Break Fall Comparison

[wab25]

In Danzan Ryu, we fall a little differently than other arts. I will use Judo as the example... since most other arts fall similar to the Judo falls. In particular, the biggest difference is in the position of the legs and feet. Usually, when I ask Judo guys why the falls are different, they say because you are doing it wrong. When I ask Danzan Ryu guys, they tell me its because the Judo guys are doing it wrong. Neither response is helpful.

I will say that both styles of falling work. I have used DZR falls in randori with DZR guys, Judo guys, MMA guys, BJJ guys, Karate guys and wrestlers. I have used my DZR falls on concrete for demos and on concrete when I have taken real falls. However, I know quite a few Judo guys have done the same.

I am still interested in why the differences. I would love to hear your guys opinions on the pros and cons of each style. (if you just want to say one style is doing it wrong, I have already heard that...)

First Danzan Ryu. The fall in question is the one starting at 22 seconds into this video. The rolling version then gets developed into a flat fall and then into a Sutemi, shown later in the same video.

The Judo version is shown here starting at 3:45 into the video.

I have my own thoughts on what I believe the differences are... or more importantly, what the different effects of the differences are. But, I would hardly call myself an expert here. I would like to hear your thoughts and opinions on the differences in these falls.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When you fall. the most important things are:

- Don't let the back of your head to hit on the hard ground.
- Don't expose your body so your opponent can drop his knee on your body.

When your body is rotating in the air, you truly don't know which part of your body will land first. Protect your head is more important than comfortable landing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In Danzan Ryu, we fall a little differently than other arts. I will use Judo as the example... since most other arts fall similar to the Judo falls. In particular, the biggest difference is in the position of the legs and feet. Usually, when I ask Judo guys why the falls are different, they say because you are doing it wrong. When I ask Danzan Ryu guys, they tell me its because the Judo guys are doing it wrong. Neither response is helpful.

I will say that both styles of falling work. I have used DZR falls in randori with DZR guys, Judo guys, MMA guys, BJJ guys, Karate guys and wrestlers. I have used my DZR falls on concrete for demos and on concrete when I have taken real falls. However, I know quite a few Judo guys have done the same.

I am still interested in why the differences. I would love to hear your guys opinions on the pros and cons of each style. (if you just want to say one style is doing it wrong, I have already heard that...)

First Danzan Ryu. The fall in question is the one starting at 22 seconds into this video. The rolling version then gets developed into a flat fall and then into a Sutemi, shown later in the same video.

The Judo version is shown here starting at 3:45 into the video.

I have my own thoughts on what I believe the differences are... or more importantly, what the different effects of the differences are. But, I would hardly call myself an expert here. I would like to hear your thoughts and opinions on the differences in these falls.

We practice break falls more like the judo videos. Rolls we try to take more with one shoulder, head down. We avoid letting the head hit the ground in a roll.

 

[drop bear]

I think it is the reason you are falling. The throw kind of determines the landing. So for example if we look at parkour rolls they tend to have to soak up a lot more hight and a lot more forward momentum.

Here we go. Lots of shock absorption.

Now say we look at a throw from a wrist lock. That is lots of rotation but not a lot of distance travelled. So a different fall.

 

[wab25]

I was trying to get at the differences between the two specific falling positions, both are used for the same type of throw.

If I am thrown o'goshi (hip throw) over tori's right hip...

If I were a Danzan Ryu guy, my left leg would bend at the knee and fold so that my shin is at 90 degrees compared with my spine and my right knee would be pointed up, the knee bent so as to use the ball of the right foot as a shock absorber when it hits the ground... my left thigh would be flat on the ground while my right knee is pointed straight up.

If I were a Judo guy, both of my legs would be nearly straight and slightly separated, both knees points to the side.

When I go to a Judo class, and take a fall from o'goshi, I get a lecture and lots of instruction to fix the position of my legs, as they are not in the Judo falling position. This is fine, as I am in a Judo mat.... its just hard to change a habit that you have trained.... But, I also get Judo guys walking past my mat, when I am teaching Danzan Ryu, and they will jump in to help correct my students falls to the Judo way and a few have caught me off the mat to explain how I am teaching it wrong. I have my own opinions on what the differences are.... I was just hoping for some break down on these two specific falling positions that are both correctly used from the same throw. I was hoping to be able to respond with something more than "well, this is how we do it."

