With boxing rules I would give it to Ali, with no rules I would give it to Bruce Lee, but I also would never necessarily consider that a given. Ali was bigger and could also be very surprising. Interesting to consider but we will never know.
Bruce Lee vs. Muhammad Ali who would win?
- Thread starter Joab
- Start date
Why does everyone assume that a guy with no verifiable documentation of any fights would somehow magically win if there were no rules? Several people have made this comment in this thread, and I'm sorry, but the logic doesn't hold up.
Didn't some pro karate league have to change the rules to force more kicks at one point because because boxers were going in and cleaning people clocks?
I hate to say it but this mentality is one of the reasons that TMA's get knocked.
It is the same mentality that I've seen in kendo when a guy lost a match to someone else and then spouted off all this crap about Musashi and how if targets weren't limited then he would have done thus and so. The guy is an idiot. No rules mean that the other guy can do the exact same thing.
Pro boxers train at a level far and above that of a movie martial artist. So do pro MMA competitors. Now, Lee probably trained harder than every other movie martial artist of his day, and maybe of any day, but he was still a movie martial artist who's profession was making movies. All that flashy stuff he did was for looking cool in a movie.
I have seen numerous XMA threads where the entire board goes off about how the flashy stuff in XMA isn't applicable in an actual fight, be it tournament or otherwise. How is it that everyone somehow forgets this when Bruce Lee comes up?
Oh yes! He beat up a movie extra who ran his mouth on the set of one of his movies! Now it all makes sense.
Ali was full of bravado and he put it on the line and proved it in what was the biggest, most visible venue of the day.
Lee supposedly said that he could beat any man alive in a real fight. If he said this, he never did anything to prove.
But what was Bruce Lee really?
He has tons of rumor and legend, but the only actual fight mentioned was an unverifiable boxing match on Wikipedia against some guy named Gary Elms, a supposed three time champion (no federation or organization mentioned; big red flag). I sure can't find anything on the fight or even the man himself exept on pages that brag about Lee and read pretty much like the bio given in Wiki and in tributes in MA mags.
Admittedly, I didn't look that hard, but he doesn't even rate a Wikipedia page of his own, so I honestly can't take the claim seriously, nor that of three supposed knockouts in the first round against unnamed opponents.
So what is he? He's a guy who studied Wing Chun for five years, did some tai chi, some boxing and some fencing, then went off to create a style of his own, start a movie career, and train a cadre of loyal disciples. He contributed greatly to the promulgation of martial arts and made some fantastic movies and developed a fantastic system who's merits are accepted as tried and true by many accomplished fighters and martial artists. And he died at 33. That is a serious accomplishment! I sure can't claim that kind of accomplishment, and very few people in any field can claim that kind of accomplishment.
Look, I'm probably sounding like a Bruce Lee hater at this point, but I assure you that I am not. But for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?
Daniel
Didn't some pro karate league have to change the rules to force more kicks at one point because because boxers were going in and cleaning people clocks?
I hate to say it but this mentality is one of the reasons that TMA's get knocked.
It is the same mentality that I've seen in kendo when a guy lost a match to someone else and then spouted off all this crap about Musashi and how if targets weren't limited then he would have done thus and so. The guy is an idiot. No rules mean that the other guy can do the exact same thing.
Pro boxers train at a level far and above that of a movie martial artist. So do pro MMA competitors. Now, Lee probably trained harder than every other movie martial artist of his day, and maybe of any day, but he was still a movie martial artist who's profession was making movies. All that flashy stuff he did was for looking cool in a movie.
I have seen numerous XMA threads where the entire board goes off about how the flashy stuff in XMA isn't applicable in an actual fight, be it tournament or otherwise. How is it that everyone somehow forgets this when Bruce Lee comes up?
Oh yes! He beat up a movie extra who ran his mouth on the set of one of his movies! Now it all makes sense.
Ali was full of bravado and he put it on the line and proved it in what was the biggest, most visible venue of the day.
Lee supposedly said that he could beat any man alive in a real fight. If he said this, he never did anything to prove.
But what was Bruce Lee really?
He has tons of rumor and legend, but the only actual fight mentioned was an unverifiable boxing match on Wikipedia against some guy named Gary Elms, a supposed three time champion (no federation or organization mentioned; big red flag). I sure can't find anything on the fight or even the man himself exept on pages that brag about Lee and read pretty much like the bio given in Wiki and in tributes in MA mags.
Admittedly, I didn't look that hard, but he doesn't even rate a Wikipedia page of his own, so I honestly can't take the claim seriously, nor that of three supposed knockouts in the first round against unnamed opponents.
