Brazilian Martial Arts

[smiller2144]

Hes hardly the best of all time. His record was 20 and 3. Anderson Silva's is 40 and 6. Was he influential in making mat work far more popular and well known, thus bringing it to the attention of strikers in and out of the UFC? Yes. Was he the best UFC fighter? Far from it.

He also fought during a time where BJJ wasn't nearly as well known or popular. Now, wrestlers and strikers aren't getting submitted as easily as they did back then because they're familiar with BJJ, even if they've had no formal training in BJJ.

If royce fought today, theres no doubt he would be considered one of the best Grapplers in the UFC. But he would submit people nearly as easily as he did back then.

And he would take a beating, he'd have to learn standup. And there's no doubt it'd be harder to submit opponents. I'm just saying that raw BJJ can take down any martial artist, if they don't know BJJ. But if the person knew BJJ they'd stand a chance and make it a lot harder for a BJJ guy to submit them. Hence why most UFC and MMA fighters train in BJJ.

 

[Drose427]

And he would take a beating, he'd have to learn standup. And there's no doubt it'd be harder to submit opponents. I'm just saying that raw BJJ can take down any martial artist, if they don't know BJJ. But if the person knew BJJ they'd stand a chance and make it a lot harder for a BJJ guy to submit them. Hence why most UFC and MMA fighters train in BJJ.

Thats still not entirely true. Many MMA fighters only train in Wrestling, and can still fight off BJJ guys (Frankie Edgar, Bas Rutten, Daniel Cormier etc.) You dont need to know BJJ to know how to stop BJJ.

 

[smiller2144]

Thats still not entirely true. Many MMA fighters only train in Wrestling, and can still fight off BJJ guys (Frankie Edgar, Bas Rutten, Daniel Cormier etc.) You dont need to know BJJ to know how to stop BJJ.

True but you can usually only stop it through bashing the guy off you or shear strength. Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest and when you muscle BJJ moves it can be dangerous for the other guy (Americana, Kimura). But I take your point.

 

[Drose427]

True but you can usually only stop it through bashing the guy off you or shear strength. Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest and when you muscle BJJ moves it can be dangerous for the other guy (Americana, Kimura). But I take your point.

If you think you "Muscle Through Everything" in wrestling, then you've clearly never wrestled. I can break someones arm with pretty easily with a crucifix if I muscle, or a collarbone with the claw if I muscle. Wrestling is just as much Technique as BJJ and causes many of the same injuries.

 

[smiller2144]

If you think you "Muscle Through Everything" in wrestling, then you've clearly never wrestled. I can break someones arm with pretty easily with a crucifix if I muscle, or a collarbone with the claw if I muscle. Wrestling is just as much Technique as BJJ and causes many of the same injuries.

True but I mean the whole philosophy behind BJJ is that leverage and technique beats brute force, which it does. Give me a wrestler who knows how to get out of a triangle choke without using brute force.
I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.

 

[Drose427]

True but I mean the whole philosophy behind BJJ is that leverage and technique beats brute force, which it does. Give me a wrestler who knows how to get out of a triangle choke without using brute force.
I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.

no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.

That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.

 

[smiller2144]

no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.

That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.

Thats exactly why BJJ beats most martial arts, or has the potential to.

 

[smiller2144]

no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.

That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.

With that said though, say a BJJ guy goes to take a kickboxer down and the kickboxer quickly kicks the bloke straight in the head, then you can't really hip escape a broken jaw.

 

[Drose427]

Thats exactly why BJJ beats most martial arts, or has the potential to.

Not entirely. Your average Wrestler or MA may not know how to escape a triangle choke, but we do know what they look like. We know not to go to the ground against BJJ, and how to defend Takedowns. BJJ is no greater than any Striking style, its only on the ground instead of standing. Its also no better than other Grappling styles, such as JJJ or Hapkido, which all use many of the same techniques.

Many of the same ideas in BJJ such as body mechanics, how to control joints, etc. Are found in the Striking styles as well. BJJ has nothing on any other style, the fighter simply may be better.

BJJ is simply another grappling style. BJJ doesnt get the take down, BJJ doesnt get puched or elbowed, BJJ doesnt have to fight for control. BJJ guys get knocked out by TMA or boxing guys in the UFC all the time.

I say this because it's a dangerous thing, and you seem fairly new to Martial Arts. Over valuing your training, what it is, what it can do, and attributing personal ability to an art is a very dangerous thing. You dont want to be that guy who things his style is best, then gets knocked out by a street brawler because you couldn't sink a technique, maybe you weren't used to someone 2-3 times your size screaming at you and pushing you, 100 other reasons that your school or instructor may not cover.

Remember, BJJ came from Japanese JJ and I believe Judo. Not a whole lot changed, with BJJ putting more emphasis on ground fighting. But contrary to the Gracie handbook, many fights never go to the ground. Many BJJ schools dont teach a lot of Stand up other than take downs, so what are they supposed to do when they cant take a guy down and theyre getting hammered on?

Asa martial artist, you have to understand the ins and out, and the flaws of your style. BJJ is no exception.

