has no choice but to yell at us.And of course, he is creating as much noise as possible so that he can convince people to buy his newest book 'to learn the truth about ninjutsu.
No, Antony is targeting the Kan's, specifically the Bujinkan, due to his misplaced anger at it not living up to his fantasies about what "ninja martial arts" were about. In his own words, he expected to turn up in Japan and recieve free lessons if he would clean the dojo, and was told no. He expected to see fit, hard, tough martial artists, and saw a bunch of rather more average people training in a regular martial art class. He couldn't handle that, and with no real experience, had a "very polite" letter drafted to Hatsumi Sensei telling him that the Bujinkan was a joke, Hatsumi was a joke, he should revoke everyone's grade, kick everyone out that didn't make the grade, and get serious about things. Antony seemed to think that if it was in polite language, that would be fine (for a frankly nobody to talk to Hatsumi with such arrogant demands and comments).
He has a fantasy in his head. That fantasy gets destroyed. He lashes out to destroy and attack the thing that destroyed his fantasy. That is all.
I'm really not a fan of his.
Bruno@MT
Senior Master
Sure I don't mind. Though in light of your remarks and in my defense: I did say 'summary'. You added 1200 words and there are still lots of things unsaid (like his TSKS ryu story for example)
I know I oversimplified some things, but the alternative was to write down an entire essay which could not longer be realistically described as 'summary'
I know I oversimplified some things, but the alternative was to write down an entire essay which could not longer be realistically described as 'summary'
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Oh, I could do an essay... really, I could!
Yeah, even I glossed over a fair amount of stuff there, that's the biggest issue we're finding with dealing with him, there's just so much to go through! Like his idea that his university degree in theoretical archaeology and history (not Japanese) makes him qualified to translate/commentate on ancient Japanese martial arts texts, and doesn't understand why we questioned him on that.
Yeah, even I glossed over a fair amount of stuff there, that's the biggest issue we're finding with dealing with him, there's just so much to go through! Like his idea that his university degree in theoretical archaeology and history (not Japanese) makes him qualified to translate/commentate on ancient Japanese martial arts texts, and doesn't understand why we questioned him on that.
Scorpion_Clan
White Belt
So the Bujinkan Ninjutsu I studied under Shidoshi Thomas Maienze seems legit enough and I still trust in Dr. Masaaki Hatsumi and Stephen K. Hayes as well. I thank you, Chris Parker, for breaking this down. I was unfamiliar with him till yesterday so I really need to find out what his deal is so I can figure out if he is worth listening to or not in my quest to find good authentic Ninjutsu training in Ohio.
Do you all have any opinion on if this place is a good place to train? I want to get back into training.
http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/
Do you all have any opinion on if this place is a good place to train? I want to get back into training.
http://www.columbusninjutsuclub.com/
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Like Thomas Maienze, the Bansenshukai guys started out in the Bujinkan, but split to do their own thing. They have added a few other influences, creating their own approach to things, so if you are after something a little more "pure", then you may want to continue looking. However, if you are after something fairly legit, and don't mind the cross-polination that occurs with such an approach, then check them out and make up your own mind. From what I've seen, they're decent enough, not phenomenal, but certainly solid enough for you to get something out of the classes if you enjoy the atmosphere there.
The Columbus Ninjutsu guys don't even list a formal tie (not even a "former member...") tie to any of the documented ninjutsu organizations. They may well be skilled martial artists -- but I would doubt their ninjutsu claims strongly.
If your only interest is a ninjutsu related organization, I'd suggest you keep hunting. If you're interested in other martial arts in the area, I can strongly recommend the folks at Columbus Bando, as I know them personally.
If your only interest is a ninjutsu related organization, I'd suggest you keep hunting. If you're interested in other martial arts in the area, I can strongly recommend the folks at Columbus Bando, as I know them personally.
yorkshirelad
Master Black Belt
Anthony is targeting the kans because he doesn't understand the art, and also because various x kan people have been relentless in asking questions and exposing his entire trail of lies. Unless he wants to come clean and admit he was making things up all along, he has no choice but to yell at us.
