Bruce Lee wasn't a God

[Wing Woo Gar]

Which is another reason it makes a horrible weapon. They get your hands all sticky

The bacon grease will protect you from the sticky, but you know that already.

 

[Steve]

It’s a turn of expression, not that he was an actual deity.

I think you need to qualify that. By what are you measuring this?

Well that’s pure speculation since it sounds like you didn’t practise JKD.

I think the issue many have is that-

Many? Does that correlate to some kind of number? Is that fewer than most but more than some?

1) His art went untested and there are still no notable practitioners.

And is that any different from other styles? MAny consider him to the the philosophical grandfather of modern mma. Is it possible that he simply died too soon and his style and philosophy were misapplied by his students?

2) His art/philosophy was derivative at best.

It’s all derivative, to a point. Karate is derivative. BJJ is derivative.

3) From reading well referenced biographies, he was conceited, he was unfaithful to his wife so didn’t put his moral/philosophical ideas into practise (he was a hypocrit) and he was a terrible actor!

well now you’re just being petty.

 

[HighKick]

It’s a turn of expression, not that he was an actual deity.

I think you need to qualify that. By what are you measuring this?

Well that’s pure speculation since it sounds like you didn’t practise JKD.

I think the issue many have is that-

1) His art went untested and there are still no notable practitioners.
2) His art/philosophy was derivative at best.
3) From reading well referenced biographies, he was conceited, he was unfaithful to his wife so didn’t put his moral/philosophical ideas into practise (he was a hypocrit) and he was a terrible actor!

"Definition of 'your two cents' worth'your opinion about something. The British expression is your two penn'orth.'
2-cents worth

 

[Gyakuto]

"Definition of 'your two cents' worth'your opinion about something. The British expression is your two penn'orth.'
2-cents worth

Luckily, I have a working understanding of American.

 

[HighKick]

Luckily, I have a working understanding of American.

I believe that door swings both ways.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Chinese equivalent

只是我的 2 个芬
zhǐ shìwǒde 2 gè fēn
Just my 2 fen

 

[Buka]

I thought I did. Huh. If not, I should have.

Yeah, I should have, too. But it usually opens a can of worms.

That being said, I know several people that worked out with Bruce Lee. Very good Martial Artists these people.

They had nothing but good things to say about Lee’s skills. And most of these folks weren’t exactly the warm and fuzzy types.

 

[Gyakuto]

Yeah, I should have, too. But it usually opens a can of worms.

That being said, I know several people that worked out with Bruce Lee. Very good Martial Artists these people.

I’m sure Lee was an exceptional looking martial artist for his time, but my suspicion is that was a personal, individual trait. The fact I’ve never heard of a notable practitioner of Jeet Kune Do or heard of a JKD exponent become a champion in tournaments (I know, I know, contests are not a true measure of martial ability, but they’re something that indicates fighting skill of sorts) makes me think his art is nothing beyond the many other arts that are around, despite Lee’s claims of only taking the best bits of many martial arts and adding them to JKD. He was quick and skilled but that was down to the idiosyncrasies of his neurophysiology and anatomy and thus they is not transferable. He was good, but the art he spent years devising and refining is not particularly exceptional. From what I’ve seen of Lee’s demos, his skill was what would be referred to as ‘sen no sen’ or ‘sensen no sen’ to Japanese martial artists explained in this amusing cartoon!

They had nothing but good things to say about Lee’s skills. And most of these folks weren’t exactly the warm and fuzzy types.

In classes moves are set up…”Punch/kick me here [and then stand still while I do my fancy stuff]”. It can look amazing in that context and they are for teaching purposes, of course. But it is a contrivance and that can be very deceptive, one we mustn’t conflate with ‘martial effectiveness‘.

 

[Steve]

I’m sure Lee was an exceptional looking martial artist for his time, but my suspicion is that was a personal, individual trait. The fact I’ve never heard of a notable practitioner of Jeet Kune Do or heard of a JKD exponent become a champion in tournaments (I know, I know, contests are not a true measure of martial ability, but they’re something that indicates fighting skill of sorts) makes me think his art is nothing beyond the many other arts that are around, despite Lee’s claims of only taking the best bits of many martial arts and adding them to JKD. He was quick and skilled but that was down to the idiosyncrasies of his neurophysiology and anatomy and thus they is not transferable. He was good, but the art he spent years devising and refining is not particularly exceptional. From what I’ve seen of Lee’s demos, his skill was what would be referred to as ‘sen no sen’ or ‘sensen no sen’ to Japanese martial artists explained in this amusing cartoon!

