How Long Does It Take?

[MJS]

I agree with the 10,000 hours estimate. Training seriously for 3-4 hours per day, six days per week comes out to about ten years.

And while I can agree with that, lets think about something. The majority of people, even the serious ones, that show up for 2, 3 or more classes a week, at an hour a class, have lives, jobs, families, etc. outside of the dojo. So, IMO, unless the person in question, has little to no commitment elsewhere, the odds of someone actually spending 3-4 hrs/day outside of the classes, is going to be rare. I'm not saying its not done, I'm just saying that there're probably fewer people than we think.

 

[Zenjael]

This is true, and some martial artists are also employed in fashions which allow them to train for 5-6 hours at a time. Some, and it is fewer.

 

[MJS]

This is true, and some martial artists are also employed in fashions which allow them to train for 5-6 hours at a time. Some, and it is fewer.

The 1%ers. Like I said, its not impossible, but for the average person...no, not gonna happen.

 

[puunui]

I'm not sure that I agree with the 10000 hours figure, either. A lot depends on the complexity and nature of the task, as well as the definition of mastery. I think that it's possible to develop a deep, functional, integrated understanding in a relatively short time, IF the training is sufficiently intense and focused. But that's not the same as "learning an entire art in a year" as the OP describes. Or even learning one form, and thinking that qualifies you to teach a system...

It is a general rule of thumb, the 10,000 hours. High level sport coaches at the Olympic or professional level say the same thing, that it takes that long to be a high level coach. And the basic assumption is that those hours are high quality hours, not fool around, hack around type of effort.

 

[puunui]

Seems like some people think that they can learn an art in days. Somehow, those same people then say that the getting good part, takes years. Sorry, but I disagree with that! Anyone who has done any amount of serious training, will know that in a weeks time, there is no way to learn every single thing contained in an art.

Various techniques, kicks, blocks, strikes, stances, weapons, you name it...all those things are contained in many different arts. If it was that easy to learn, everyone would be a black belt in a month.

I think that a reasonably coordinated person can get the physical basics down fairly quickly. But "mastery" I would think would encompass more than that. Another instructor made an interesting comment to me today. He said that barring some sort of physical limitation, autism, etc. that those who come from "good families" were in overwhelmingly more coordinated and pick things up much quicker than those who come from traumatic or problematic home situations. I don't know how that fits in the present conversation, but it was in my head when I wrote this, there it is.

 

[puunui]

The 1%ers. Like I said, its not impossible, but for the average person...no, not gonna happen.

I agree. Most students won't even come close to true mastery, no matter how long or how hard they train. Average people, by definition, are average.

 

[puunui]

And while I can agree with that, lets think about something. The majority of people, even the serious ones, that show up for 2, 3 or more classes a week, at an hour a class, have lives, jobs, families, etc. outside of the dojo. So, IMO, unless the person in question, has little to no commitment elsewhere, the odds of someone actually spending 3-4 hrs/day outside of the classes, is going to be rare. I'm not saying its not done, I'm just saying that there're probably fewer people than we think.

It is not so much about little or no commitment elsewhere so much it is that they have other aspects of their lives which allow them to concentrate on training. If, for example, you have a significant other who does not approve of your extended training schedule and/or does not support you in your efforts in this regard, then the internal conflicts that you face will certainly be a hinderence. This goes not only for martial arts, but any worthwhile endeavor. If you want to spend lots of time with your family or your personal life, then get a 9-5 job, as opposed to running your own or someone else's company. The choices you make in one area will affect other areas of your life. Neither to good nor bad, just what is good or bad for you.

 

[jasonbrinn]

Interesting question that I don't believe can be answered other than to say - it takes as long as it takes. Some people I believe can master their arts relatively fast (a few years or so) but to be a "Master" I believe calls for something that transcends knowledge and ability. The terms seem to be confused and fused together way too often for my taste. Most of my teachers over the years had truly mastered their respective arts but I have only met 1 maybe 2 Masters in my entire 30 year martial arts career. The moment I met them no one needed to tell me they were a Master and the moment they got on the mat no one questioned it. I have seen humble Masters get on the mat and the only thing the crowd participating could do is watch in silence as they demonstrated their skill.

A real problem today is the quality of instruction. There are simply too many instructors who have yet to master what they teach teaching their arts as Masters.

Imagine you have student A under the "non-master" instructor spending 10 years training.

Imagine you have student B under a Master spending 3 years training.

 

[MJS]

I think that a reasonably coordinated person can get the physical basics down fairly quickly. But "mastery" I would think would encompass more than that. Another instructor made an interesting comment to me today. He said that barring some sort of physical limitation, autism, etc. that those who come from "good families" were in overwhelmingly more coordinated and pick things up much quicker than those who come from traumatic or problematic home situations. I don't know how that fits in the present conversation, but it was in my head when I wrote this, there it is.