It's sad that most Bujinkan practitioners don't know there art either. I wne t to a Bujinkan class in Dublin in 1999 with a guy who was a Shihan. He was also one of Europe's leading Amatsu Tatara practitioners. He showed us a few Kamae and then went into his office while we stood there and talked for an hour. I went back to the class the next week. Before the class, he asked me about my experience. He asked me if I'd knew any Bo-jutsu. I told him no, but I mentioned that in Aiki we had trained in Jo waza. In the clas, hee brought out a bo staff and told us we would be learning Bo-jutsu. Then he got a mysterious phone call and had to leave. One of his black belts had a key to lock the dojo after the class. Amazingly he asked me to teach the class. I was shocked! He told me not to worry and just to adapt the jo waza I'd learned to use "with a bigger stick". I never went back.
I'll take Cummins with a pinch of salt, but I'll take Hatsumi with a whole salt mine. How anyone can follow the guy blindly when he has no syllabus and most of the black belts who've been in his org for ten years or more are...wait for it.....15 degree black belts, is beyond me.
I saw some videos of Christa Jacobson on you tube and she wipes the floor with most of the Bujinkan nonsense out there. If I had to choose between Jacobson and Van Donk, I would take Jacobson anyday!
pgsmith
Master of Arts
Here's a view from the outside looking in ...
One of the biggest problems that many people in internetland have with the Bujinkan is in the way that Hatsumi sensei is going about passing on his teachings. In the traditional Japanese approach, people are vetted before they are allowed to begin. This means that the majority of people involved in the training are serious about furthering the school. Hatsumi sensei went in an entirely different direction with the Bujinkan by basically throwing it open to anyone, and teaching a large mixture of the various schools involved. His approach (in my opinion only I might add) is predicated upon allowing time to sort out the mess. It allows a huge number of people to actually encounter the school, thus allowing a goodly number of dedicated individuals to apply themselves to going ever deeper into what he wants to pass on as the legacy of his school. However, it also allows a huge number of people to learn a little and then jump out to teach their own version of 'ninjutsu', which leads to a lot of confusion when someone is actually looking for training. Hatsumi sensei doesn't really care about the confusion as it doesn't impact what he is trying to pass on. I believe this extremely non-typical approach to training is what tends to alienate most of the traditional Japanese martial arts practitioners.
That being said, I agree wholeheartedly with the posters that said to go check out the schools in question. In my opinion, the quality of the instructor is much more important than what you are actually learning. A good instructor will teach a martial art in a useful and practical way, no matter what the particular art. A poor instructor will not be able to teach you much of anything effective, even though the art may be the most devastating known to man. Watching the instructor teach, and watching the class itself, will tell you a huge amount about how well he is doing.
Good luck.
One of the biggest problems that many people in internetland have with the Bujinkan is in the way that Hatsumi sensei is going about passing on his teachings. In the traditional Japanese approach, people are vetted before they are allowed to begin. This means that the majority of people involved in the training are serious about furthering the school. Hatsumi sensei went in an entirely different direction with the Bujinkan by basically throwing it open to anyone, and teaching a large mixture of the various schools involved. His approach (in my opinion only I might add) is predicated upon allowing time to sort out the mess. It allows a huge number of people to actually encounter the school, thus allowing a goodly number of dedicated individuals to apply themselves to going ever deeper into what he wants to pass on as the legacy of his school. However, it also allows a huge number of people to learn a little and then jump out to teach their own version of 'ninjutsu', which leads to a lot of confusion when someone is actually looking for training. Hatsumi sensei doesn't really care about the confusion as it doesn't impact what he is trying to pass on. I believe this extremely non-typical approach to training is what tends to alienate most of the traditional Japanese martial arts practitioners.
That being said, I agree wholeheartedly with the posters that said to go check out the schools in question. In my opinion, the quality of the instructor is much more important than what you are actually learning. A good instructor will teach a martial art in a useful and practical way, no matter what the particular art. A poor instructor will not be able to teach you much of anything effective, even though the art may be the most devastating known to man. Watching the instructor teach, and watching the class itself, will tell you a huge amount about how well he is doing.