He also died really young. How long did he have to teach?

have you ever heard of the Bahá’í religion? I’m definitely not an expert, but I’ve always been intrigued by their concept of progressive revelation. Basically, the idea is that each religion learned a piece of the whole puzzle, but made the same mistake of believing that theirs was the final piece. So they all got stuck at some point on the revelatory path.

it’s impossible to know, but what if the issues with JKD are the same issues as with any traditional style, in that they all stop growing when the originator of the style dies. The founder is the font of wisdom.

What’s intriguing is that a lot of what made Bruce Lee a pariah in some MA circles is his Inclination to futz around and try new things.
He liked to cross train. It’s possible that, had he lived to a ripe old age, his students would have been training BJJ, wrestling, along with king fu/JKD and killing it in MMA.

View attachment 31120

In classes moves are set up…”Punch/kick me here [and then stand still while I do my fancy stuff]”. It can look amazing in that context and they are for teaching purposes, of course. But it is a contrivance and that can be very deceptive, one we mustn’t conflate with ‘martial effectiveness‘.

Frankly this describes pretty much every school that thinks about and purports to teach primarily what their founder intended. What I think is intriguing is how Bruce Lee trained, which is where I believe most MA schools go wrong. It’s not the material that lets people down.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

He also died really young. How long did he have to teach?

have you ever heard of the Bahá’í religion? I’m definitely not an expert, but I’ve always been intrigued by their concept of progressive revelation. Basically, the idea is that each religion learned a piece of the whole puzzle, but made the same mistake of believing that theirs was the final piece. So they all got stuck at some point on the revelatory path.

it’s impossible to know, but what if the issues with JKD are the same issues as with any traditional style, in that they all stop growing when the originator of the style dies. The founder is the font of wisdom.

What’s intriguing is that a lot of what made Bruce Lee a pariah in some MA circles is his Inclination to futz around and try new things.
He liked to cross train. It’s possible that, had he lived to a ripe old age, his students would have been training BJJ, wrestling, along with king fu/JKD and killing it in MMA.



Frankly this describes pretty much every school that thinks about and purports to teach primarily what their founder intended. What I think is intriguing is how Bruce Lee trained, which is where I believe most MA schools go wrong. It’s not the material that lets people down.

According to Sifu Woo, it was Bruce Lees penchant for running his mouth in a very cocky disrespectful way with the older practitioners that made him a pariah. As far as the way he lived and trained, Sifu Woo said Lee had 2 girlfriends, a wife, movie work, training, etc etc. on how many ends can you burn a candle? I don’t discount his personal skill, I liked his movies as a kid. As far as JKD, meh. It’s Wing Chun with some extras.

 

[Steve]

According to Sifu Woo, it was Bruce Lees penchant for running his mouth in a very cocky disrespectful way with the older practitioners that made him a pariah. As far as the way he lived and trained, Sifu Woo said Lee had 2 girlfriends, a wife, movie work, training, etc etc. on how many ends can you burn a candle? I don’t discount his personal skill, I liked his movies as a kid. As far as JKD, meh. It’s Wing Chun with some extras.

Did Bruce Lee not cross train with boxers, judoka and other martial artists? When someone dies young, there is a lot of opportunity to shape the narrative. If the argument on one side is that his positive influence is outsized, isn’t it possible that some folks are painting an unrealistic picture on the negative size?

It seems to me that some of his detractors stood to gain personally by discounting him.

 

[Buka]

I’m sure Lee was an exceptional looking martial artist for his time, but my suspicion is that was a personal, individual trait. The fact I’ve never heard of a notable practitioner of Jeet Kune Do or heard of a JKD exponent become a champion in tournaments (I know, I know, contests are not a true measure of martial ability, but they’re something that indicates fighting skill of sorts) makes me think his art is nothing beyond the many other arts that are around, despite Lee’s claims of only taking the best bits of many martial arts and adding them to JKD. He was quick and skilled but that was down to the idiosyncrasies of his neurophysiology and anatomy and thus they is not transferable. He was good, but the art he spent years devising and refining is not particularly exceptional. From what I’ve seen of Lee’s demos, his skill was what would be referred to as ‘sen no sen’ or ‘sensen no sen’ to Japanese martial artists explained in this amusing cartoon!
View attachment 31120

In classes moves are set up…”Punch/kick me here [and then stand still while I do my fancy stuff]”. It can look amazing in that context and they are for teaching purposes, of course. But it is a contrivance and that can be very deceptive, one we mustn’t conflate with ‘martial effectiveness‘.

