Black History Month is Ridiculous?

[Blotan Hunka]

We all have burdens. Why should one group who has every opportunity and no more legal obstacles than anybody else has get special treatment? Nobody alive remembers being or owning a slave. Why dont you hear as much complaining from the Native Americans who were treated just as unfairly? I think that people are treated differently on large part because they WANT to be treated differently and some lame apology isnt going to change anything. It will jusat be another lame PC political ploy that will accomplish nothing. As to giving MORE money, tossing money at problems is not the solution.

I think this whole argument is insulting and belittling of every African American who took the opportunity this country gave him and became successful. What a country full of excuse finding defeatist helpless wheres my government cheese drones we are becoming.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

My city, Buffalo NY, just elected an African American to the office of Mayor.
Our city government has had a high representation in it by minoritys, including several council presidents I believe.

As an employer, I personally don't care what an individuals race, gender or creed is. Just that they are able to do the tasks required of them in a professional manner.

You say the government is forcing them to live in ghettos. Again, I ask how!
Last I looked, the 'indians' aren't required to live on the reservation, nor have they been in decades. The 'internment camps' of WW2 were closed when that war ended, and it has been apologized for.

As to me personally seeking them out and trying to force them into the light...why should I? Who am I to try and force anyone to better themselves, against their will? Should I show up, grab their kids and take them to school, and try to force them to learn to read? Should I show up and pick up after them? Cut their grass, rake their lawns, pick up their garbage? Tasks that they, though perfectly healthy aren't willing to do?

I say, anyone who is too lazy to take 5 minutes to pick up the trash deserves to live in filth. The extent of my 'charity' is done in the winter when, on occation, I'll snowblow my neighbors sidewalks. Interestingly enough, he returns the favor when he can. Should I head to the 'ghetto' and clear their walks too?

They are behind, as is anyone who is behind, because they are not taking advantage of the gazillion opportunities already there for them. They join gangs because they want to "belong", and because when one is ignorant, one is drawn to the 'pack'. How many former gang members have gotten out, gotten educated, and now work to save others? A number of them.

It's not the governments responsibility to force you to succeed or to support you when you choose to live ignorant and stupid. I think theres too many programs right now that reward lazyness.

The job situation is no different. There are tons of jobs out there. Yes, they suck, they are hard, and they pay crap, but they are there. If you are hungry, you have options. You won't know what they are though, if you don't take the time to look.

I agree with you on a few points. The US shouldn't be out "saving the world" when it's got the same problems here to deal with, which is why I'm a strong believer in bringing ALL the troops home, and rather than sending the billions of dollars in food, medicine and other aid to these 3rd world nations that spit on us, that we should instead seal our borders, and funnel all that effort into cleaning up out inner cities and exterminating the drug culture.


I know people, of African decent, who are struggling now. Fighting their way up in thankless jobs, or doing their own businesses. They are busting their asses, day in and day out, to build a better life for themselves and their families. My hat is off to them, because sometimes, hell, often, they have more dedicvation, more heart, more belief than I do, and I take inspiration from them when my own well runs dry, which it does often.

I know Blacks who are just coasting. Content to collect a check and complain about how "the man" is keeping them down. I have no respect for them, because they haven't put any effort into getting ahead.

I know trash, who refused to goto school, who refused to learn more than bare basic communications skills, who hang out in the 'wrong circles', who look down their noses at the "snobs" who do that "reading ****". They die young, they die poor, and they die badly. I have nothing but contempt for them. They chose that life for themselves. Not I.

I know "whites" who fit the same 3 groups. I have a "friend" who can't hold a job more than a week or 2. Ends up fired or quitting because he doesn't believe he should be inconvenienced by such things as showing up on time, or at all. He constantly complains on how his "rights" are violated, how he's "being repressed", etc. He's not a dummy, just doesn't want to be bothered. So he lives with his mom, he's 44, and when she dies, he'll really be in deep ****. I have a cousin who has a teaching degree, decided not to bother with it, ended up as a network admin at a major corporation making more cash than I can even think about. She did it by working full time while in school, and 2 jobs all summer for 5 years, giving up her social life in order to do so. She recently bought a house (and not a cheap starter home either) and got married. All this, since the 9/11 economic drop hit.

