Blocking useless?

[lklawson]

And so while even modern bare knuckle isn't using old timey boxing concepts that still doesn't give you a hint about its relevance to modern combat sports of any kind?

Strangely, I don't remember commenting about the relevance of "modern bare knuckle boxing" to "modern combat sports." But hey, you definitely scored an Ipon on that straw man!

 

[drop bear]

Strangely, I don't remember commenting about the relevance of "modern bare knuckle boxing" to "modern combat sports." But hey, you definitely scored an Ipon on that straw man!

Your conclusion regarding the rule change is wrong. When we can see similar methods being used regardless of rule changes.

Small gloves, big gloves, grappling.

Rules did change. Boxing did change. But they don't have to be directly related.

Not sure how much simpler it needs to be.

 

[lklawson]

Your conclusion regarding the rule change is wrong. When we can see similar methods being used regardless of rule changes.

I claimed that blocking existed in historic boxing because the rules allowed for and encouraged its use and that blocking eventually disappeared from boxing because the rules changed in such a way as to not support or encourage blocking. I've presented evidence to support my claim. Your turn.

Rules did change. Boxing did change. But they don't have to be directly related.

But in this case, they are.

 

[jks9199]

I did huh? Well, I must be suffering from memory loss because I don't remember using those words. Would you mind quoting where I wrote that? Put in a link to my post. Here, use this line:
_________________________________________________________________

I didn't see such an argument made, either. Certainly, I saw the argument that rule changes shaped and influenced tactics and techniques, but not thst itvwas the sole factor.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[drop bear]

I claimed that blocking existed in historic boxing because the rules allowed for and encouraged its use and that blocking eventually disappeared from boxing because the rules changed in such a way as to not support or encourage blocking. I've presented evidence to support my claim. Your turn.

But in this case, they are.

Yet within different rule sets nobody really blocks in that manner?

Which I provided evidence of.

I am not sure trying to sell a book is evidence.

 

[lklawson]

Yet within different rule sets nobody really blocks in that manner?

Which I provided evidence of.

So, nothing then.

I am not sure trying to sell a book is evidence.

Huh? Which book am I trying to sell? All of the books I referenced are available as free PDF downloads. Follow the link. Look around. I see you're not really putting much effort into this. I take it that this means you're not really interested in the discussion but just want to stir the pot.

 

[marques]

I use 'blocks' a bit like 'parry', slightly deviating the strike. Or with like feet, so I move with the impact. I like this softer way and it works for me.
But I don't see how 'hard blocks' cannot work for trained young people. A hard block can be equivalent to a strike.
PS: Didn't spend 8 min watching the video...

 

[JowGaWolf]

Huh? Which book am I trying to sell?

lol. If I write a book will people buy it? just checking

 

[JP3]

I use blocks all the time. I never use the boxing cover up because I don't like it and whenever I spar I use traditional style blocks all through my fighting career and sparring

When I transitioned out of traditional TKD & HKD into Muay Thai I started morphing my blocks to use the same blocks from a more Thai-boxing stance and posture. It ended up happening naturally, I didn't think about it too much, except to note that it seemed to work better as the blocks were stuill principle "correct," though there was some contraction tot he movement, and it took place in a fraction of the area in space, thus required a LOT less time, than before.

Best block is to not be there, though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

lol. If I write a book will people buy it? just checking

You can get a publisher to publish your book. You may just get 30 cents from each book sale. You may print book yourself. It may cost you $5000 to print 2000 copies (in Taiwan). You will then have to sale 1 book at a time. There is not much profit in MA book business.

 

[Buka]

lol. If I write a book will people buy it? just checking

Sure.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You may just get 30 cents from each book sale

Wow that's depressing. The time and effort that it takes to write a book and that's all that one will get. That sucks. Eventually I'll have my own book simply because webpages don't last forever. I already see this happen with my CGI hobby that had tutorials and tips. Then one day it was gone and all of that information was no longer available. But yeah 30 cents sucks.

 

[Mountie]

Weird that this topic came up. I'm required to do a demo of some kind for my black belt and have been researching the application of traditional blocks, or in some cases lack of application because they seem so difficult to apply in practical situations. Since I started in karate then switched when I realized I never use the techniques I was taught there it seemed like a good idea.

Still working on it, so if someone here knows more please correct where I'm wrong. So far I'm saddened to see how much of the application portions of these 'blocks' were lost or stripped out. When Karate went to Japan they wanted a striking art to compete with western-style boxing, but stripped out the aspects that overlapped with the Japanese arts, Judo and Aikido. So the throws/arm locks/joint locks were taken away in favour of the 3 K system, kihon, kata and kumite. Then they sparred from a distance like Kendo fighters.

I'm working on a hypothesis that the 'blocking' movements weren't actually meant to be block punches and kicks but as close quarters grappling techniques. But then I study Japanese Ju Jitsu so I might be biased in that area. I've been applying them as defenses from grabs/attacks with some very interesting results and have been adapting throws/takdowns using the same movements.

Most Youtube videos show blocking a punch that was never going to hit you anyway, but some show the moves at close quarters. Here's an okay-ish example. I'll try to find more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I'm working on a hypothesis that the 'blocking' movements weren't actually meant to be block punches and kicks but as close quarters grappling techniques.