I never mentioned his art. Just his skills.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Did Bruce Lee not cross train with boxers, judoka and other martial artists? When someone dies young, there is a lot of opportunity to shape the narrative. If the argument on one side is that his positive influence is outsized, isn’t it possible that some folks are painting an unrealistic picture on the negative size?

It seems to me that some of his detractors stood to gain personally by discounting him.

Did Bruce Lee not cross train with boxers, judoka and other martial artists? When someone dies young, there is a lot of opportunity to shape the narrative. If the argument on one side is that his positive influence is outsized, isn’t it possible that some folks are painting an unrealistic picture on the negative size?

It seems to me that some of his detractors stood to gain personally by discounting him.

I don’t know much of his personal life. I checked out the JKD art once upon a time. I only offered my little story 2nd hand from someone who knew him. Sifu Woo was good friends with Gene Lebell, Gene had a lot of contact with Lee. I don’t mean to impugn Bruce Lees character or reputation, nor do I seek to inflate it. Im not sure how anyone benefits or gains personally from someone else’s early demise. The fact that celebrities attract detractors is never surprising. If the celebrity in question is loudly detracting from contemporaries in order to boost their personal reputation, it’s a guarantee.

 

[seasoned]

Love him or leave him he popularized martial arts and filled a lot of dojo because of it. Early 70's he was the man......

 

[isshinryuronin]

The fact I’ve never heard of a notable practitioner of Jeet Kune Do or heard of a JKD exponent become a champion

See Steve's quote below:

He also died really young. How long did he have to teach?

Good point. And another reason he had no expert students is he really did not teach that much in any one spot. He was on the move - San Francisco, LA, Hong Kong, making movies, writing, doing self-promotion, training on his own, etc. He was a busy guy and teaching was not his top priority. So, him producing no champions can't be attributed to his system. I don't think anyone was around him long enough to get that good.

Whether his system was good can be up for debate - HE was good, as Gyakuto noted.

 

[Gyakuto]

From my experience, those who place Lee on a high pedestal tend to have little or no experience in the martial arts. It was they who told me about Lee when I was a kids nd i wasn’t old enough to get into his films. They frequented snooker clubs, had souped up Ford Cortinas and wore baseball caps…backwards, they owned nunchakus but that was the extent of their experience in the MA.

 

[Xue Sheng]

From my experience, those who place Lee on a high pedestal tend to have little or no experience in the martial arts. It was they who told me about Lee when I was a kids nd i wasn’t old enough to get into his films. They frequented snooker clubs, had souped up Ford Cortinas and wore baseball caps…backwards, they owned nunchakus but that was the extent of their experience in the MA.

I have meant a few very good, and rather skilled, JKD guys who think pretty highly of him. JKD guys i most certainly would not want to get in a fight with

 

[mograph]

He was quick and skilled but that was down to the idiosyncrasies of his neurophysiology and anatomy and thus they is not transferable.

I think we can all agree on this part?

 

[Steve]

From my experience, those who place Lee on a high pedestal tend to have little or no experience in the martial arts. It was they who told me about Lee when I was a kids nd i wasn’t old enough to get into his films. They frequented snooker clubs, had souped up Ford Cortinas and wore baseball caps…backwards, they owned nunchakus but that was the extent of their experience in the MA.

You’ve been carrying this grudge for a really, really long time. Snooker clubs and ford cortinas?

 

[HighKick]

From my experience, those who place Lee on a high pedestal tend to have little or no experience in the martial arts. It was they who told me about Lee when I was a kids nd i wasn’t old enough to get into his films. They frequented snooker clubs, had souped up Ford Cortinas and wore baseball caps…backwards, they owned nunchakus but that was the extent of their experience in the MA.

For Cortina's. Showing your age a little?