So what is he? He's a guy who studied Wing Chun for five years, did some tai chi, some boxing and some fencing, then went off to create a style of his own, start a movie career, and train a cadre of loyal disciples. He contributed greatly to the promulgation of martial arts and made some fantastic movies and developed a fantastic system who's merits are accepted as tried and true by many accomplished fighters and martial artists. And he died at 33. That is a serious accomplishment! I sure can't claim that kind of accomplishment, and very few people in any field can claim that kind of accomplishment.
Look, I'm probably sounding like a Bruce Lee hater at this point, but I assure you that I am not. But for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?
Daniel
Last edited:
Really, really well-put, Daniel. This is what I was trying to get at. Bruce Lee's greatest triumph, his real legacy, is the Bruce Lee in our minds, our image of him as this sinewy, whipcord-tough fighter who simply could not be defeated, almost a force of nature. And that's the image he worked very hard to craft for us. He succeeded, absolutely. But the truth is, we really don't know what his down-and-dirty fighting skills were. With Ali, we have a totally clear picture—it's all there, televised, against radically non-compliant opponents, in match after match. Ali wasn't shy about defending his title. And we know pretty much just how strong his oppo's were as well, because their records were out in public view in just the same way.
And Ali, great as he was, fast, skillful and fearsomely powerful with his punches... did lose, sometimes, to other highly skilled boxers. Joe Lewis lost, Rocky Marciano lost...it can happen to the very best. So no one should be too certain that on the day, someone whose knowledge of real-world violent combat we have only the murkiest idea of might have lost to one of the greatest boxers of all time, if not the very greatest. That's why I said that I'd prefer not to bet on this one. And I think the plain fact is, there's very little objective reason for anyone to feel particularly sure that Lee would have won, no matter how much they may admire him for his many world-class accomplishments, along the lines Daniel listed...
Originally Posted by Daniel Sullivan 
...for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?
Daniel
Daniel that one is easy Wolverine with stoppage during the second round do to multiple cuts.
...for Heaven's sake, can't discussions about the man not sound like comic fanboys debating whether or not Wolverine could beat Spiderman?
Daniel
Daniel that one is easy Wolverine with stoppage during the second round do to multiple cuts.
Absolutely. The only reason I picked one is because the OP asked and, of course, there's nothing on the line.
Daniel
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
OK who would win in a fight?
Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan in a knock down bare knuckled brawl
Or maybe better
Batman vs Jessie the Body Ventura following the Marquess of Queensberry rules
I'm sorry guys but these questions and ensuing debated and occasional arguments are just plain silly to me, but then maybe it is just me
Who would win in a fight, Bruce Lee who studied Wing Chun a for a bit and developed JKD and may or may not have been in several fights and is dead or Muhammad Ali who was a great fighter and is currently a Parkinson's sufferer.
Frankly I have never seen my Sanda Sifu in a fight but I am betting he could stand up pretty well against either and it proves nothing
I don't really care if Ali could beat Bruce or Bruce could beat Ali. I am guessing if both were alive and healthy that this would never have been an issue and Bruce may have studied Ali to improve JKD, who knows. Both men have done their share of good things and both have made their mistakes the rest is pure speculation
Sorry I just had to say something, I leave you to your debate
Attila the Hun or Genghis Khan in a knock down bare knuckled brawl
Or maybe better
Batman vs Jessie the Body Ventura following the Marquess of Queensberry rules
I'm sorry guys but these questions and ensuing debated and occasional arguments are just plain silly to me, but then maybe it is just me
Who would win in a fight, Bruce Lee who studied Wing Chun a for a bit and developed JKD and may or may not have been in several fights and is dead or Muhammad Ali who was a great fighter and is currently a Parkinson's sufferer.
Frankly I have never seen my Sanda Sifu in a fight but I am betting he could stand up pretty well against either and it proves nothing
I don't really care if Ali could beat Bruce or Bruce could beat Ali. I am guessing if both were alive and healthy that this would never have been an issue and Bruce may have studied Ali to improve JKD, who knows. Both men have done their share of good things and both have made their mistakes the rest is pure speculation
Sorry I just had to say something, I leave you to your debate
I think that such debates can be beneficial. When discussed honestly, they force us to look a little closer at the people in question. We're on Martial Talk, so it is a given that we've all studied Bruce Lee to some extent or another, some even studying his system.
But how much do most people, particularly young people, who aren't boxers actually study Ali?
How many martial artists have an inkling of Ali's record? We all probably know Chuck Norris' record or at least have a good idea of it.
We all know that Lee studied boxing and fencing, but how many knew that Ali studied taekeondo under Jhoon Rhee? I did, but I live in the DC area and went to a Jhoon Rhee school when I was a kid.
That sure puts a different spin on the quantity of tools in Ali's box, though.
There's a lot of cool facts about Ali, and Xue, I'm sure that had he lived longer, Lee would have studied with Ali. Now that's a training session that would have been historical.