Good luck.
Hatsumi Sensei is legitimate (as much as anyone else) as his teacher Takamatsu Sensei had plenty of training in ryu that are without question and received menkyo kaiden, etc from them. Hatsumi Sensei then received his scrolls, sokeship, etc. from Takamatsu Sensei. (what more could you want) Whether it is Samurai or Ninjutsu is still debated but..... there is no doubt about the martial training he received. (he moves like a demon) Plus not everything is always written down and some things are Kuden or word of mouth for reasons. There is simply no doubt that Hatsumi Sensei is the real deal and at the higher levels the Bujinkan and the higher level practitioners are very, very good! (of course you have to be picky and find the right ones) What happend with the Bujinkan is that it grew so fast, so big that it is simply a beast to have good quality control. (though that is my issue with the Bujinkan) This growing was not necessarly wanted but it did happen. So look closely, find a good instructor and if you need someone vetted then ask around about them. There are of course always going to be people who have issues with the way things are done, did not like their training, want to make a buck or more, etc. So when an organization is this big there are going to be people that try to tear it down. Such is life!
Ahem check out this Ninjutsu documentary that includes James Loriega it speaks for itself also if the things that they are false or fake like a majority of people are saying here then explain to me why they got featured on the site where the documentary was originally posted at and they are getting the fame (some of it negative and positive) and support from current X-kans members and former ones like Stephen Hayes as well
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3DuM8nYzXQ
Here is Stephen Hayes endorsing Anthony Cummins
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Scorpion_Clan
White Belt
To be fair, Stephen Hayes did NOT endorse Cummins. He simply replied to Cummins' letter to him, mentioning his experiences in training in Japan. Cummins claims Hatsumi is a fraud and Hayes speaks about his time in Japan learning from this master with great reverence. If Hayes agreed with Cummins then I think he would have spoke differently.
I watched some vids of Christa from Budo Ryu Ninjutsu as well and I was quite impressed with her technique. She is quite good! I've been more impressed with what I've seen from her and her dojo than what I have in the Bujinkan. The Bujinkan seems filled with inept/unqualified instructors and confused students. After some of Cummins' claims it makes me question the entire organization.
I watched some vids of Christa from Budo Ryu Ninjutsu as well and I was quite impressed with her technique. She is quite good! I've been more impressed with what I've seen from her and her dojo than what I have in the Bujinkan. The Bujinkan seems filled with inept/unqualified instructors and confused students. After some of Cummins' claims it makes me question the entire organization.
Scorpion your concerns was also addressed by Anthony Cummins and a former Bujinkan member named Robert Law who broke away from the Bujinkan to form Geijin Ryu Ninjutsu
http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/
http://www.ninja-training.com/DavidS.html
This is just my opinion and Kiyoshi Allie Alberigo supports my statements as well because he has videos saying the same things I'm saying in this post that if you like X-kan Ninjutsu/ Taijitsu have it and have fun. Now if you like Christa's Budo Ryu Ninjutsu or any other school's style of Ninjutsu go with that as long as you are learning Ninjutsu and you like it stay with it. Now lets factor in what everyone is saying including the X-kans that anything that doesn't have lineage to Togakure Ryu is fake and isn't real Ninjutsu. Okay now lets factor in Anthony Cummins, James Loriega, and other researchers like Carl Friday as well as numerous other Japanese historical researchers that the Bujinkan and their lineage is fake. So now that everyone in the Ninjutsu community including the Bujinkan are fakes and frauds as well as other schools of Ninjutsu who do you study with now that is teaching real Ninjutsu and a real ninja lineage holder ?