In CMA, when you move your hand out (such as a punch or a block), you should never come back empty-handed. That means you need to pull back with something. IMO, this concept can smoothly link the striking art and throwing art together.

- A punch should be a punch followed by a pull.
- A block should be a block followed by a pull.

I don't know when this concept started to be ignored in MA training.

You can use this to stab.

You can use this to stab and pull.

 

[Anarax]

When Karate went to Japan they wanted a striking art to compete with western-style boxing, but stripped out the aspects that overlapped with the Japanese arts, Judo and Aikido. So the throws/arm locks/joint locks were taken away in favour of the 3 K system, kihon, kata and kumite. Then they sparred from a distance like Kendo fighters.

What are you basing this on? I'm not asking in an accusatory way, I like Martial Arts history and haven't heard of that being the genesis of Japanese Karate.

I'm working on a hypothesis that the 'blocking' movements weren't actually meant to be block punches and kicks but as close quarters grappling techniques.

Most martial arts have counters/defenses against the offensive techniques that the style has. Meaning boxing has punch defenses, wrestling has grappling defenses, etc. Thus the blocks in Karate are blocks, but that doesn't mean their motions can't be applied for other uses.

But then I study Japanese Ju Jitsu so I might be biased in that area.

Nice, a fellow JJJ practitioner. I haven't met any other JJJ guys on here.

Most Youtube videos show blocking a punch that was never going to hit you anyway

Yes there are plenty of those videos on youtube, but that's bad representation by poorly skilled people. Their lack of skill doesn't make blocking less valid.

This video is a perfect example of poor representation. The guy doesn't know the application nor the utilization of a low block. My Goju-Ryu teacher taught me to not block a kick with a low arm block. Your opponent/sparring partner will exploit the opening of dropping your arm for the block and will either alter the angle of the kick or punch you in the head. Maybe in some circumstances blocking low would be acceptable, but you must incorporate footwork. For the most part he taught me to block the kick with the shin or jam when possible.

The guy in the video seems to be hung up on making his point, thus he shows the "weaknesses" of a technique that seems he has very little understanding of. It's funny because the video the OP posted is similar in representation. Essentially it's "I need to make this technique look bad to illustrate my point"

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i want you to back up what your claim, rather than just random links

Did you read the link? Does it fail to back up his claim? (I haven't, so I'm asking.)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I claimed that blocking existed in historic boxing because the rules allowed for and encouraged its use and that blocking eventually disappeared from boxing because the rules changed in such a way as to not support or encourage blocking. I've presented evidence to support my claim. Your turn.

But in this case, they are.

I'm entirely unfamiliar with historical rules, Kirk (and only passingly so with modern rules). What made blocking more beneficial within the old rules?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's funny because the video the OP posted is similar in representation. Essentially it's "I need to make this technique look bad to illustrate my point"

Videos that do that always remind me of infomercials: "Do you have trouble carrying your groceries? Always dropping the eggs you balanced on top?"

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm working on a hypothesis that the 'blocking' movements weren't actually meant to be block punches and kicks but as close quarters grappling techniques.

Blocking was always designed to block an incoming strike. But the mindset of a traditional block wasn't to just block, but punish. For example, I'm blocking a punch, but in my mind I'm STRIKING an incoming punch with my Forearm. My opponent was kind enough to give me their arm (as a punch) so I should be kind enough to damage that arm in return. This is the most basic concept of blocking. You may hear people say that they don't block, but what they are describing is this mindset.

In a traditional sense blocking is never just blocking. Blocking is more like BLOCKING + DAMAGE OPPONENT or BLOCKING + FOLLOW WITH STRIKING OR GRAPPLING.
Also keep in mind that a BLOCKING MOTION may have multiple applications. This is when you start getting into hard and soft techniques. It's very rare that a martial art technique will have only one application for that motion.

For example, your video, how he shows blocking the front kick is exactly how Jow Ga Kung Fu uses that motion. It can be used to redirect or smash an opponents leg. There is a nerve that runs down the leg and that particular use of the technique that he was showing will strike that nerve on the leg. If it block misses the nerve then the secondary effect is redirection of the kick which allows you to enter (move forward), the third effect is bruising of the leg. It only works if the forearm is conditioned. The key to using this technique is that you must move off center of the kick, if you don't move off center then you'll risk hitting the shin bone and breaking your arm.

What I've noticed through my own learning of martial arts techniques, is that there is often a lot of figuring out to do. Some teachers will tell you exactly how some things work, some will choose not to, and some don't know at all. The only thing that is consistent is that Martial Arts takes a lot of exploration to really understand how the techniques work.

 

[wab25]

I'm working on a hypothesis that the 'blocking' movements weren't actually meant to be block punches and kicks but as close quarters grappling techniques. But then I study Japanese Ju Jitsu so I might be biased in that area. I've been applying them as defenses from grabs/attacks with some very interesting results and have been adapting throws/takdowns using the same movements.

You should find this interesting. I don't know too much about karate, but this article traces a few "blocking" techniques from Funakoshi down into MMA. (Funakoshi may know a few things about karate) Anyway, its a different look at some of the down blocks in karate.

Lyoto Machida: Old-School Karate