I believe that hard work, belief and drive will take anyone, anywhere, in time. I have no time, patience or love of the lazy.

 

[mantis]

okay
so basically hard work can get you there eventually, that's what you're trying to say.
good i agree.
however, this has nothing to do with treating racism in america.
fair enough. i think i have to agree with you now!

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, we're syncing up. This is good.

2 key points:
Fighting Racism and dealing with past injustices remain.

To fight racism, is a major battle. First, the "distinctions" and "seperateness" must end, not by legistation, but by educating people and encouraging them to see each other as 'people' or 'americans'. Drop the "-american" crap, and the "only for this group" special programs. Stop "quota" hiring practices. Encourage everyone to be the best, to seek out the best, to reach for the best. My background is polish and english. I don't see myself as a "polish american" or an "english-american"...just as an "American." I've been on the floor with straight, gay, jewish, pagan, christian, white, black, yellow and red. All I cared about, and all they cared about was having a good time. It's a pity that others see divisions, where I see uniquenesses to celebrate.

As to the past injustices, they are past. We can't change them, and we didn't do them. The best we can do is say "The US would like to apologize for it's past participation, centuries past, in several deplorable acts such as the near genocide of the Native peoples of this continent, the enslavement of numerous races, and other past atrocities. Those were terrible events, we're sorry that they happened, but we are glad that in our time we have moved beyond such things. We look forward to the continued blendings of our cultures and the continuing intergration of all our citizens", or something close to that. I mean, the Hawaiians got an apology for the theft of their entire nation by the US. If we really wanted to make amends, shouldn't we free Hawaii and return it to self-rule?

 

[7starmantis]

The Republic of the United States of America.

More precisely...whom? Who makes up this republic? Is it not a diverse group of multi-cultural and multi-racial people? We have gained so much to start stepping backwrds now. As we can see from this thread, a public apology is only going to serve to create more problems at this point in time. An apology is an acknowledgement of fault or guilt. There is absolutely no one in the government of today who was even alive during these times. The government has changed by interpretations from the supreme court if by no other way since then. Instead of looking back and bringing focus to a past issue, why can't we look forward and begin to work together more?

This is a strawman argument. No one has ever suggested that you apologize. It doesn't even make sense. It's the federal govt. (and some state govts., but I leave that aside for now) that has done wrong.

Strawman? Its very legit, we are talkingabout apologies. If we want to take it to the government, my uncle is part of that, he is also native american...what kind of apology should his office present?
By the way, this "wrong" you are talking about is almost non-existent. What wrong? Your tryingto say the government created, mandated, and carried out slavery...not so. Also, the "wrongs" have all been overturned and changed now, is that not action enough?

Uh...yes. That's not a controversial stance. If we're not the same govt., we wouldn't be bound by treaty obligations made by older groups, for example. I find it hard to believe that anyone would question whether the U.S. is 200+ years old. How old would you say it is? Just since George W. Bush took office?

Wha? How old would I say it is since Bush took office? What does the age of the entity have to do with its internal changes? The bottom line is that an apology from anyone, regardless of who offers it, is goign to do what exactly? Not a damn thing as far as any type of action that would actually help any of these so called slave races. The very fact that an apology is expected is the continued seperation that feeds racism. If we must be held back by these seperations and exclusionary demands, we will not help to stop racism, but only further the endless cycle it feeds off of.

Before they banned it, they explicitly allowed for its legality, in the Constitution, and they regulated it, taxed the workings of it, etc.

Which has all been changed and made illegal....but we are the same still, right?

