Blocks are useless, right?

[seasoned]

Each style or art of self defense has at its root, theory and principles. This is the part of anyone’s art that can not be taught. You can learn techniques, but to learn the essence of ones art you must feel it. You can not teach feeling you must experience it for yourself. This feeling is where your art begins to separate the beginner from the master. An art, in time, and hard work, should produce an artist. When I first learned Karate, my kata was filled with blocks. In time, when I began to spar, I would use these blocks, and at times they would work. What became very apparent to me after a while was the fact that these blocks did not work well with the more experienced students, and almost never when sparring my Sensei. Some how when we sparred Sensei, he was never where he was suppose to be when we attacked him, but always showed up to cream us. So I guess the question we are all asking and defining here is, are there blocks or not? I would have to say yes but not the same as when I learned them. As a novice a block was a block, but as I advanced and started to practice the more advanced kata, I discovered proper foot work along with proper body shifting would transfer my blocks into a whole new realm. With the opening of the hand when blocking and a more circular approach derived from the advanced kata my blocks started to blend with strikes. When doing drills the blocks turned into traps and deflections. Once we incorporated Tensho kata which is the pushing hands kata of Okinawan GoJu, did we truly start to feel our opponent, and with this feeling came a sense of moving with them and to help them move toward their destruction. Because Tensho was derived from White Crane, and White Crane theory and principles were brought back from China by Chojun Miyagi it stands to reason that there is more then meets the eye here. White Crane and Karate did not seem to mix well, or does it? What part of White Crane was being blended with karate? If you were to go to art school to learn to paint you would be given techniques on how to hold the brush along with proper brush strokes and the blending of colors. With this knowledge alone would you become an artist? I think any serious student of martial arts in time needs to move past what he has learned and begin to feel within himself what the art is saying. In my art of GoJu which means Hard/soft I have spent a life time trying to understand where my art would take me in my older years. Well now, by some standards, I have arrived. I can tell you that from this vantage point my mental outlook pertaining to martial arts looks and feels nothing like it did when I was banging with the best of them. Everything in life is subject to change and our chosen art is no different. I feel that with an open mind and a yearning to understand we can take this art into old age with the confidence that we will not be side lined but will continue to learn and if need be kick some butt. Where, are your blocks taking you?

 

[Kframe]

I feel I should chime in. 2 people I converse with regularly, have helped me a lot in my journey through martial arts. What im doing is karate inspired mma, not like Machida.

One is a 2bb shorin ryu black belt and the other is a higher ranking GOJO ryu black belt. One thing that both of them have told me about blocks, is the following.

Blocks have a primary and a secondary movement. In a real altercation you don't have to perform both the primary and secondary movements of the block. You can choose the movement that is best appropriate for the situation and how you intend to follow it up. Each movement will have a different effect on the attack. Say the primary movmemt may leave you on the inside of a attack and if you use the secondary movement you may end up on the outside, or vice versa.

Secondly that they must have some body movement. You just don't stand there and use your arms, you have to move, and use foot work.
From there, each style thinks about it differently. My coach, believes that our blocks are strikes, and should do damage, and that movement and foot work and evasion go hand in hand with our blocking techniques. The 5th black belt KKW TKD black belt I talked to also has this philosophy in mind when teaching his students, at what is probably the only worth while TKD place in Fort Wayne..

I honestly think that the term block needs to stop being used. Dan Djerivic labels blocks as hard force on force blocks. To use my base art of Boxing, we have several hard true to the term blocks. The most obvious is the double arm block, it is just a shield in front of the face and body, it is a a true block. So is the defensive inside fighting block.

When looking at what im taught, what the local tkd place is taught and what my much more experienced friends and acquaintances across the pond teach, we need to use a different name for these things. Dan for instance prefers interception and deflection, as his arts style of "blocking" is not intended to do damage.(at least according to him any ways) My shorin friend and that tkd instructor have a more damaging style of "blocking", for them I think striking redirection are appropriate. Though for all of them, I think that interception may be a great catch all term, as there are many ways to intercept a incoming attack. You do damage to the limb, or not.

What drove me nuts on this forum for a long time were, when someone asked about blocking, they would only get the canned responses. "there are no blocks" Then proceed to not give any details and only served to befuddle me for the longest time. It was only recently that I have begun to understand the nature of defenses, movement and stances. All of which work together to form your defense and offence.
That is my 2 cents, which are worth nothing thanks to inflation and 17trillion in debt.

 

[RTKDCMB]

You can define a block as any technique that physically stops an attack from hitting you by changing the direction and/or speed of the attacking tool.

 

[K-man]

You can define a block as any technique that physically stops an attack from hitting you by changing the direction and/or speed of the attacking tool.

