Brazilian Martial Arts

[Drose427]

Uh what? All of those guys you named have pretty extensive Bjj training. Bas Rutten even talked about using Bjj in street fights on Inside MMA once. Edgar has a Black Belt in Bjj. Cormier has a Brown belt in it.

To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler. Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Exactly, all of their challenge fights were had practically no rules except for biting and head butting usually or really dirty moves.

Actually, as I mentioned earlier, many of their early challenge fights did involve extensive rules negotiations. As the family got more experience in vale tudo fights, the rules got more sparse. Head butting, BTW, was generally allowed in fights which involved striking.

Look at Royce Gracie, possibly the best UFC fighter of all time, beat kickboxers, boxers, wrestlers and karate practitioners only using BJJ.

I've got a ton of respect for Royce's accomplishments, but he's nowhere close to the best UFC fighter of all time. The level of competition in Royce's day was nowhere near where it is now.

Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest

I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.

Yeah, that's a common misconception among certain segments of the BJJ community, but it's not really true. Both BJJ and wrestling require technique. (Speaking as an experienced BJJ practitioner, I am very aware that my wrestling technique sucks and I am currently working to rectify the situation.) Either one can potentially allow a skilled practitioner to defeat a stronger, but less skilled opponent. Both require top notch conditioning to be successful at the higher levels of competition. Look at the top BJJ competitors - they're all physical beasts. Once your opponent knows all the same technique that you do, physical attributes become important.

There are cultural differences in the BJJ and wrestling communities that underlie the stereotype, but I should probably save that discussion for another thread - this one is already getting somewhat off course.

Thats exactly why BJJ beats most martial arts, or has the potential to.

BJJ doesn't beat anything. An individual who knows BJJ might have the potential to beat a wide variety of opponents, depending on the circumstances and the individual's skill and attributes. I've been training BJJ pretty seriously for over 12 years now, and I'm quite aware that there are tons of people out there who have never trained BJJ and are completely capable of kicking my butt.

You might want to re-read Drose427's comment (#29) on the previous page. There's some good advice in the 4th paragraph.

To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler. Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him

Honestly, at this point you can assume any high level professional MMA fighter is at least somewhat familiar with the fundamentals of BJJ, wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai, even if their personal foundation is somewhere else.

 

[smiller2144]

Uh what? All of those guys you named have pretty extensive Bjj training. Bas Rutten even talked about using Bjj in street fights on Inside MMA once. Edgar has a Black Belt in Bjj. Cormier has a Brown belt in it.

Thank you, someone knows.

 

[smiller2144]

Actually, as I mentioned earlier, many of their early challenge fights did involve extensive rules negotiations. As the family got more experience in vale tudo fights, the rules got more sparse. Head butting, BTW, was generally allowed in fights which involved striking.



I've got a ton of respect for Royce's accomplishments, but he's nowhere close to the best UFC fighter of all time. The level of competition in Royce's day was nowhere near where it is now.





Yeah, that's a common misconception among certain segments of the BJJ community, but it's not really true. Both BJJ and wrestling require technique. (Speaking as an experienced BJJ practitioner, I am very aware that my wrestling technique sucks and I am currently working to rectify the situation.) Either one can potentially allow a skilled practitioner to defeat a stronger, but less skilled opponent. Both require top notch conditioning to be successful at the higher levels of competition. Look at the top BJJ competitors - they're all physical beasts. Once your opponent knows all the same technique that you do, physical attributes become important.

There are cultural differences in the BJJ and wrestling communities that underlie the stereotype, but I should probably save that discussion for another thread - this one is already getting somewhat off course.



BJJ doesn't beat anything. An individual who knows BJJ might have the potential to beat a wide variety of opponents, depending on the circumstances and the individual's skill and attributes. I've been training BJJ pretty seriously for over 12 years now, and I'm quite aware that there are tons of people out there who have never trained BJJ and are completely capable of kicking my butt.

You might want to re-read Drose427's comment (#29) on the previous page. There's some good advice in the 4th paragraph.



Honestly, at this point you can assume any high level professional MMA fighter is at least somewhat familiar with the fundamentals of BJJ, wrestling, boxing, and Muay Thai, even if their personal foundation is somewhere else.

Woah calm down, I did say that you can't hip escape a kick to the face when you go in for a takedown.

 

[Hanzou]

To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler. Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him

All of those guys have also had extensive training in Bjj concepts via their extensive MMA training. There isn't an MMA camp out there that doesn't incorporate Bjj concepts into their curriculum. To be an elite MMA fighter, you need Bjj.

 

[smiller2144]

To be honest, I did a quick google search and they were who showed up. The ones I know are couture, lesnar, Dan Henderson, Robbie Lawler. Cormier, I've never heard of him training in BJJ. I could be easily be wrong though on him

All of those guys have also had extensive training in Bjj concepts via their extensive MMA training. There isn't an MMA camp out there that doesn't incorporate Bjj concepts into their curriculum. To be an elite MMA fighter, you need Bjj.

Thats completely true, if an MMA gym does not teach BJJ then they're sending their fighters in completely unprepared.

 

[PhotonGuy]

I hear this constantly, and every time I hear it, I just have to laugh. There were no rules that overly favored the Gracies in UFC, just like there are no rules that overly favor bjj and grappling in MMA now.

