Blood, Sweat and Tears.....Or The Easy Way?

[MJS]

The purpose of this thread really isn't meant to be another 'train by dvd' thread, though it may scratch the surface of that. Instead, this thread is designed (hopefull) to talk about people who put in the hard work, busting their *** in training, vs. those that tend to take the easy route.

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, I like to work for what I have. Yeah, its nice to have someone give you a 'gift' but IMO, if you go thru life, always having things given to you, without any work, how does anyone get to know the meaning of work?

If someone would rather take the easy way of doing things, and learn without a teacher, thats fine....as long as that person is cool with the fact that they're only going to be as good as that book, and they're not going to have anyone push them. Sorry, but there are only so many 'secrets' that you're going to be able to put in a book and dvd. Theres not going to be anyone to correct your footwork, body position, proper hand and foot position when striking, proper location of the strikes....all things that're going to make or break whatever it is that you're doing.

After 26yrs of Kenpo, my current teacher, the last time I worked with him, was making slight changes in things I was doing, showing me ways to make what I was doing better, etc. Now, these were either things that I sadly, was never shown by past Kenpo instructors, things that I just neglected, etc, but whatever the reason, its amazing how much better the change made me.

Due to my Kenpo inst. living in another state, I don't have daily access to him, though I do call him regularly, I needed to find something else to do, training wise. Mid August of this year, I joined a Kyokushin dojo thats not far from my house. Man, after 26yrs in the typical commercial dojos, this was a whole new undertaking, in a very good way of course. The workouts are unlike any that I've had in any other schools (sad but true, I know) and you work your *** off from start to finish. Nobody leaves that class with a dry gi, and I mean nobody! You're pushed in that class from start to finish, and IMO, thats the way it should be! Just when you think you're punching hard, he tells you to punch harder, kick higher, stretch further, etc. He doesn't hand out belt ranks, you earn them, when he feels you're ready. In a nutshell, you don't ask when you're going to be tested.

Of course, if someone wants the easy route, thats fine. If you'd rather not put in the blood, sweat and tears, thats fine...again, as long as you understand, you're not reaping any other benefits, and your training will only be as good as whats in that book.

People often complain about a hardship, ie: not having the school/art they want to train in, nearby, they don't have the time, they can't get there because of this or that. As I've said before, and I'll say again....it all comes down to how determined the person is, to get that training. I'm fortunate to have access to the majority of people that I train with or would consider training with, nearby. I could literally walk to my Arnis insts. house as well as the Kyokushin dojo. I pay for my Kenpo inst. to come to CT and train me for a day. I'll eventually be making the trip to NJ to see him. Its not a cheap venture by any means, but its something that I do because of what he has to offer. And I'm not the only person in the world who does that. Another friend of mine is a brown belt in BJJ under Roy Harris. He's on the go constantly, traveling to seminars where Roy will be, going to Ca. to train with him, etc. Again, another costly venture, and if someone honestly can't afford to do that, thats fine. But that doesnt mean you need to take an easy route. There are always options, again, its a matter of someone putting in the dedication to make it happen.

Whats sad with alot of training today, is the fact that some schools tend to cater to the groups that want the easy way. Give me my belt every 3 mos. or I'll leave. So out of fear of losing cash, they comply, thus turning into a mcdojo. Give away fries and a coke with that belt while you're at it....LOL! If training is too hard, too much contact, instead of sucking it up and putting in the blood, sweat and tears, they quit and go somewhere where its easy, where there is no hard contact or any contact at all.

In the end, it all comes down to the person. Some will walk thru the fire and others will stand back and complain.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

It's simple for me. I can look in a book or watch a video, and it can show me how to throw an upper body block (for example). If I am really careful, I might get my stance correct, my feet correct, and even get the block into the basic correct position. And I'm being generous with those assumptions.

And then I go into the dojo and I show my upper body block to my sensei and he says, "OK, let's try it," and he starts throwing punches and I throw the block. And as he ups the power, I find myself grunting and my arm bending; and very quickly, my block is failing and the punch is getting through.