I agree with the first part .."You can define a block as any technique that physically stops an attack from hitting you."
The second part is redirecting, deflecting or avoiding, not blocking.

Webster definition of block.

an obstruction of an opponent's play in sports; especially : a halting or impeding of the progress or movement of an opponent in football by use of the body

Macmillan definitiona movement that stops someone from hitting you or from going forwards

Oxford definition
an obstacle to the normal progress or functioning of something.

make the movement or flow in (a passage, pipe, road, etc.) difficult or impossible:

Collins definition
the act of obstructing or condition of being obstructed, as in sports

to obstruct (a passage, channel, etc) or prevent or impede the motion or flow of (something or someone) by introducing an obstacle ⇒ to block the traffic, to block up a pipe
to impede, retard, or prevent (an action, procedure, etc)

Imagine I have a football player running towards his goal. If I stand right in front of him so that he runs into me I have blocked or tried to block his passage. If he is running at me and I step off the line, even if I give him a bit of a shove that changes his line of motion, I have not blocked his progress towards his goal.

So it is in martial arts. If we clash and physically stop the attack it is a block. If we redirect or deflect, the attack continues in the new direction giving us the chance to attack before the attacker even realises his attack has failed. This is not a block. If you accept that a block is going to stop an attack it really means a smaller person is always going to be struggling to stop a bigger, stronger attacker. 'Blocks' are likely to be ineffectual for this person. If the same smaller person employs the 'uke' techniques available through our martial art training, he/she will actually regain the advantage. :asian:

 

[K-man]

Perhaps karate was intended for close range; I don't train in it so my argument is somewhat limited. But I've always been a little skeptical of that argument. Limited range focuses are a sporting artifact, I think. Traditional jujutsu includes techniques at all ranges. Most Chinese arts include techniques from long to short range, as well. And why would you wait until someone's almost got their hands on you to deal with them?

Karate obviously can be used from different ranges as well. In a sporting context you can't just up and leave a confrontation. You have to work on entry, and perhaps exit, strategies. Same would be the case if I was the aggressor. However, in a self defence context, I would suggest that in the absence of other factors such as family or friends or multiple attackers, I have no need for a long range strategy, I can just leave. Even if I can't leave, I don't have to attack. I can wait for my opponent to try to breach my defence. In answer to your last point .. "why would you wait until someone's almost got their hands on you to deal with them?" I would say it is easier to attack from a strong defence than it is to try to get through someone else's defence and from a legal point of view, with witnesses, it may be difficult for them to determine who is the actual aggressor if it is you who attacks first from a distance. The question that will always be asked is .. could the confrontation have been avoided? :asian:

 

[RTKDCMB]

I agree with the first part .."You can define a block as any technique that physically stops an attack from hitting you."
The second part is redirecting, deflecting or avoiding, not blocking.

Macmillan definition a movement that stops someone from hitting you or from going forwards - A deflection, avoidance and redirection fits into this definition. You can stop someone from hitting you by moving out of the way.


Oxford definition an obstacle to the normal progress or functioning of something. A deflection and redirection fits into this definition. Squirt a hose at a rock and it will block the water from going past it bywill redirecting it somewhere else.


Collins definition the act of obstructing or condition of being obstructed, as in sports. A deflection fits into this definition. A deflection is a partial obstruction.

You see where things start to blur together.

You can block force on force, deflect, parry attack or redirect with the same technique that moves the same way, just in different circumstances and level of impact.

 

[K-man]

You can block force on force, deflect, parry attack or redirect with the same technique that moves the same way, just in different circumstances and level of impact.

Whatever! We will just have to agree to disagree. Maybe in a few years you may change your position as many of us here have done.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Whatever! We will just have to agree to disagree. Maybe in a few years you may change your position as many of us here have done.

I don't need to change my position, my position is just fine the way it is on this subject. Just because we differ in some opinions it does not mean you are the one who is correct.

 

[Argus]

You can block force on force, deflect, parry attack or redirect with the same technique that moves the same way, just in different circumstances and level of impact.

The two are inseparably different.

Let's say I intercept your attack with my tan-sao, or spreading hand, up high and at a very bent and collapsed angle. Rather than "spreading" your attack downwards, it's probably going to collapse into my face.

You're either using the shape correctly, and in a good position, or you're using it poorly, and in a bad position. Bluntly meeting an opposing force usually means that you're using it poorly and in a bad position.

- at least, that's the case in my art, and probably a lot of others that utilize deflecting / redirection motions.