But leave that aside. Your argument is that it was OK for the govt. to ignore slavery on its soil for all those years? Nothing wrong with that? As long as they're just ignoring the problem, it's See No Evil, Hear No Evil, Speak No Evil? I want more from my govt. than that.

What in the world? :idunno: Where did I say anything like that? I dont even know where you got anything like that from. I'm completely confused by this.

In case your confused I dont think slavery or the genocide of my ancestors was ok, I also do not think demanding or expecting an apology from a government or people who had nothing to do with it and of whom I am a part will do anything for racism except keep its seperations in our minds.

Well, one can take the point of view "My country, right or wrong" or the point of view "My country, right its wrongs."

And righting those wrongs is not making them illegal, changing policy, changing laws, and punishing those who try to continue in its action? How exactly is an apology going to "right its wrongs"?

let me start from the beginning
simply
what i am saying is to get rid of racism more of the society's money should be employed in more efficient programs that give minorities what they need -- this may require some restructuring of the society example this may lead to having a hispanic president (ur like keep on dreaming haha)

I think we all agree that action is needed. But again, why must help be boxed in by race and colors? Your saying in one breath to drop color and race from our vocabulary, but then saying we need to give finacial help based on race and color. Thats contradictory at best.

now 7starmantis said he doesnt wanna apologize. i said again the apology is not by a specific on individual saying "sorry dude.. my grandfather raped ur grandma coz she was a slave". again, this kind of apology cannot happen by having the government or the administration like George Bush saying "sorry" but it happens by employing the social institutions that already exist, such as the congress, the city counsel and other organizations (yes these were examples i was giving, im not saying society is CONGRESS)

No, please re-read my posts. I said I was confused as to what half of my should apologize and to whom. I was making a point that we are a diverse people now and keeping divisions beteen us in the name of righting wrongs is still....wrong.

I'm in complete agreement that action is needed, but your now sort of backpedling about your "apology" request. Your not talking about an apology now but action. There are those who are speaking of a literal verbal apology, that is what I'm arguing against if anything.

Listen, as we can see from this thread, the expectation of a public apology only serves to strengthen lines of division between us all. Those lines are blurring and we need to stop whatever action will strengthen them, even if it seems like a good idea on the surface.

Remember we are all americans...why must we work hard to devide ourselves into black, white, red, etc? I'm an american as is any black person born here, why should I (multiracial) support an appology to a black american for something niether of us had anything to do with? Why should we even think on this level? Why is there any difference between me and this black american? These types of things sound good but at the core they only support divisions and exclusions that would further racism in america today.

Bottom Line: To support this apology we must also accept and support the lines of seperation between us. This will do nothing to further the cause of stoping racism.

7sm

 

[arnisador]

I'm in complete agreement that action is needed, but your now sort of backpedling about your "apology" request.

Your posts are too confused to merit a response. For other readers, I'll point out that reading my posts in this thread will show that I have not requested an apology, and have said that I don't necessarily support one. The point I am making is that those who say "Why should I, John Doe, apologize in 2005 for this event from the past?" are (intentionally?) misunderstanding/misrepresenting the issue. No one seeks an apology from Bob Hubbard, or others here, for their alleged wrongs. Re-stating the request like that is a strawman argument: switching in an easy-to-refute position for the more difficult position that the govt. itself owes an apology. It's a caricature of the actual request for the govt. to apologize.

An apology itself is likely being requested as a first step toward seeking reparations (which I do not support). It's about money. But the U.S. was wrong to allow slavery for all those years, and an apology would not be inappropiate. I also don't think it'd be helpful, but the objection to apologizing for mass, legalized slavery is hard for me to follow.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The United States of America did not support slavery. By this, I mean it did not as an entiry (as far as I've been able to determine) engage in the obtainment of slaves from Africa or any other location. It did not engage in the importation of those prisoners into this nation. It did not organize or run the slave auctions, nor participate in the exchange of humans for profit.

Those activities were run by independant business entities.