Then he adjusts my block in some very minor and subtle ways and we run it again. Suddenly, my block is solid, my arms do not tremble with the effort; the power I am receiving isn't being absorbed by my muscles, but running down my rooted frame, into the floor; I'm feeling my heels dig into the padded floor as I take the strikes, but my arm doesn't move, the block is effective.

Where do I get that in a book or a video? Even if I worked with a partner, I'd have to rely on practice and experimentation and hoping I'd accidentally stumble on the 'right' way to block and take the power and re-route it with efficiency.

The other night in the dojo, we saw a very simple and effective take-down done at ankle-level. Yeah, ankle-level. Imagine you find yourself (and let's hope not) at the feet of an attacker. You reach out, touch his ankle, and instantly toss him on his butt with zero effort; and I mean zero. It's like his leg is on fire; he topples over backwards at your slightest touch.

Sensei showed us this; and at first it looked like it could not work. He demonstrated; we got down on the floor and tried it with standing partners. I was uke for my partner and I could not even feel his hand on my ankle. Nothing was happening. He was doing (apparently) exactly what sensei had just showed us. Nothing. Then sensei came over, adjusted my partner's hand ever so slightly. He touched my ankle again, and I gasped in pain and fell over, I could not stop myself from going over; it was not just intense pain, but also I suddenly had zero balance. I tried it on my partner, and again, after having my hand adjusted by maybe a couple millimeters (which didn't seem like it would make ANY difference), I touched his ankle and he turned white as a sheet, gasped, and fell over. I used no muscle, no pressure, it was like the lightest touch possible; in the right place on his ankle.

Now how do you put that in a book? How do you show that in a video?

But hey, whatever. I like the hands-on teaching method. It hurts, but when I get it, I get it.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In Martial Arts there are no short cuts and there is no easy way

 

[Cyriacus]

Personally, Ive never given Tears to Martial Arts.
Lots of Sweat and Plenty of Blood though!


On Topic;

The purpose of this thread really isn't meant to be another 'train by dvd' thread, though it may scratch the surface of that. Instead, this thread is designed (hopefull) to talk about people who put in the hard work, busting their *** in training, vs. those that tend to take the easy route.

I don't know about anyone else, but for me, I like to work for what I have. Yeah, its nice to have someone give you a 'gift' but IMO, if you go thru life, always having things given to you, without any work, how does anyone get to know the meaning of work?

Working for what You have is like Pushups. It takes time to do more, but some People can do Thousands.

If someone would rather take the easy way of doing things, and learn without a teacher, thats fine....as long as that person is cool with the fact that they're only going to be as good as that book, and they're not going to have anyone push them. Sorry, but there are only so many 'secrets' that you're going to be able to put in a book and dvd. Theres not going to be anyone to correct your footwork, body position, proper hand and foot position when striking, proper location of the strikes....all things that're going to make or break whatever it is that you're doing.

By Secrets, Im sure You mean Unbiased Perspectives aimed only at BETTER, and ALWAYS being BETTER. To which I agree.

After 26yrs of Kenpo, my current teacher, the last time I worked with him, was making slight changes in things I was doing, showing me ways to make what I was doing better, etc. Now, these were either things that I sadly, was never shown by past Kenpo instructors, things that I just neglected, etc, but whatever the reason, its amazing how much better the change made me.

Due to my Kenpo inst. living in another state, I don't have daily access to him, though I do call him regularly, I needed to find something else to do, training wise. Mid August of this year, I joined a Kyokushin dojo thats not far from my house. Man, after 26yrs in the typical commercial dojos, this was a whole new undertaking, in a very good way of course. The workouts are unlike any that I've had in any other schools (sad but true, I know) and you work your *** off from start to finish.

Nobody leaves that class with a dry gi,

Same here.

and I mean nobody! You're pushed in that class from start to finish, and IMO, thats the way it should be!

Just when you think you're punching hard, he tells you to punch harder, kick higher, stretch further, etc. He doesn't hand out belt ranks, you earn them, when he feels you're ready.