All of the latter half ("deflect, parry attack or redirect with the same technique that moves the same way") is usually true, though not always. Not all deflecting / redirection movements have the potential to attack straight away (ie, bong-sau, to give another WC example).

 

[oftheherd1]

Just curious. If you try to hit me with your fist, striking towards my head, and I redirect your strike but don't stop it cold, what would that be called? That whether I push it aside or strike your forearm with all the force I can muster.

 

[Zero]

I like what Brian and Kframe have said. Like in fencing a "block" can be a pary, a deflection, where you with angled movement and little effort redirect/deflect the strike away from you - you can choose to stay on your line and not move/shift if this gives you a more direct and straight counter into the oppoent's body, or at the same time - or before - you employ your deflective strike (oops did I say strike, I mean block (I mean "pary")) you can move off line, either purely for evasion or to riposte/counter from angle into opponent.

And then obviously, such as in goju, karate and many other styles you have the joint or limb destruction strikes which you use to damage the opponent's attack, while at the same time stopping (ie blocking) the attack from hitting your core body. Of course, it can be stated in many applications that this is not a block at all, as if you have moved off line there is no actual block (as you are off line and would not get hit even if you did not engage (your defensive - and offensive - action been to move/evade)).

And as Kframe points out, at times "block" is simply the best word, I really think all of us get too hung up on "there are no blocks - what is a block?". When I am jammed in a corner and an opponent has got the upper on me, sometimes there in all honesty is no chance to "redirect" or "deflect" or move". You simply "cover up" - this is pure and simple a block, and one that will save your butt. You are blocking the hits from striking your core/head - the parts that matter. Sometimes when you find yourself in a real fight (not sparing or conceptualising) but actually in the ring in a corner or on the ropes, or on the subway and have managed to get jammed without space, you do not have time (or more importantly the space or option) to evade, shift and "strike" - you simply do have to crudely "block" and then hit. Blocks and hits, that's all there really is (I actually prefer this to the below that you also see stated a lot and I happen to like).

A block is a block, a strike is a strike and sometimes (not always) a block is a strike and a strike is a block and a strike : )

 

[RTKDCMB]

You're either using the shape correctly, and in a good position, or you're using it poorly, and in a bad position. Bluntly meeting an opposing force usually means that you're using it poorly and in a bad position.

To be clear, by force on force (may be poorly chosen term) I mean meeting an attack by moving your arm in the opposite direction such as using an outer forearm block against a back fist strike or an X-block against a front kick. You are not trying to knock the arm out of the way, which would be using it poorly, but just stopping the attack from hitting you by presenting a barrier and there are ways to reduce the impact to you such as moving the body away. Although there are many techniques to block (parry or deflect) to block a back fist there is only one basic way (that I know of) to block it (can't block it by meeting it in the same direction, for example because it would be redundant and you would be blocking it into you).

 

[Touch Of Death]

I like what Brian and Kframe have said. Like in fencing a "block" can be a pary, a deflection, where you with angled movement and little effort redirect/deflect the strike away from you - you can choose to stay on your line and not move/shift if this gives you a more direct and straight counter into the oppoent's body, or at the same time - or before - you employ your deflective strike (oops did I say strike, I mean block (I mean "pary")) you can move off line, either purely for evasion or to riposte/counter from angle into opponent.

And then obviously, such as in goju, karate and many other styles you have the joint or limb destruction strikes which you use to damage the opponent's attack, while at the same time stopping (ie blocking) the attack from hitting your core body. Of course, it can be stated in many applications that this is not a block at all, as if you have moved off line there is no actual block (as you are off line and would not get hit even if you did not engage (your defensive - and offensive - action been to move/evade)).

And as Kframe points out, at times "block" is simply the best word, I really think all of us get too hung up on "there are no blocks - what is a block?". When I am jammed in a corner and an opponent has got the upper on me, sometimes there in all honesty is no chance to "redirect" or "deflect" or move". You simply "cover up" - this is pure and simple a block, and one that will save your butt. You are blocking the hits from striking your core/head - the parts that matter. Sometimes when you find yourself in a real fight (not sparing or conceptualising) but actually in the ring in a corner or on the ropes, or on the subway and have managed to get jammed without space, you do not have time (or more importantly the space or option) to evade, shift and "strike" - you simply do have to crudely "block" and then hit. Blocks and hits, that's all there really is (I actually prefer this to the below that you also see stated a lot and I happen to like).

A block is a block, a strike is a strike and sometimes (not always) a block is a strike and a strike is a block and a strike : )

You see now you are adding cover into the mix. If someone is raining blows on you and all you can do is cover up, its called cover. LOL Cover may look like a block to a third party, but you are in fact absorbing the shot and not deflecting.