 

[smiller2144]

Not entirely. Your average Wrestler or MA may not know how to escape a triangle choke, but we do know what they look like. We know not to go to the ground against BJJ, and how to defend Takedowns. BJJ is no greater than any Striking style, its only on the ground instead of standing. Its also no better than other Grappling styles, such as JJJ or Hapkido, which all use many of the same techniques.

Many of the same ideas in BJJ such as body mechanics, how to control joints, etc. Are found in the Striking styles as well. BJJ has nothing on any other style, the fighter simply may be better.

BJJ is simply another grappling style. BJJ doesnt get the take down, BJJ doesnt get puched or elbowed, BJJ doesnt have to fight for control. BJJ guys get knocked out by TMA or boxing guys in the UFC all the time.

I say this because it's a dangerous thing, and you seem fairly new to Martial Arts. Over valuing your training, what it is, what it can do, and attributing personal ability to an art is a very dangerous thing. You dont want to be that guy who things his style is best, then gets knocked out by a street brawler because you couldn't sink a technique, maybe you weren't used to someone 2-3 times your size screaming at you and pushing you, 100 other reasons that your school or instructor may not cover.

Remember, BJJ came from Japanese JJ and I believe Judo. Not a whole lot changed, with BJJ putting more emphasis on ground fighting. But contrary to the Gracie handbook, many fights never go to the ground. Many BJJ schools dont teach a lot of Stand up other than take downs, so what are they supposed to do when they cant take a guy down and theyre getting hammered on?

Asa martial artist, you have to understand the ins and out, and the flaws of your style. BJJ is no exception.

Hence why I train Muay Thai aswell

 

[drop bear]

And he would take a beating, he'd have to learn standup. And there's no doubt it'd be harder to submit opponents. I'm just saying that raw BJJ can take down any martial artist, if they don't know BJJ. But if the person knew BJJ they'd stand a chance and make it a lot harder for a BJJ guy to submit them. Hence why most UFC and MMA fighters train in BJJ.

We are kind of training anti bjj these days. So just denying submission opportunities by maintaining position and relying on higher percentage hitting.

 

[drop bear]

no, it doesnt. Muscling is simply one style of wrestling. If you watch lighter weight wrestlers, the emphasis is on speed and technique. Many wrestlers dont even lock up, the go for a shot or ankle.

That example is bogus. You cant ask someone to escape a tech they've never heard of. Thats like asking a boxer the proper way to block a Crescent Kick. Unless they have experience with it, they simply wont know.

boxing cover blocks crescent kicks.

 

[jks9199]

Maybe we can steer back towards the more general discussion of more or less "native" Brazillian arts?

 

[Drose427]

boxing cover blocks crescent kicks.

A proper crescent kick takes that guard right down and still connects.

 

[drop bear]

True but I mean the whole philosophy behind BJJ is that leverage and technique beats brute force, which it does. Give me a wrestler who knows how to get out of a triangle choke without using brute force.
I understand wrestling needs technique but requires strength to do so.

a submission wrestler taught me this triangle escape.

when you feel one arm either going in or out instead of fighting that arm take your free arm and follow it.

Triangle defended.

 

[drop bear]

True but you can usually only stop it through bashing the guy off you or shear strength. Wrestling you muscle everything, BJJ you don't have to put much effort into anything to be honest and when you muscle BJJ moves it can be dangerous for the other guy (Americana, Kimura). But I take your point.

You do if they know what they are doing. Lets not look so much at submissions but at escapes. If i chose to hold you in side control and just lay and pray. You have to work to get me off. I don't care how good your bjj is. It is just structurally easier for me to hold you down.

If you look at royce vs that capo guy in the video. The capo guy had mad scramble and royce was definitely tasked with applying strength to keep up.

 

[drop bear]

A proper crescent kick takes that guard right down and still connects.

You are removing a hand that is glued to their head in possibly the strongest structural position they can make from there with your outstretched foot?

Andy hug might do that with an an axe kick. But it is a big ask for a normal Joe to achieve with a crescent kick

 

[drop bear]

Maybe we can steer back towards the more general discussion of more or less "native" Brazillian arts?

samba roda.

 

[Drose427]

If you're doing a proper crescent kick, you're extending it. The ball of the foot would come past the shoulder and the heel on the back of their wrist. If you extend properly,that hand is going to slide right off their face, and the guard down. Your forearm is being hooked down. The joint of the elbow, forearm, and shoulder arent strong enough to fight the strength of the leg. The arm wants to bend at the elbow. It physics. A proper crescent kick shouldn't just be the toes, the whole legs extended out. All it takes is extension to unfold the guard.

 

[Hanzou]

Thats still not entirely true. Many MMA fighters only train in Wrestling, and can still fight off BJJ guys (Frankie Edgar, Bas Rutten, Daniel Cormier etc.) You dont need to know BJJ to know how to stop BJJ.

Uh what? All of those guys you named have pretty extensive Bjj training. Bas Rutten even talked about using Bjj in street fights on Inside MMA once. Edgar has a Black Belt in Bjj. Cormier has a Brown belt in it.