Same here Really, I think Ive heard the Word "Power" more than any other Word.

In a nutshell, you don't ask when you're going to be tested.

Of course, if someone wants the easy route, thats fine. If you'd rather not put in the blood, sweat and tears, thats fine...again, as long as you understand, you're not reaping any other benefits, and your training will only be as good as whats in that book.

Yep.

People often complain about a hardship, ie: not having the school/art they want to train in, nearby, they don't have the time, they can't get there because of this or that. As I've said before, and I'll say again....it all comes down to how determined the person is, to get that training. I'm fortunate to have access to the majority of people that I train with or would consider training with, nearby. I could literally walk to my Arnis insts. house as well as the Kyokushin dojo. I pay for my Kenpo inst. to come to CT and train me for a day. I'll eventually be making the trip to NJ to see him. Its not a cheap venture by any means, but its something that I do because of what he has to offer. And I'm not the only person in the world who does that. Another friend of mine is a brown belt in BJJ under Roy Harris. He's on the go constantly, traveling to seminars where Roy will be, going to Ca. to train with him, etc. Again, another costly venture, and if someone honestly can't afford to do that, thats fine. But that doesnt mean you need to take an easy route. There are always options, again, its a matter of someone putting in the dedication to make it happen.

The way I see it, if You dont have Training Options available, just get Fit.

Whats sad with alot of training today, is the fact that some schools tend to cater to the groups that want the easy way. Give me my belt every 3 mos. or I'll leave. So out of fear of losing cash, they comply, thus turning into a mcdojo. Give away fries and a coke with that belt while you're at it....LOL! If training is too hard, too much contact, instead of sucking it up and putting in the blood, sweat and tears, they quit and go somewhere where its easy, where there is no hard contact or any contact at all.

I completely Agree.

In the end, it all comes down to the person. Some will walk thru the fire and others will stand back and complain.

Sadly.

Just My Input.

 

[Steve]

If you think about it, training with an instructor is actually doing it the easy way, considering how difficult it is to learn from a book or DVD.

But seriously, while I agree with the general sentiment here, it smacks of a thread in which a bunch of people get together to congratulate each other on how awesome we all are, and how much more serious we are then other people. Of course, hard work can lead to good character. Of course training with a qualified instructor in a strict school with competent training partners is a good thing.

So, what's the question? What are we discussing?

 

[MJS]

Personally, Ive never given Tears to Martial Arts.
Lots of Sweat and Plenty of Blood though!


On Topic;



Just My Input.

Regarding the 'secret' comment...yeah, you hit the nail on the head. That was probably a poor choice of wording on my part. Not 'secret' techniques or teachings, but basically, anything in the art.

 

[MJS]

If you think about it, training with an instructor is actually doing it the easy way, considering how difficult it is to learn from a book or DVD.

LOL!

But seriously, while I agree with the general sentiment here, it smacks of a thread in which a bunch of people get together to congratulate each other on how awesome we all are, and how much more serious we are then other people. Of course, hard work can lead to good character. Of course training with a qualified instructor in a strict school with competent training partners is a good thing.

So, what's the question? What are we discussing?

The purpose was to discuss why people would rather take an easier route than one that requires more hard work. Of course, my intent wasn't to bash people, but OTOH, how many "Can you learn from dvd" threads, does that very thing happen? That was all I was looking to talk about. I mean, lets look at the study for an example. How many threads go to hell, because person A feels strongly about one thing and person B thinks the opposite, neither side is going to budge, with both people making the other feel inferior because of their said beliefs.

But FWIW Steve.....as I said, to each his own, in the end, it all comes down to the person. I'm proud of the hardwork and dedication that I've put in, and continue to put in, and I'd like to think that others, going by current and past posts, feel the same. If someone (and I dont mean you) gets offended at an honest comment, well....I dont know what else to say.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

But seriously, while I agree with the general sentiment here, it smacks of a thread in which a bunch of people get together to congratulate each other on how awesome we all are, and how much more serious we are then other people.