Simple answer you got to take their word for it that it is authentic Ninjutsu and as long as you see it as effective for you when you're fighting study it. Also just to validate my point Scorpion check out Kyoshi Allie Alberigo's videos too to see what I mean that as long as you're doing what you like continue doing it. They are always going to be people that think you're an idiot for studying Ninjutsu but as long as you see it as effective and dedicate yourself to the training of your chosen school who cares about their opinion as long as you're happy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbs9deAhDCU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JXczyWvBqA&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.lininja.com/About_our_Founder_Kyoshi.html
http://www.ninja-training.com/grandmaster/
http://www.ninja-training.com/DavidS.html
This is just my opinion and Kiyoshi Allie Alberigo supports my statements as well because he has videos saying the same things I'm saying in this post that if you like X-kan Ninjutsu/ Taijitsu have it and have fun. Now if you like Christa's Budo Ryu Ninjutsu or any other school's style of Ninjutsu go with that as long as you are learning Ninjutsu and you like it stay with it. Now lets factor in what everyone is saying including the X-kans that anything that doesn't have lineage to Togakure Ryu is fake and isn't real Ninjutsu. Okay now lets factor in Anthony Cummins, James Loriega, and other researchers like Carl Friday as well as numerous other Japanese historical researchers that the Bujinkan and their lineage is fake. So now that everyone in the Ninjutsu community including the Bujinkan are fakes and frauds as well as other schools of Ninjutsu who do you study with now that is teaching real Ninjutsu and a real ninja lineage holder ?
Simple answer you got to take their word for it that it is authentic Ninjutsu and as long as you see it as effective for you when you're fighting study it. Also just to validate my point Scorpion check out Kyoshi Allie Alberigo's videos too to see what I mean that as long as you're doing what you like continue doing it. They are always going to be people that think you're an idiot for studying Ninjutsu but as long as you see it as effective and dedicate yourself to the training of your chosen school who cares about their opinion as long as you're happy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lbs9deAhDCU&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JXczyWvBqA&feature=channel_video_title
http://www.lininja.com/About_our_Founder_Kyoshi.html
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Really, Anthony Cummins, James Loriega, Christa Jacobson, Ronald Duncan, Ashida Kim, etc., etc. if they are on your side then well that is just sad! (really sad)
The simple fact remains that Hatsumi Sensei is the only one with credibility. (other than those who trained with him and then broke off to do their own thing) The majority of people believe this even if there are some people who do not and wish too and want to create their own ninja fantasy with straight swords and all. :lol: Massaki Hatsumi was the student of Toshitsugu Takamatsu who held sokeship of several schools and passed them on to Hatsumi Sensei. How hard is it to understand this? Not very! The Kan's are where it is at there are no other lineages except for ones found in other Koryu with ninjutsu or anti-ninjutsu teachings. (that's it)Where people have issues with other people in this particular martial field is when someone has no traceable lineage in Japan, no teacher, etc. That is the issue. Frauds and fakes abound and people wish to latch onto the cool ninja image when they have absolutely nothing to do with any Japanese Bujutsu. Some times it is just plan unreal and a joke what people will go to!
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Scorpion_Clan
White Belt
So, Brian R. VanCise, Are you calling Christa Jacobson a fraud?
You said the issue is when someone cannot say/display who their master is.....so how do you answer Mr. Cummins' claim that there is no evidence at all that Takamatsu's master ever existed? No documentation, no burial site, nothing.
You said the issue is when someone cannot say/display who their master is.....so how do you answer Mr. Cummins' claim that there is no evidence at all that Takamatsu's master ever existed? No documentation, no burial site, nothing.
I will let Chris Parker and others speak on the history of the Bujinkan et al as hey are must more versed in this area then I am. However Takamatsu Sensei was well respected in Japan and there is no doubt that he was who he was in Japanese Bujutsu. Yet some people are of course going out of their way to create a negative image of the Bujinkan. I think you need to look at them and why they are doing this? ($ from book sales or association to create their own legitimacy) Once you do that then you understand that certain people have an agenda and they profit by it. Personally in regards to Christa Jacobsen I would suggest that you look around the web for your answers. They are there and you can find them easily if you look. I do not go around calling anyone a fraud. However, if they bring questions upon themselves and do not back up their history then it is pretty easy to make a determination on your own.