The United States of America did not go to war to free anyone. In fact, when the Emancipation Proclaimation was issued, it was little more than a political move, since it a-did not free slaves still held in the North, and b-was issued 2 years after the start of hostilities. Prior to the start of war, there was an ammendment passed that left the issue of slavery up to the individual states to decide.

Based on this, the United States of America has nothing to apologize for.
The Southern Nation-States that left the Union are no more, they were disolved at the end of hostilities and new organizations under the same name but different constitutions were created to govern the conquored nation-states. Therefore, those who are often seen as the "Evil" also, no longer exist as entities, so again, there is no one to make the apology.

We might as well issue an apology for the 20 million+ murdered by Stalin.

"On Jan. 1, 1863, U.S. President Abraham Lincoln declared free all slaves residing in territory in rebellion against the federal government. This Emancipation Proclamation actually freed few people. It did not apply to slaves in border states fighting on the Union side; nor did it affect slaves in southern areas already under Union control. Naturally, the states in rebellion did not act on Lincoln's order. But the proclamation did show Americans-- and the world--that the civil war was now being fought to end slavery.

Lincoln had been reluctant to come to this position. A believer in white supremacy, he initially viewed the war only in terms of preserving the Union. As pressure for abolition mounted in Congress and the country, however, Lincoln became more sympathetic to the idea. On Sept. 22, 1862, he issued a preliminary proclamation announcing that emancipation would become effective on Jan. 1, 1863, in those states still in rebellion. Although the Emancipation Proclamation did not end slavery in America--this was achieved by the passage of the 13TH Amendment to the Constitution on Dec. 18, 1865--it did make that accomplishment a basic war goal and a virtual certainty. - http://www.7cs.com/Emanc.htm"

As early as 1778 laws were being passed freeing slaves and abolishing slavery. In 1954, the idea of seperate but equal was struck down by the Supreme Court. The NAACP was formed in 1909, and has speedheaded major reforms for african americans. Interestingly enough, it too today is often seen as a "sell out", just like other successful Americans of African decent.

So, over the last 100 years, events have been taking place that attempt to repair and fix the inequalities of the past. They have said "Actions speak louder than words." I think, given the opportunities, the special privilage and the rest, that apology has been given, by action. It is not our fault that a small vocal minority of the greater whole refuses to accept it, and continues to hold to the false belief that they are "second class". In fact, they themselves do the most to reinforce that notion, by their own actions, and lack thereof.

 

[sgtmac_46]

let me start from the beginning
simply
what i am saying is to get rid of racism more of the society's money should be employed in more efficient programs that give minorities what they need -- this may require some restructuring of the society example this may lead to having a hispanic president (ur like keep on dreaming haha)

i said this is the way an apology should happen. by dropping the word color, or race from all of our actions, and by putting money where it's supposed to go (example: fix LA's schools for example rather than going to war or something!)

now 7starmantis said he doesnt wanna apologize. i said again the apology is not by a specific on individual saying "sorry dude.. my grandfather raped ur grandma coz she was a slave". again, this kind of apology cannot happen by having the government or the administration like George Bush saying "sorry" but it happens by employing the social institutions that already exist, such as the congress, the city counsel and other organizations (yes these were examples i was giving, im not saying society is CONGRESS)

who forced them to live in ghettoes? what kinda argument is that man? who forced the indians to live in camps, the japanese, and who's discriminating the middle easterns today? THE EFFING GOVERNMENT MAN!

you are saying my arguments do not hold under the facts available in this nation HALLILUJA man. that's what im saying. what's available in this nation MUST go if you want racism to go. it's obviously not feasible any soon. i agree!

last thing i want to emphasize is what i noticed from this long long convo with you guys: you guys treat the minorities as sub classes of people who happen to live somewhere in the same country. let's say the blacks are behind for some reason (whatever the reasons is) they're behind in education, they join gangs, they drink, they fall into drugs (and all other prototypes) let's assume this is right, YOU as an american who share the same nationality and the same country with these people do you just leave them to do it on their own? or do you STRIVE to help them out? (help them maybe by stirring your political power in that direction)
americans say they are willing to go to afghanistan and Iraq to free them from dictatorships and such, but they are not willing to do 1/4 of that effort to free minorities from the existing burdens?! that does not make sense man.

i did read your replies to my points, but i'd rather not reply to them again. hopefully this post establishes a clearer idea on where i stand and what i want.
thanks bob, thanks 7star and the rest!