I don't consider myself 'awesome'. Well, let me correct that. I am awesome of course, but I am not an awesome martial artist; and I have no idea how 'serious' I am compared to other people.

However, it seems that mastery of many subjects comes as a direct result of extended practice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outliers_(book)

Outliers: The Story of Success is a non-fiction book written by Malcolm Gladwell and published by Little, Brown and Company on November 18, 2008. In Outliers, Gladwell examines the factors that contribute to high levels of success. To support his thesis, he examines the causes of why the majority of Canadian ice hockey players are born in the first few months of the calendar year, how Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates achieved his extreme wealth, and how two people with exceptional intelligence, Christopher Langan and J. Robert Oppenheimer, end up with such vastly different fortunes. Throughout the publication, Gladwell repeatedly mentions the "10,000-Hour Rule", claiming that the key to success in any field is, to a large extent, a matter of practicing a specific task for a total of around 10,000 hours.

Leaving aside the issue of savants and the extremely gifted, who seem to perform at a master level without expending huge investments in time and effort, it seems that practice is the one common factor to success or mastery of many things, from auto racing to playing musical instruments to perhaps martial arts.

I would argue two things here against book or video-based learning that applies to this.

First, I would argue that those who do not attend live training do not practice as much as they should. They may say they will, or they may claim they do. Some few might; it's possible. But for the most part, they will train about as much as all the people who bought P-90-X videos. A lot at first, then a little, then none at all.

Second, I would argue that incorrect practice is as bad or worse than no practice at all. In the examples I gave, practicing a bad block leads to perfectly executed bad blocks. Once corrected, practicing a good block (and it drifts, so correction is constantly required until a level of mastery is reached) begets good blocks done without apparent effort.

It's not that we're all that amazing. It's that we are in the dojo several times a week, pushing ourselves towards that 10,000 hours. Does it matter? It matters if you value what you're doing. If you think it's all crap and can be learned in 20 minutes by watching a video, then go forth and conquer (I realize you're not such a person, just sayin').

 

[Steve]

. I understand where you guys are coming from.

Okay. Just to play devils advocate, we are as a species all about finding shortcuts and doing things the easy way. Some other words for this are progress, process improvement, technological adaptation, or modernization. It is in our nature to do this.

What it sounds like you guys are really Talking about is sweat equity and competent instruction. This may have been more relevant in the DVD training thread, but there's something used in adult learning called bloom's taxonomy. It's a shortcut for identifying the development of expertise.

The first four stages of learning are knowledge, comprehension, application and synthesis.

Knowledge is equal to knowing about something. I have knowledge level understanding of many different styles of martial arts. I can define some terms, and have a general, cursory understanding.

Comprehension is knowing something well enough to explain it. Keyboard warriors are a good example of this. DVDs can get you here. So can Wikipedia.

Application level is doing something independently, but under controlled conditions. The difference between application and comprehension is feedback. You don't get feedback from a DVD, so it's difficult to progress. Frustration and stagnation are why people tend to quit. Not laziness.

There are other categories, but at a simple level, I like this as a way of understaning skill development. It's also a good way to think about lesson design.

The point is, this is all predictable, reliable and has nothing to do with character or drive. I


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[shesulsa]

I feel very embarrassed to admit that many of these "excuses" are annoying realities for me. I've not been able to get hired anywhere, our expenses go up and up and up, my husband keeps getting laid off of work and I can barely afford the gas it takes to get to my own school to teach. I'm not turning profit AT ALL and I simply do not have the gas to drive 30 miles for a lesson. I can't even pay people I owe right now. This is incredibly embarrassing for me.

My health continues to challenge me - but I am *determined* to do whatever I can to keep going and to rectify (hopefully) my physical problems.

If *wanting* to get to the dojang to train were enough or pay my bills or put gas in my car, it would all be done. I don't have much of value to sell (believe me, I've looked). So judge if ya wanna - but know that when the problems are many, they still have to be solved. My metatarsals are virtually crumbling. My iron-deficient anemia persists. The fatigue is sometimes insurmountable. Applied for over 100 jobs, yet to be hired. Special events not registered for. Clients reducing their hours so they pay less so they can keep training, others quitting because they can't afford me. I'm almost the cheapest in the county.