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Bruno@MT
Senior Master
She is claiming to teach 'Koga ryu'. That makes her a fraud. The only people who can make that claim (whether real or not) are the banke shinobinoden. There is a chance that they are a legit school. their history is believable, they're Japanese, their body conditioning matches the things I read by Fujita Seiko, and they have the look and feel of a genuine Japanese tradition.
Being a fraud has nothing to do with martial arts skill when we're discussin lineage and authenticity. If you lie, then you're a liar.
As for Toda Shinryuken not existing, sorry, you are incorrect. First of all there is enough documentation to assume he existed. There are other known people who trained with him, and Bugei Ryuha Daijiten mentions his name as well
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toda_Shinryuken_Masamitsu
I haven't really followed what happened, but it also appears his grave was found some time ago. Even if it wasn't, the fact that he appears in the Bugei Ryuha Daijiten and has trained other people should count for something.
Admin Note:
At this time, this thread is being reopened. I'd like to caution everyone though, that it will be watched. Additionally, I'd like to remind everyone about the forum rules that you all agreed to upon joining, specifically the sections on fraudbusting and trolling.
Further disruption of the thread will result in it being relocked and IC's handed out, which could result in suspension and/or removal of your account.
MJS
MT Asst. Admin
At this time, this thread is being reopened. I'd like to caution everyone though, that it will be watched. Additionally, I'd like to remind everyone about the forum rules that you all agreed to upon joining, specifically the sections on fraudbusting and trolling.
Further disruption of the thread will result in it being relocked and IC's handed out, which could result in suspension and/or removal of your account.
MJS
MT Asst. Admin
oaktree
Master of Arts
What documents are availble proving he existed?
Are there records proving he owned land or registered with the census? How about a birth record?
There was a grave found with Toda but thats is a common last name and really does not prove if it was the same Toda Masamitsu.
The references from Wiki point back to Hatsumi and are not independent sources.
If there needs to be a claim of Toda Masamitsu it should be in offical records like census or other reliable sources.
Chris Parker
Grandmaster
Okay. and we're back. Let's get to this, shall we?
Seen it. The reason Antony was featured is simple, he has been pursuing any form of media attention whatsoever. That in no way indicates any form of credibility to him. The amount of credibility this show has is only marginally more than the "Ninja versus Spartan" episode of Deadliest Warrior.
Well, the first big issue is calling James Loriega and Antony Cummins "highly respected scholar-practitioners", as they are none of the above. They are not practitioners, they are not scholars, and they certainly are not highly respected. Beyond that, I saw nothing there with much basis in real understanding of anything to do with Japanese martial arts, Ninjutsu, or anything related. It was, frankly, a horrifically bad "documentary".
Oh, and before you get to my comment about Loriega not being a practitioner, I am refering to legitimate systems. The shot of him next to Hayes was taken at a "Ninja Summit" put on by Testuji Higuchi, a man who was claiming to be a close student of Hatsumi, but had no connection to him whatsoever. He pulled that for a while, but once found out it was over in terms of any legit association. At that time, though, the "summit" would take anyone who wanted to turn up, and it was no indication of legitimacy (on a number of counts).
No, he really isn't.
Steve is an interesting soul, in many ways. He will do whatever he can to not say anything bad about someone, and seems to be stretching that to breaking point with Antony.
I can understand that. The issue with Christa is not her training methodology, it's the veracity and honesty with which she comports herself. The big issue is her claims of "Tomo Ryu", which doesn't seem to exist in any time or place in history other than in Christa's stories.
More information has come to me from a former Bujinkan member in Canada who was there at the time, and frankly, Robert Law was never a Bujinkan member. He hosted a few seminars, used them as photo ops, and never trained. He didn't "break away", as he was never a part of it in the first place. Same with Antony, despite his claims (this is actually backed up by Antony himself, contradicting his own story a few times).
Robert Law has no credibility when it comes to Bujinkan.
Ah, that video. It's interesting, really. Especially when Antony contradicts himself (he was kicked out of the Bujinkan, despite never being a member? How does that work?). For the record, Dennis Bartrum has been contacted about this, and has stated categorically that this is not the way things went down, Antony was never his student aside from an occasional seminar, certainly not a student for 10 years, and so on. All this does is remove even more credibility from Antony's claims and his "understanding" of these topics, and shows his anger for the Bujinkan not living up to his fantasies.