 

[Zero]

You see now you are adding cover into the mix. If someone is raining blows on you and all you can do is cover up, its called cover. LOL Cover may look like a block to a third party, but you are in fact absorbing the shot and not deflecting.

Absolutely, nothing in the rule book says a "block" needs to have deflection as a component and that a block cannot involve absorbtion. You are blocking the shots - with your arms/gloves - from impacting on your torso/head. The strike is "blocked" (call it cover if you will). This is absorbtion by the arms/hands but is still in itself a block. Covering up essentially creates a blockage (= stop) to the blows hitting your vital areas. The blinds "cover" the window and "block" the sun coming in, the sunscrean "covers" the body and "blocks" the nasty UV getting through, the arms "cover" the body and "block" the blows coming in. : )

From being in this posiiton numerous times in the "first person" and in the "second person" (ie delivering end), cover is just blocking those punches from putting a real hurt on.

Not for a moment am I saying "cover" should not be and is not "cover" as in the boxing concept, which is used plenty much out of boxing also, it is just that cover (when you boil it down) = blocking. How can it not?

$10 bucks (that's all I got) if you can convince me otherwise.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Absolutely, nothing in the rule book says a "block" needs to have deflection as a component and that a block cannot involve absorbtion. You are blocking the shots - with your arms/gloves - from impacting on your torso/head. The strike is "blocked" (call it cover if you will). This is absorbtion by the arms/hands but is still in itself a block. Covering up essentially creates a blockage (= stop) to the blows hitting your vital areas. The blinds "cover" the window and "block" the sun coming in, the sunscrean "covers" the body and "blocks" the nasty UV getting through, the arms "cover" the body and "block" the blows coming in. : )

From being in this posiiton numerous times in the "first person" and in the "second person" (ie delivering end), cover is just blocking those punches from putting a real hurt on.

Not for a moment am I saying "cover" should not be and is not "cover" as in the boxing concept, which is used plenty much out of boxing also, it is just that cover (when you boil it down) = blocking. How can it not?

$10 bucks (that's all I got) if you can convince me otherwise.

Block has so many meanings it becomes unuseful as a teaching tool. When a boxer tucks his chin into his shoulder to block strikes to the jaw, you don't simply say, "Block!" from the sidelines. You say, "cover up your chin!" LOL The harsh reality is that most people in the world understand Block to mean inward, outward, upward, and downward (imagine some guy in a horse executing those basics) Everything else gets called something else to make it easier for the student. I agree that everything including a choke, is a block, but Block is the big category, and all the ways we can block are the little categories with useful and descriptive names.

 

[RTKDCMB]

Absolutely, nothing in the rule book says a "block" needs to have deflection as a component and that a block cannot involve absorbtion. You are blocking the shots - with your arms/gloves - from impacting on your torso/head. The strike is "blocked" (call it cover if you will). This is absorbtion by the arms/hands but is still in itself a block. Covering up essentially creates a blockage (= stop) to the blows hitting your vital areas. The blinds "cover" the window and "block" the sun coming in, the sunscrean "covers" the body and "blocks" the nasty UV getting through, the arms "cover" the body and "block" the blows coming in. : )

From being in this posiiton numerous times in the "first person" and in the "second person" (ie delivering end), cover is just blocking those punches from putting a real hurt on.

Not for a moment am I saying "cover" should not be and is not "cover" as in the boxing concept, which is used plenty much out of boxing also, it is just that cover (when you boil it down) = blocking. How can it not?

$10 bucks (that's all I got) if you can convince me otherwise.

Lets not forget curling up in the fetal position.

 

[Zero]

(imagine some guy in a horse executing those basics)

I'm playing around a little bit while at the same time being serious, if in a simplistic manner, so I think we are totally on the same page, (but I don't think I need to shill out the $10).

Also, you completely lost me on that comment with horses, it all went South about there when you started going on about imagining men "in" horses. Or were you talking about the stance?: )

 

[Touch Of Death]

I'm playing around a little bit while at the same time being serious, if in a simplistic manner, so I think we are totally on the same page, (but I don't think I need to shill out the $10).

Also, you completely lost me on that comment with horses, it all went South about there when you started going on about imagining men "in" horses. Or were you talking about the stance?: )

Why, yes I was talking about the Horse Stance, but they could be on actual horses. It makes no difference. Its your imagination.

 

[Zero]

Lets not forget curling up in the fetal position.

Yes, one of the worst kind of "blocks" one can imagine, but if your knees - head/face are curled in and your hands up and around your head and back of neck, it may just keep you alive if the cops can get there in time or the thugs loose interest.

 

[Zero]

Thanks, I was imagining knights on horse back with lances and swords