The wonderful thing about Lee was his openness to the effectiveness of styles outside of his base. He studied western boxing and he even studied fencing and applied its mechanics to his system. He also trained with Jhoon Rhee.
What Lee did was the basis for modern MMA. He also made the martial arts movie a viable choice for a western audience with Enter the Dragon.
Kept in the light of learning about people that we may not normally think about, such debates can be healthy.
Daniel.
But how much do most people, particularly young people, who aren't boxers actually study Ali?
How many martial artists have an inkling of Ali's record? We all probably know Chuck Norris' record or at least have a good idea of it.
We all know that Lee studied boxing and fencing, but how many knew that Ali studied taekeondo under Jhoon Rhee? I did, but I live in the DC area and went to a Jhoon Rhee school when I was a kid.
That sure puts a different spin on the quantity of tools in Ali's box, though.
There's a lot of cool facts about Ali, and Xue, I'm sure that had he lived longer, Lee would have studied with Ali. Now that's a training session that would have been historical.
The wonderful thing about Lee was his openness to the effectiveness of styles outside of his base. He studied western boxing and he even studied fencing and applied its mechanics to his system. He also trained with Jhoon Rhee.
What Lee did was the basis for modern MMA. He also made the martial arts movie a viable choice for a western audience with Enter the Dragon.
Kept in the light of learning about people that we may not normally think about, such debates can be healthy.
Daniel.
Xue Sheng
All weight is underside
Now that post I liked much better than who could beat who in a fight and why because, IMO, those Person X vs. Person Y debates in the long run tend to end up belittle one or the other.
Thanks. :asian:
I don't seem to remember Ali ever being respectful of anyone he fought. He would have trash talked about Bruce's abilities and knowledge just like everyone else he fought.
I'd take Ali in a no holds barred over Lee. By the way, Ali kicks like a freight train. Does anyone know that he doesn't? If he has that many fast twitch muscles for punching he probably has the same in his legs.
Ali's trash talking was also a part of gaining a psychological edge over other boxers whom he would be fighting. I'm not a fan of that, but I understand the principle behind it.
I don't know that he trash talked outside of that context (maybe he did, but I haven't dug that deeply into Ali's behavior outside of the ring).
Edit: he probably would have been respectful of Lee's abilities until a match was scheduled, then he'd have taken the time to trash talk right up to moment of stepping into the ring.
Daniel
I don't know that he trash talked outside of that context (maybe he did, but I haven't dug that deeply into Ali's behavior outside of the ring).
Edit: he probably would have been respectful of Lee's abilities until a match was scheduled, then he'd have taken the time to trash talk right up to moment of stepping into the ring.
Daniel
myusername
Brown Belt
Well said Daniel! That is exactly the point I was making in this thread when I referred to him using the power of the sun up his backside! LOL
The way that the two trained were dramatically different. Training in a sport where you can only use your hands is very different than training to use everything as a potential weapon. Hearing the way people Like Joe Lewis and Chuck Norris talk about the skills of Bruce Lee are pretty good testimonials. I only met Ali once (although I watched countless hours of tapes of his fights) and I never met Bruce Lee so I can't have a qualified opinion.Only a guess. Either way, it would have been great to see a fight like that. Both men were very remarkable.
- Thread Starter
- #33
Well, we will never know, but I think it can be fun to conjecture about who would win this fantasy fight. I'm pro fun. With Lee's speed you have to respect his ability, in a no holds barred fight I still think Lee would win, in the boxing ring, Ali.
I agree. I don't think most boxers are well prepared to deal with fast kicks as well as many of the other weapons that can be used. I am a huge Ali fan, however, realistically he did try fighting people outside of boxing at times and I read it didn't go well for Ali. Ali could be surprising though so I don't count him out 100%.
The only recorded fight that Ali had outside of boxing was with Antonio Inoki. The rules were such that Ali was not allowed to do anything but box and Inoki had to keep on hand on the ground. Thus Inoki spent all of his time kicking at Ali's legs and Ali spent most of his time dodging kicks. Ali did not fare particularly well and should never have agreed to such an idiotic rule set, exhibition or no.
The rules that were agreed upon were set up to specifically keep Inoki from grappling and Ali from doing anything but punching. In a no holds barred fight, Ali could have kicked, and he did know how.
I stand by what I said earlier: Lee has no documented fight history and all of his cool stunts were either movie fights or with compliant partners at exhibitions. And no, beating up a mouthy movie extra off camera doesn't count.
The big problem I see with this is that Ali must be evaluated on a technical level while all rules and logic are somehow dismissed with Lee. And everyone also assumes that Ali would just stick with queensbury rules outside of the ring.