I'm going to invite you over to MAP to try to debate these things, if you think you have a point. The rules there are a little more leniant for such discussion. Here is not the place.
Seriously, you're bringing up that ridiculous list again? It is really, more than anything else, evidence that Robert Law lives in fantasy land, and has no real knowledge of anything to do with Japanese martial arts. This is the third time you've posted it here, and frankly I'm a little tired of constantly saying the same thing about it. I suggest you think twice before trying to post it as any form of support again.
Really. That piece was a full of holes, lies, mis-interpretations, and more. It supports only a rather ill-concieved agenda. Not a good source. Especially if you think it supports James Loriega as having anything to do with authentic Ninjutsu arts.
Enjoying it is fine. But thinking that just because the term Ninjutsu is used that it actually is is just living in denial.
That's not what is being said, though. What is being said is that they are the only verifiable lineages left. Saying that the brussel sprouts I serve you is really ice cream doesn't mean that anyone is biased against brussel sprouts, it just means that we are looking at what something actually is, and calling them what they are.
Antony is bitter and angry about having his fantasies destroyed. His training, history, and so forth, are highly exaggerated and his ability to research is highly suspect. He holds no place to make comment.
James Loriega is from a supposed Koga lineage that never existed and has been unable to prove anything close to an actual link to Japan or similar. His take is based on incorrect learning when it comes to such things, and has no authority or position as an expert in any regard.
Professor Karl (with a "K") Friday is a senior member of the Kashima Shinryu and a Professor of Asian studies. He has gone on record as stating that he has not looked into the lineages, has no opinion, and no interest. Where do you get these sources from?
Although there have been some who do not support the claims of the Ryu-ha in the Bujinkan, it should be noted that at least as many do support the claims, such as Okuse, Nawa, and Otake Sensei of the Katori Shinto Ryu (so you know).
That's quite a leap there. You've gone from a few disgruntled former members making a huge fuss to thinking that that automatically dismisses the legitimacy of the Bujinkan. It really doesn't, and in no way supports the claims of others.
Effective has no place in the discussion of historical authenticity. It's an argument made by those who have no belief in the authenticity of their own system. I might add that it has even less relevance when dealing with a skill set such as ninjutsu.
For studying Ninjutsu, no. For going about it the way you are, with good advice that you ignored, education that you completely avoid, and so on, that's a little more likely.
Er, this supports what exactly? Allie supports the historical veracity, he just says that that's not his big kick. I do disagree with what he classes as "his ninjutsu", but I feel that comes from, as he says, his non-legit teachers.
Once more, though, "Can you fight" is completely irrelevant when it comes to any claim to teach a historical art.
Er, what? I really don't see the relevance of that one whatsoever.
Look, I'm not going to go through the details of Allie's departure from the Genbukan here. Again, this is not the place.
Seen it. The reason Antony was featured is simple, he has been pursuing any form of media attention whatsoever. That in no way indicates any form of credibility to him. The amount of credibility this show has is only marginally more than the "Ninja versus Spartan" episode of Deadliest Warrior.
Well, the first big issue is calling James Loriega and Antony Cummins "highly respected scholar-practitioners", as they are none of the above. They are not practitioners, they are not scholars, and they certainly are not highly respected. Beyond that, I saw nothing there with much basis in real understanding of anything to do with Japanese martial arts, Ninjutsu, or anything related. It was, frankly, a horrifically bad "documentary".
Oh, and before you get to my comment about Loriega not being a practitioner, I am refering to legitimate systems. The shot of him next to Hayes was taken at a "Ninja Summit" put on by Testuji Higuchi, a man who was claiming to be a close student of Hatsumi, but had no connection to him whatsoever. He pulled that for a while, but once found out it was over in terms of any legit association. At that time, though, the "summit" would take anyone who wanted to turn up, and it was no indication of legitimacy (on a number of counts).