Punches, kick, blocks, stances...probably, but again, I'd have to question how well they'd be able to do them. I think there may be some confusion as well, when people are saying, "learn the system." Ok, to what capacity? I'll use Kenpo as an example. Typically, there're 24 techs/belt. There are at least 2 katas/forms as well, per belt. There are also various blocks, kicks, stances, strikes, etc. for each belt level. So, IMHO, for someone to think that they'd be able to learn all this in a months time, well, I'd say its next to impossible. And no, despite what Alex said in another thread, the inst. has nothing to do with it.

 

[MJS]

It is not so much about little or no commitment elsewhere so much it is that they have other aspects of their lives which allow them to concentrate on training. If, for example, you have a significant other who does not approve of your extended training schedule and/or does not support you in your efforts in this regard, then the internal conflicts that you face will certainly be a hinderence. This goes not only for martial arts, but any worthwhile endeavor. If you want to spend lots of time with your family or your personal life, then get a 9-5 job, as opposed to running your own or someone else's company. The choices you make in one area will affect other areas of your life. Neither to good nor bad, just what is good or bad for you.

I agree. I think we're pretty much saying the same thing. I was doing martial arts long before I met my wife. She was and still is, supportive of what I do. She has her hobbies, which I also support. I divide my time between training and things that we need to do or just spending time together after work. Of course, finding a job that is suitable for our lifestyle may prove to be a difficult task, especially now, in todays economy. Currently, I'm able to work 8-4, which allows free time at night. However, thats always subject to change. Fortunately, one of my instructors is very accomodating. The dojo that I attend has classes 6 days a week, so even when working nights, I'm always able to make at least 2-3 classes.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hi Mike,

It's actually true, but nobody is capable.

I'll tell you from the perspective of my system. The techniques themselves are important, but not quite in the way that people believe they are. They are simply examples of how to apply the principles and the foundation of our system, and are not an end in and of themselves. They are useful, but are not THE POINT of training. If you understand the principles and the foundation of our system, then every single movement that you make, whether it's a proper "technique" or not, can be a devastating technique. And understanding that issue is far more important than cultivating a list of techniques.

The principles and foundation of our system are actually pretty simple: strong root, use the rooted stance to drive body rotation, and use full-body engagement thru the rotation to apply all techniques. That is really it, and that gets taught, or at least explained, very quickly.

The problem is, it takes a lot of work before anyone really understands what this means and how to use it effectively, and to develop a level of real skill with it. But at least in theory, if one had the vision to fully understand what this means from the first day, then that is all the instruction that one would need.

The techniques and the forms are taught as a way of training these principles into the body, as examples of how the principles are used. Nobody has the vision to fully understand this from the beginning, everyone needs to go thru the process of learning and training and drilling the techniques before this comprehension arises. Once that training has been accomplished, then one can understand that the entire system is contained in a very few basics and principles and foundation.

With our system, one does not need to learn much in order to be able to fight, as long as one properly understands what they have learned. And a brighter student will arrive at that understanding after learning less of the curriculum than a less bright student. One could become very very competent and skilled with our system with just a small amount of material, if it is properly understood and properly trained. In my opinion, the later material is there as additional examples for training, and my Sifu has even said as much. If you wish to be a teacher, then you cannot predict how much material a student must learn before he "gets" it. One student might get it after learning a little bit, but another student might need to learn more before he gets it. And other students may never get it, even if they learn all of it. But if you get it, then honestly you do not need to learn more, at least not for yourself. If you wish to be a teacher, then you should learn more in case your students need it.

So yes, one can learn the principles of our system quickly. But reality shows us that it takes a long time and a lot of training to fully understand what it is all about.

 

[chinto]

30 years or so of constant training... perhaps you might master most of a system. depending on aptitude and things. but It takes YEARS AND YEARS, not months or weeks!

 

[puunui]

The dojo that I attend has classes 6 days a week, so even when working nights, I'm always able to make at least 2-3 classes.

Do you ever have a chance to work out on your own? That is where I can work out things for myself.

 

[MJS]

Do you ever have a chance to work out on your own? That is where I can work out things for myself.

Sure. When I was working nights, I'd work stuff during the day. I have my nights free for a while, so during that time, I'll be taking advantage of many classes.

 

[puunui]

Sure. When I was working nights, I'd work stuff during the day. I have my nights free for a while, so during that time, I'll be taking advantage of many classes.

I think everyone needs that sort of alone time training. Does wonders.