Using that logic, Lee would always fight as if he were on a movie set with partners who are paid to lose. Anyone can be blindingly fast in exhibitions and movies. In a real fight with extremely noncompliant parterns, some level of technique is generally lost due to adrenaline and body reactions. Lee has no background to train around this. Ali does. Many years of it.
Also, Lee was never subjected to the kind of punnishment that Ali and his contemporaries proved that they could both withstand and deliver. After all, using Lee's own words, boards don't hit back. Neither do compliant partners. And movie fights don't count.
And if you don't think that being in the ring with George Foreman or Joe Frazier counts, then you'd be mistaken.
Another technical comment; Ali in his prime had well over a decade to hone his reflexes, timing and distance, to work an opponent's angles, and to set up and finish an opponent. This is not an advantage that Lee is documented to have developed to the same degree.
So for, nobody has gone into any sort of comparison of Lee's particular style and how it would compare to Ali's outside of the ring (accounting for Ali having skills greater than just his boxing skills). That would be an interesting discussion, but if it could have been done, it would have.
Since Lee never tested his style against anyone in any documented fight, we have no clear picture of how he would have fared against an opponent like Ali. Likewise, while we know that Ali could kick we have no documented fight in which he displayed the skills.
But I think that it would be fair to say that Lee would have been able to apply his style in an actual fight and Ali would have been able to apply his ability to kick in a fight (either by kicking or using his famiarity with kicks to defend against an opponent's kicks).
Daniel
The rules that were agreed upon were set up to specifically keep Inoki from grappling and Ali from doing anything but punching. In a no holds barred fight, Ali could have kicked, and he did know how.
I stand by what I said earlier: Lee has no documented fight history and all of his cool stunts were either movie fights or with compliant partners at exhibitions. And no, beating up a mouthy movie extra off camera doesn't count.
The big problem I see with this is that Ali must be evaluated on a technical level while all rules and logic are somehow dismissed with Lee. And everyone also assumes that Ali would just stick with queensbury rules outside of the ring.
Using that logic, Lee would always fight as if he were on a movie set with partners who are paid to lose. Anyone can be blindingly fast in exhibitions and movies. In a real fight with extremely noncompliant parterns, some level of technique is generally lost due to adrenaline and body reactions. Lee has no background to train around this. Ali does. Many years of it.
Also, Lee was never subjected to the kind of punnishment that Ali and his contemporaries proved that they could both withstand and deliver. After all, using Lee's own words, boards don't hit back. Neither do compliant partners. And movie fights don't count.
And if you don't think that being in the ring with George Foreman or Joe Frazier counts, then you'd be mistaken.
Another technical comment; Ali in his prime had well over a decade to hone his reflexes, timing and distance, to work an opponent's angles, and to set up and finish an opponent. This is not an advantage that Lee is documented to have developed to the same degree.
So for, nobody has gone into any sort of comparison of Lee's particular style and how it would compare to Ali's outside of the ring (accounting for Ali having skills greater than just his boxing skills). That would be an interesting discussion, but if it could have been done, it would have.
Since Lee never tested his style against anyone in any documented fight, we have no clear picture of how he would have fared against an opponent like Ali. Likewise, while we know that Ali could kick we have no documented fight in which he displayed the skills.
But I think that it would be fair to say that Lee would have been able to apply his style in an actual fight and Ali would have been able to apply his ability to kick in a fight (either by kicking or using his famiarity with kicks to defend against an opponent's kicks).
Daniel
Tom Bleecker
White Belt
I think the major problem here is that many of those responding never met Bruce Lee and are overlooking his incredibly small stature compared to Muhammad Ali. When Bruce died, he weighed about 125 pounds at a height of 5' 7". Most of our girlfriends are bigger. Does anyone really think that he would have a chance against a man who is arguably the greatest boxer of all time and was nearly twice the size of Bruce -- not to mention the incredible advantage in arm reach and power?
kaizasosei
Master Black Belt
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I agree with the above post, But i would add that i think that if Bruce pulled a fast slick move at the right time, with his skill and spirit wailing he could probably have taken Ali out but if they squared off most likely, Bruce could be overpowered. But if he managed to use his kicks effectively, surely that would be an advantage. Also, a spirit like Lee's could defeat anyone if given the opportunity however chances are, at the level Bruce was at, he'd have been facing problems although his striking was quite precise and strong, Ali being heavyset and larger as well as very quick and responsive would not be so easy to really hit with great effect.
Tom Bleecker
White Belt
I posted this earlier, but it didn't post. Anyway, I think many who have answered this question overlook the very real difference in the size of these men. At the time of his death, Bruce weighed about 125 pounds with a height of 5' 7". Compare this to Ali's massive size -- not to mention his huge advange in reach. This fight would have ended very quickly.
JWLuiza
Black Belt
This is why weight classes exist!
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