No, he really isn't.
Steve is an interesting soul, in many ways. He will do whatever he can to not say anything bad about someone, and seems to be stretching that to breaking point with Antony.
I can understand that. The issue with Christa is not her training methodology, it's the veracity and honesty with which she comports herself. The big issue is her claims of "Tomo Ryu", which doesn't seem to exist in any time or place in history other than in Christa's stories.
More information has come to me from a former Bujinkan member in Canada who was there at the time, and frankly, Robert Law was never a Bujinkan member. He hosted a few seminars, used them as photo ops, and never trained. He didn't "break away", as he was never a part of it in the first place. Same with Antony, despite his claims (this is actually backed up by Antony himself, contradicting his own story a few times).
Robert Law has no credibility when it comes to Bujinkan.
Ah, that video. It's interesting, really. Especially when Antony contradicts himself (he was kicked out of the Bujinkan, despite never being a member? How does that work?). For the record, Dennis Bartrum has been contacted about this, and has stated categorically that this is not the way things went down, Antony was never his student aside from an occasional seminar, certainly not a student for 10 years, and so on. All this does is remove even more credibility from Antony's claims and his "understanding" of these topics, and shows his anger for the Bujinkan not living up to his fantasies.
I'm going to invite you over to MAP to try to debate these things, if you think you have a point. The rules there are a little more leniant for such discussion. Here is not the place.
Seriously, you're bringing up that ridiculous list again? It is really, more than anything else, evidence that Robert Law lives in fantasy land, and has no real knowledge of anything to do with Japanese martial arts. This is the third time you've posted it here, and frankly I'm a little tired of constantly saying the same thing about it. I suggest you think twice before trying to post it as any form of support again.
Really. That piece was a full of holes, lies, mis-interpretations, and more. It supports only a rather ill-concieved agenda. Not a good source. Especially if you think it supports James Loriega as having anything to do with authentic Ninjutsu arts.
Enjoying it is fine. But thinking that just because the term Ninjutsu is used that it actually is is just living in denial.
That's not what is being said, though. What is being said is that they are the only verifiable lineages left. Saying that the brussel sprouts I serve you is really ice cream doesn't mean that anyone is biased against brussel sprouts, it just means that we are looking at what something actually is, and calling them what they are.
Antony is bitter and angry about having his fantasies destroyed. His training, history, and so forth, are highly exaggerated and his ability to research is highly suspect. He holds no place to make comment.
James Loriega is from a supposed Koga lineage that never existed and has been unable to prove anything close to an actual link to Japan or similar. His take is based on incorrect learning when it comes to such things, and has no authority or position as an expert in any regard.
Professor Karl (with a "K") Friday is a senior member of the Kashima Shinryu and a Professor of Asian studies. He has gone on record as stating that he has not looked into the lineages, has no opinion, and no interest. Where do you get these sources from?
Although there have been some who do not support the claims of the Ryu-ha in the Bujinkan, it should be noted that at least as many do support the claims, such as Okuse, Nawa, and Otake Sensei of the Katori Shinto Ryu (so you know).
That's quite a leap there. You've gone from a few disgruntled former members making a huge fuss to thinking that that automatically dismisses the legitimacy of the Bujinkan. It really doesn't, and in no way supports the claims of others.
Effective has no place in the discussion of historical authenticity. It's an argument made by those who have no belief in the authenticity of their own system. I might add that it has even less relevance when dealing with a skill set such as ninjutsu.
For studying Ninjutsu, no. For going about it the way you are, with good advice that you ignored, education that you completely avoid, and so on, that's a little more likely.
Er, this supports what exactly? Allie supports the historical veracity, he just says that that's not his big kick. I do disagree with what he classes as "his ninjutsu", but I feel that comes from, as he says, his non-legit teachers.
Once more, though, "Can you fight" is completely irrelevant when it comes to any claim to teach a historical art.
Er, what? I really don't see the relevance of that one whatsoever.
Look, I'm not going to go through the details of Allie's departure from the Genbukan here. Again, this is not the place.
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