We've been force feeding money in to social programs in black communities, hand over fist, for decades....and the problem is getting WORSE.

How many more billions in government give aways will we have to spend, before you realize that it isn't the answer? Oh, I know 'all of it'.

The problem, as it stands now, is purely internal. Excuses and requests for apologise only exasperate the problem. Why do you think black americans like Bill Cosby are coming forward to say enough is enough? Because they see that the problem is internal, and handouts only serve to make the problem worse.

Question? How is giving a heroin addict more money going to help him? The sad fact is, a heroin addict needs to want to make his own life better first, before ANYONE can help him. You can't FORCE someone to get better. The problem in the African American communities won't be solved by any amount of 'White Man's guilt' money. In fact, it is the belief that they are OWED this money, and they should rely on it, that has created the victim mentality. Opportunity? Yes. Handout? NO!!!!

Part of the problem is $800.00 rims on $500.00 cars. What I mean is the shallow materialism of the inner-city. Wealth is defined as big screen tv's, stereo's and spinning rims. (They spinnin'!!!-Chris Rock). Many in the inner city believe that prosperity is found in the trivially material. The ability to buy $200.00 shoes, and gold chains, when many of them have to rely on government assistance to feed their families.

What's more, that's not a black problem alone. It's indicative of much poverty. In fact, it's a mindset that is poverty creating. It is the reason that many white americans are poor as well. The problem isn't that they live in extreme poverty, the problem is that they live in comfortable reliance on the state.

There's a HUGE difference. If they lived in extreme poverty, many would take advantage of whatever existed to help get them out. However, if the state is going to foot much of the bill, there's really no need to get out of the 'relative poverty'.

To illustrate what I mean, contrast that shallow materialism with this...

I have a family who are friends of mine who are immigrants from Indonesia. They moved here, virtually impoverished. Eventually, however, through hardwork and financial discipline, they were able to purchase a motel. The entire family worked their, and they worked like slaves, saved like misers, and lived like paupers, until they'd saved enough to buy ANOTHER motel. Then half the family went their.

Eventually, using the same method, they bought a third motel. Now, honestly, you wouldn't know to look at them, they don't dress flashy, but they are worth a considerable amount of money. Moreover, they can afford to send their children to just about any college.

Another man I know is a doctor from the Phillipines. I was having a conversation with him the other night, and he told me that he has a friend in the Phillipines who has worked for 15 years, and has finally saved up enough to buy a car. This doctor told me that he was here in the US for 6 months, and he bought his first car.

Now, these people, who came to the US with virtually nothing, are among the biggest advocates I know who claim that America is a land of opportunity. They are also among the most unsympathetic to the cry that you can't make it in America. As far as they are concerned, if you can't make it in America, you can't make it anywhere. Moreover, you should be ashamed of yourself, if you can't make it in America.

That is basically what the doctor told me, that he really doesn't understand all the whinning going on in America. As far as he's concerned, it's a golden land of opportunity.

I guess it takes living in REAL poverty, to understand how relatively good we have it, and what opportunities are available to the industrious and self-reliant.

 

[7starmantis]

Your posts are too confused to merit a response. For other readers, I'll point out that reading my posts in this thread will show that I have not requested an apology, and have said that I don't necessarily support one. The point I am making is that those who say "Why should I, John Doe, apologize in 2005 for this event from the past?" are (intentionally?) misunderstanding/misrepresenting the issue. No one seeks an apology from Bob Hubbard, or others here, for their alleged wrongs. Re-stating the request like that is a strawman argument: switching in an easy-to-refute position for the more difficult position that the govt. itself owes an apology. It's a caricature of the actual request for the govt. to apologize.