 

[lklawson]

A lot of it is based on leg position at the end of the fall. Tucking the leg (I often refer to it as a "jujitsu" roll), gets you back up faster but also puts the ankle in jeopardy from the descending leg. If you're OK with that risk, then there are advantages.

As has been pointed out there are other variations, such as the parkour version. You should see some of the 18th and 19th century European tumbling methods.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[wab25]

A lot of it is based on leg position at the end of the fall.

Yes. I wanted to hear discussions about the leg positions. I know they are different. I wanted to know more about the why they are different... what advantages does each have and what risks to they have.

Tucking the leg (I often refer to it as a "jujitsu" roll), gets you back up faster

For a forward roll, I agree. But for a flat fall from o'goshi or similar throw how does tucking the leg help get you up any faster? If you are landing flat, from a high fall, where you are maximizing soft surface area.... there should be little to no forward momentum to help you roll up to your feet. In this case, I don't see an advantage to getting up faster here... Am I missing something? (which very well may be the case)

but also puts the ankle in jeopardy from the descending leg.

Can you give some more detail about how the ankle would be in more jeopardy here? I ask because I find the opposite to be true, when taking a fall on concrete or other hard surface. I have found and seen the left. lower leg, when straight, slam the ankle bone into the landing surface... quite painfully. Where when the leg is tucked, I find it easier to keep the ankle bone off the landing surface while still having thigh and calf contact.

Thanks again... I am trying to get into the details of these two specific falling positions. (probably more so than most people do)

 

[lklawson]

For a forward roll, I agree. But for a flat fall from o'goshi or similar throw how does tucking the leg help get you up any faster? If you are landing flat, from a high fall, where you are maximizing soft surface area.... there should be little to no forward momentum to help you roll up to your feet. In this case, I don't see an advantage to getting up faster here... Am I missing something? (which very well may be the case)

You can actually do a "forward roll fall" from ogoshi.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[wab25]

While I understand that there are many ways to fall, and that you can take different falls from the same throw... I was really trying to contrast and compare these two specific falls, so that I can understand these two a little better. I did not want to go exploring more ways to fall.

I did some more digging and found some examples of these falls being used from Hane Goshi.

First the Judo version:

Second the Danzan Ryu version:

Yes, the main difference is in the position of the legs. I was hoping to get some more insight into what advantages and disadvantages were to these two positions when falling.

I was also still hoping for more insight on how the Danzan Ryu version "puts the ankle in jeopardy from the descending leg."

 

[lklawson]

Yes, the main difference is in the position of the legs. I was hoping to get some more insight into what advantages and disadvantages were to these two positions when falling.

I was also still hoping for more insight on how the Danzan Ryu version "puts the ankle in jeopardy from the descending leg."

It's easy for the descending leg to heel-kick the ankle of the tucked leg. I've seen it happen. But tucking the leg is half-way to being on the knees with just a body twist and gets you back up faster. If you train to it, it's usually not a problem. But there's always a tiny bit more risk which is mitigated by the Judo method of extending the leg. But that makes it slower to get back up.

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[wab25]

It's easy for the descending leg to heel-kick the ankle of the tucked leg. I've seen it happen. But tucking the leg is half-way to being on the knees with just a body twist and gets you back up faster. If you train to it, it's usually not a problem. But there's always a tiny bit more risk which is mitigated by the Judo method of extending the leg. But that makes it slower to get back up.

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Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

Thanks for the explanation. (we don't have a thanks icon anymore...)

I have seen that happen, but rarely. And when I do see it happen, its a beginner just learning to fall. Once they learn to fall, its not a problem.

 

[lklawson]

Thanks for the explanation. (we don't have a thanks icon anymore...)

I have seen that happen, but rarely. And when I do see it happen, its a beginner just learning to fall. Once they learn to fall, its not a problem.

To quote myself, "Tucking the leg ... gets you back up faster but also puts the ankle in jeopardy from the descending leg. If you're OK with that risk, then there are advantages."

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Besides "tucking the legs", also try not to let the top leg to smash on the bottom leg. Try to use the top leg to slap on the ground instead. It can make the falling more comfortable.

I don't like to use my arm to slap on the ground.

I need my

- bottom arm to protect my head from hitting the ground.
- top arm to protect my head from my opponent's following on attack (knee drop, or elbow drop).