In the UFC one of the rules was that grappling was allowed. That rule obviously favored the Gracies style over say, a kickboxing style. If they were fighting under rules where a referee would pull them apart whenever they got in a clinch that would favor a striker/kicker and the Gracies would lose if they fought under rules like that. Rorion himself refused to fight Benny Urquidez under such rules because as Rorion stated himself, he's not a kickboxer.

 

[kuniggety]

In the UFC one of the rules was that grappling was allowed. That rule obviously favored the Gracies style over say, a kickboxing style. If they were fighting under rules where a referee would pull them apart whenever they got in a clinch that would favor a striker/kicker and the Gracies would lose if they fought under rules like that. Rorion himself refused to fight Benny Urquidez under such rules because as Rorion stated himself, he's not a kickboxer.

That makes no sense. You're allowed to use grappling and so the rules favor a grappler? The striker can still work to keep the fight up and strike. Having a referee pull people apart would be straight up saying that the striker is allowed to use his martial arts style but the grappler isn't.

 

[drop bear]

Thats completely true, if an MMA gym does not teach BJJ then they're sending their fighters in completely unprepared.

There is bjj and submission wrestling that gets called bjj. And subtle differences between the two.

So you could mma without bjj.

 

[smiller2144]

There is bjj and submission wrestling that gets called bjj. And subtle differences between the two.

So you could mma without bjj.

But you'd have to be an idiot to go into MMA with no BJJ, seriously.

 

[Tez3]

Thats completely true, if an MMA gym does not teach BJJ then they're sending their fighters in completely unprepared.

Well not necessarily, there's plenty of Judo and catch wrestling guys that can take on and beat the BJJ people, it depends a lot on the experience and capabilities of the fighter. If they just did stand up then yes they would be unprepared but grappling experience doesn't have to include BJJ, it's good if it does of course but it won't leave any fighter unprepared if they don't have BJJ. It still very much depends on the fighter, it always will, videos don't always tell the 'truth'.

 

[smiller2144]

Well not necessarily, there's plenty of Judo and catch wrestling guys that can take on and beat the BJJ people, it depends a lot on the experience and capabilities of the fighter. If they just did stand up then yes they would be unprepared but grappling experience doesn't have to include BJJ, it's good if it does of course but it won't leave any fighter unprepared if they don't have BJJ. It still very much depends on the fighter, it always will, videos don't always tell the 'truth'.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you cant hip escape a well placed kick to the jaw when going for a takedown. But I'd stick to BJJ if my life depended on it.

 

[Tez3]

I've said it before and I'll say it again, you cant hip escape a well placed kick to the jaw when going for a takedown. But I'd stick to BJJ if my life depended on it.[/QUOTE

What do you mean by a 'hip escape'? If you are going for a takedown with enough room between you and your opponent for them to kick you, you really aren't doing it properly.

 

[smiller2144]

Youve obviouy completely missed the point.
I know if you do it properly you wont get hit, but you can if you don't. I'm simply saying that if a person is skilled enough to kick you in the head fast enough, then theres probebly no chance of escaping it.

 

[Tez3]

Youve obviouy completely missed the point.
I know if you do it properly you wont get hit, but you can if you don't. I'm simply saying that if a person is skilled enough to kick you in the head fast enough, then theres probebly no chance of escaping it.

No I didn't 'obviously miss the point' I asked you a question you didn't answer.

 

[smiller2144]

No I didn't 'obviously miss the point' I asked you a question you didn't answer.

It was a joke.
Can you side control a punch? No.
I was joking.

 

[Tez3]

It was a joke.
Can you side control a punch? No.
I was joking.

Unless people understand what you are saying then it doesn't work either as a joke or a statement does it? 'Hip escape' for example what does that mean?
On the ground it's quite likely you could control a punch with side control, you can certainly pre-empt it so that fails too.

 

[Hanzou]

There is bjj and submission wrestling that gets called bjj. And subtle differences between the two.

So you could mma without bjj.

If you think submission grapplers aren't cross-training with Bjj guys and vice versa, you're crazy. Hell, I'm learning submission grappling in my Bjj school, and we're not even a competition-heavy school. Grappling is evolving at such a ridiculous rate that everyone is dipping into each others pools. So much so that when you're outside of competition rules, you really can't tell the grappling styles apart.

 

[Hanzou]

In the UFC one of the rules was that grappling was allowed. That rule obviously favored the Gracies style over say, a kickboxing style. If they were fighting under rules where a referee would pull them apart whenever they got in a clinch that would favor a striker/kicker and the Gracies would lose if they fought under rules like that. Rorion himself refused to fight Benny Urquidez under such rules because as Rorion stated himself, he's not a kickboxer.

So basically the minimal rules of UFC favored grappling over striking? Isn't that kind of the point? If I'm street fighting someone, and I clinch them, there's no referee that's going to pull us apart.

And yeah, why would the Gracies agree to a fight with rules that pretty much ban their style? If anything that looks bad on Urquidez, not the Gracies. It essentially shows that Urquidez didn't believe his kickboxing skills were enough to stop a grappler from taking him down.

 

[smiller2144]

Unless people understand what you are saying then it doesn't work either as a joke or a statement does it? 'Hip escape' for example what does that mean?
On the ground it's quite likely you could control a punch with side control, you can certainly pre-empt it so that fails too.

I understand you can but I meant in a nonsensical way.
Seriously don't even worry, anyway I love side control lol