Ah, c'mon now. Confusing is using the term "government" as a static absolute entity and asking "it" to do anything.

An apology itself is likely being requested as a first step toward seeking reparations (which I do not support). It's about money. But the U.S. was wrong to allow slavery for all those years, and an apology would not be inappropiate. I also don't think it'd be helpful, but the objection to apologizing for mass, legalized slavery is hard for me to follow.

It seems that when I hear the issue of an apology it comes from those not on the side of actually receiving the apology. In other words (not to confuse) most people who support a public apology from anyone are usually white (those who are at fault according to this argument). I'm a registered member of the Comanche Nation, I have dual citizenship, if you will. I would be one of the ones apologized to, and I think its crap. Maybe we should ask those minorities if they really want an apology before "we" force anything else on them.

Bottom Line is still that to support an apology from anyone is to support divisional seperations that make us not Americans or One People, but many seperate individuals. We should seek for action that unites, not action that keeps us seperate.

My own "half-breed" opinions,
7sm

 

[sgtmac_46]

Ah, c'mon now. Confusing is using the term "government" as a static absolute entity and asking "it" to do anything.

Well, he's operating under the belief that the US government is just like a business, and that the share holders are responsible for earlier actions of the company. One HUGE difference, governments are not profit making organizations. There are no shareholders, unless you refer to the average american as a shareholder. In that case, we're back to all of US apologizing.

It seems that when I hear the issue of an apology it comes from those not on the side of actually receiving the apology. In other words (not to confuse) most people who support a public apology from anyone are usually white (those who are at fault according to this argument). I'm a registered member of the Comanche Nation, I have dual citizenship, if you will. I would be one of the ones apologized to, and I think its crap. Maybe we should ask those minorities if they really want an apology before "we" force anything else on them.

Yeah, it's complete garbage.

Bottom Line is still that to support an apology from anyone is to support divisional seperations that make us not Americans or One People, but many seperate individuals. We should seek for action that unites, not action that keeps us seperate.

My own "half-breed" opinions,
7sm

'half-breed'...heh heh...Every time I see that word, I think of Cher in buckskins. :rofl:

 

[mantis]

One HUGE difference, governments are not profit making organizations.

this has got to be the funniest joke i heard in 2005
that's just hilarious
good joke bro! non-profit organization? lol

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I think Bill Gates turned down the idea of running for similar reasons.

mmm. Buckskins...Cher.
Wait, was this before or after the tatoos? :rofl:

 

[sgtmac_46]

this has got to be the funniest joke i heard in 2005
that's just hilarious
good joke bro! non-profit organization? lol

In case you haven't heard, my friend, governments don't produce profits, ours produce deficits. If a company operated like most governments, they'd be bankrupt and their CEO's eating in a soup kitchen.

That you believe they ARE profit making is only an indication of how out of touch you apparently are.

Also if we're talking continuous institutions, such as governments, being liable, and if we are referring to financial liability as well, doesn't that make the British Crown the single MOST liable entity involved in the Slave Trade in the western hemisphere.

In fact, overwhelming majority of slaves brought to the area now called the US, were brought while it was a British holding. Importation of further slaves was abolished by congress in 1808, so only a very small number of slaves were brought in while the US was a soverignty. Further, the slaves brought in to what is now the United States represents only a small percentage of the overall slaves brought in to the New World by the Crown, to feed it's sweet tooth.

What's more, the Dutch, French, Portugeuse and Spanish, along with a few others, likewise profited.

This is shown to illustrate who is LARGELY responsible for the bulk of the slave trade. Perhaps Great Britain owes us and a few others some money and an apology. I wonder how many Brits are familiar with that part of their history?

 

[7starmantis]

Good points. It all goes back to WHY we are expecting or demanding an apology.