If I think about it too much I get angry. And yes, I want to work for what I get.

*chipping away in SW Washington*

 

[kbarrett]

I agree, there really are no short cuts in martial arts training, you have to train hard everytime your at the dojang (dojo), pushing each other right to the edge.

Ken

 

[mook jong man]

I feel very embarrassed to admit that many of these "excuses" are annoying realities for me. I've not been able to get hired anywhere, our expenses go up and up and up, my husband keeps getting laid off of work and I can barely afford the gas it takes to get to my own school to teach. I'm not turning profit AT ALL and I simply do not have the gas to drive 30 miles for a lesson. I can't even pay people I owe right now. This is incredibly embarrassing for me.

My health continues to challenge me - but I am *determined* to do whatever I can to keep going and to rectify (hopefully) my physical problems.

If *wanting* to get to the dojang to train were enough or pay my bills or put gas in my car, it would all be done. I don't have much of value to sell (believe me, I've looked). So judge if ya wanna - but know that when the problems are many, they still have to be solved. My metatarsals are virtually crumbling. My iron-deficient anemia persists. The fatigue is sometimes insurmountable. Applied for over 100 jobs, yet to be hired. Special events not registered for. Clients reducing their hours so they pay less so they can keep training, others quitting because they can't afford me. I'm almost the cheapest in the county.

If I think about it too much I get angry. And yes, I want to work for what I get.

*chipping away in SW Washington*

You'll be right darl , keep on punching , things will get better.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

There is no discipline but self-discipline. Life is a furnace, strife is the heat, we're the steel and discipline is the temper. Poorly tempered steel is useless except as a paperweight. A poorly disciplined human is useless except as a meat shield.
Maybe a person can be reformed but it gets harder as a person gets older, unless some life-changing event forces a paradigm shift but there's no guarantee that the paradigm shift will be constructive.

If you have no discipline you're more likely to take the path of least resistance. In martial arts, the path of least resistance includes movies, self-inflation and frustration with non-immediate results. Considering the likelyhood of you actually having to use it for its intended purpose and the amount of gullible or uninformed people, it's not hard to puff-up an image of yourself for others to believe, especially if you pick your fools well. Hell, they might make you king. For some, being king of the fools is the best they feel they can hope for.

In this day of watered down standards, pervasive hollywood impressions and sheltered lifestyles, integrity ought to stand out like a sore thumb except that by its very nature it's the foremost thing imitated.

What I'm getting at is that people of integrity, while not always taking the more difficult path, realize the value of strife and discipline.

 

[Ironcrane]

In this context, I don't really think there is such as thing as an easy way, as a poster above me already mentioned. The very nature of developing a skill demands that time, and effort be put in. Less time, and effort = less skill. More time, and effort = more skill. And although books, and dvd's can't replace personal instruction, I think they still have their place. I've learned a few things from them, and pulled those things off successfully in practice. Sometimes it required fine tuning, but with an understanding of the basic idea, myself, and my partner were always able to figure it out.

 

[Buka]

Damn, it's a battle. And I could use a couple pounds of that easy way. Where do I sign up for that puppy?
Hardest thing about studying the arts is getting to the dojo. Day after day, after fricken year, forever. Thank God we enjoy it.

 

[Chris Parker]

. I understand where you guys are coming from.

Okay. Just to play devils advocate, we are as a species all about finding shortcuts and doing things the easy way. Some other words for this are progress, process improvement, technological adaptation, or modernization. It is in our nature to do this.

Uh, slightly off topic, but actually Steve, no, we're not.

I was watching a documentary last night on exactly what the difference is between us and our closest relatives, chimpanzees, looking at how the 2% difference in the DNA manifests itself, and amongst the primary differences is in the brain structure and size (which was in turn related to things like the musculature of the jaw, and so on), so there was an exploration of the results of that difference.

The tests included socialisation questions, such as co-operation problems, and so on, but one of the tests was rather interesting. It involved a black walled box with an opening at the top, a bar across that opening, and another opening at the front. The subjects (both chimpanzees and children) were shown a sequence of actions, tapping the bar, using a rod to push it through out of the way of the top opening, then the rod was pushed into the opening a few times. Finally, the rod was pushed into the front opening, where it picked up a treat. Both the children and chimps managed to follow this sequence quite well, successfully getting the treat each time.

Then it got interesting.

The box was replaced with an identical one, with one exception: the box was see-through. The inner workings of it were exactly the same... and it was revealed that the top half of the box was separated by a floor, meaning that any actions before putting the rod in the front door for the treat meant nothing. Then, the new, clear box was put in front of the subjects again. The chimps managed to figure out pretty quickly that nothing up top meant anything, and just went straight for the treat... but the kids, on the other hand, continued to do all the useless actions they were shown earlier.

It was found that human beings learn by copying, rather than deducing and looking for short cuts, whereas the chimps were more driven by the result, and were therefore more likely to go for a short cut.

Interesting, really.

 

[oftheherd1]

Uh, slightly off topic, but actually Steve, no, we're not.

I was watching a documentary last night on exactly what the difference is between us and our closest relatives, chimpanzees, looking at how the 2% difference in the DNA manifests itself, and amongst the primary differences is in the brain structure and size (which was in turn related to things like the musculature of the jaw, and so on), so there was an exploration of the results of that difference.

...

Back to the thread, I am in the camp that dojo time under a competant instructor trumps books and DVDs any time. The reasons have been explained already above.

Just curious how the brain size and jaw muscles were related? Last I knew, jaw size and dentition in humans were related to diet. When humans began using fire, strong jaw muscles and larger stronger teeth were no longer needed as food got softer when it was cooked.

 

[punisher73]

In Martial Arts there are no short cuts and there is no easy way

Good reason why many chinese martial arts refer to themselves as "kung fu" or hardwork/skill.

When talking about what karate means, I always talk about the root of "empty hand" from "chinese hand" and then the meaning and point out that it is hardwork.

I think many as a whole in this society look for the easy way in whatever they do. Look at how much money people spend on exercise pills that will "just melt the fat away" without doing anything.

 

[MJS]

. I understand where you guys are coming from.

Okay. Just to play devils advocate, we are as a species all about finding shortcuts and doing things the easy way. Some other words for this are progress, process improvement, technological adaptation, or modernization. It is in our nature to do this.

Hmm...I don't think that I'd lump everyone into that group though. Sure, I think its safe to say that there are people who always look for shortcuts, some that look sometime, and some that never look. I suppose another way to look at this would be....does the shortcut always provide the best results? What about the hard work? IMO, I'd say it'd depend on the task at hand. Someone could eat right, workout daily and get a better body. That requires alot of hard work and dedication. You need to make sure you buy the right foods, measure things, count the cals., and get your butt to the gym.

The next guy could inject himself with steroids and get results alot faster. For the sake of this discussion, the guy who busts his *** would be equal to someone who gets their *** in the dojo. The steriod user is on the same level as the person who takes the easy route.

What it sounds like you guys are really Talking about is sweat equity and competent instruction. This may have been more relevant in the DVD training thread, but there's something used in adult learning called bloom's taxonomy. It's a shortcut for identifying the development of expertise.

In a nutshell, yeah, I'm talking about those that put in the BST vs. those that don't and why.

The first four stages of learning are knowledge, comprehension, application and synthesis.

Knowledge is equal to knowing about something. I have knowledge level understanding of many different styles of martial arts. I can define some terms, and have a general, cursory understanding.

I have knowledge of Kenpo. As I've said, it'd be much easier for me to watch a Kenpo dvd and gain something from it, vs someone who has no knowledge, and tries to fumble their way thru the learning.

Comprehension is knowing something well enough to explain it. Keyboard warriors are a good example of this. DVDs can get you here. So can Wikipedia.

And we've had numerous keyboard warriors on here. I think its safe to say we've seen how well they 'comprehend' things. LOL! For the sake of discussion....I could probably take a TKD dvd and fumble my way thru, trying to copy what they're doing, but my comprehension of it is going to suck, because I dont do TKD. The newbie who'd rather learn from a dvd is going to have a harder time, because of their overall lack of MA training.

Application level is doing something independently, but under controlled conditions. The difference between application and comprehension is feedback. You don't get feedback from a DVD, so it's difficult to progress. Frustration and stagnation are why people tend to quit. Not laziness.

There are other categories, but at a simple level, I like this as a way of understaning skill development. It's also a good way to think about lesson design.

The point is, this is all predictable, reliable and has nothing to do with character or drive. I


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Agreed with everything right up until you said its frustration and stagnation, not laziness, that makes people quit. IMO, it all goes hand in hand. Using myself as an example....as I said earlier, I just began training in a new art. I'd be lying if I said it wasn't the least bit frustrating, to have to learn words in Japanese, the way that they execute strikes and kicks. 26yrs of doing something 1 way, now I have to force myself to learn another way. Yet each and every class I gain a better understanding of things. If I was lazy, I wouldn't be putting in the effort.

 

[Steve]

Uh, slightly off topic, but actually Steve, no, we're not.

I was watching a documentary last night on exactly what the difference is between us and our closest relatives, chimpanzees, looking at how the 2% difference in the DNA manifests itself, and amongst the primary differences is in the brain structure and size (which was in turn related to things like the musculature of the jaw, and so on), so there was an exploration of the results of that difference.

The tests included socialisation questions, such as co-operation problems, and so on, but one of the tests was rather interesting. It involved a black walled box with an opening at the top, a bar across that opening, and another opening at the front. The subjects (both chimpanzees and children) were shown a sequence of actions, tapping the bar, using a rod to push it through out of the way of the top opening, then the rod was pushed into the opening a few times. Finally, the rod was pushed into the front opening, where it picked up a treat. Both the children and chimps managed to follow this sequence quite well, successfully getting the treat each time.

Then it got interesting.

The box was replaced with an identical one, with one exception: the box was see-through. The inner workings of it were exactly the same... and it was revealed that the top half of the box was separated by a floor, meaning that any actions before putting the rod in the front door for the treat meant nothing. Then, the new, clear box was put in front of the subjects again. The chimps managed to figure out pretty quickly that nothing up top meant anything, and just went straight for the treat... but the kids, on the other hand, continued to do all the useless actions they were shown earlier.

It was found that human beings learn by copying, rather than deducing and looking for short cuts, whereas the chimps were more driven by the result, and were therefore more likely to go for a short cut.

Interesting, really.

That is interesting, but as I type this on my laptop, in an air conditioned room, having driven myself to work, mulling over the inventions and advancements that I enjoy, I just have to disagree. While the show seems interesting, we're literally awash in evidence that if there's a more efficient, easier way to do something, we are driven as a species to find it. From industry to agriculture to you name it.

Now, it does seem to me that the show illuminates something a little bit different. As humans, we rely upon visionaries in order to make substantive change. I would agree that most people copy others. The tendency is to see something being done better and to copy it, saying, "Aha. That's brilliant. I'm going to do that, too." I do that. You'd be dumb not to, in my opinion. But you can't ignore that we, as a species, have an abundance of visionaries.

Most relevant, though, is that whether you are inventing a better mousetrap or simply buying/copying that mousetrap, you're doing so out of a genuine desire to make your life easier.

As for the thread, I'll admit that I'm still not sure what the point of it is. If it's about skills development, it seems pretty self apparent to me that in order to move beyond an academic understanding, you have to get hands on instruction.

If it's about whether it's better to take the easy way out or not, I'd say it depends entirely on what the goal is. Suffering and hardship for its own sake is vanity, in my opinion. Unless, of course, tradition is the goal and that tradition is to suffer.