Also, since the U.S. Government has done so much to abolish slavery, lets make those current citizens who have at least 1/16 blood relation to any race that may heve been enslaved also offer a public show of gratitude to the U.S. Government. Everyone can see how absurd that notion is, but for some reason hold to the earlier notion :idunno:

7sm

 

[mantis]

In case you haven't heard, my friend, governments don't produce profits, ours produce deficits. If a company operated like most governments, they'd be bankrupt and their CEO's eating in a soup kitchen.

That you believe they ARE profit making is only an indication of how out of touch you apparently are.

Also if we're talking continuous institutions, such as governments, being liable, and if we are referring to financial liability as well, doesn't that make the British Crown the single MOST liable entity involved in the Slave Trade in the western hemisphere.

In fact, overwhelming majority of slaves brought to the area now called the US, were brought while it was a British holding. Importation of further slaves was abolished by congress in 1808, so only a very small number of slaves were brought in while the US was a soverignty. Further, the slaves brought in to what is now the United States represents only a small percentage of the overall slaves brought in to the New World by the Crown, to feed it's sweet tooth.

What's more, the Dutch, French, Portugeuse and Spanish, along with a few others, likewise profited.

This is shown to illustrate who is LARGELY responsible for the bulk of the slave trade. Perhaps Great Britain owes us and a few others some money and an apology. I wonder how many Brits are familiar with that part of their history?

sorry man
just couldnt help but laugh at that one
yah, if corporations run like the govt then corporations will go bankrupt BUT their CEOs will only get richer!
anyway, this isnt the point of this thread!

 

[sgtmac_46]

Good points. It all goes back to WHY we are expecting or demanding an apology.

Also, since the U.S. Government has done so much to abolish slavery, lets make those current citizens who have at least 1/16 blood relation to any race that may heve been enslaved also offer a public show of gratitude to the U.S. Government. Everyone can see how absurd that notion is, but for some reason hold to the earlier notion :idunno:

7sm

Oh, yeah, it's pretty clear why certain individuals want 'an apology'. In court that's an acknowledgement of guilt and, therefore, an acknowledgement of responsibility. The first step toward demanding compensation and damages.

Heck, if we had signed on to the Hague, they'd have probably already filed a complaint there. The International Court would probably have filed. Ironic, however, that the Dutch themselves were among the biggest slave traders, that probably wouldn't get mentioned.

 

[mantis]

Oh, yeah, it's pretty clear why certain individuals want 'an apology'. In court that's an acknowledgement of guilt and, therefore, an acknowledgement of responsibility. The first step toward demanding compensation and damages.

oh, so you guys think the blacks or indians want an apology go end up getting some compensation?!
i think the japanese asked for an apology because it was a matter of dignity, the same with middle eastern and islamic organizations currently. and if you go back to history books around the ww2 era you will realize that not even one japanese person accepted any money offered by the government when the apology happend, right?
btw, after this thread im going to get a new bumper sticker that says UNITED WE STAND

 

[sgtmac_46]

oh, so you guys think the blacks or indians want an apology go end up getting some compensation?!
i think the japanese asked for an apology because it was a matter of dignity, the same with middle eastern and islamic organizations currently. and if you go back to history books around the ww2 era you will realize that not even one japanese person accepted any money offered by the government when the apology happend, right?
btw, after this thread im going to get a new bumper sticker that says UNITED WE STAND

Yours might be more accurate to read 'Divide and Bicker'.

The Japanese analogy is fallacious, and has little bearing with an apology for 160 year old + acts.

Moreover, you've yet to make even the most remote case how an apology will do anything but HARM. I, however, have made case after case, which it is obvious you don't even want to discuss, that an apology is harmful, as it presumes guilt, where no one today IS, and further reinforces a cultural crutch that is the CORE problem anyway.

 

[Don Roley]

oh, so you guys think the blacks or indians want an apology go end up getting some compensation?!

You have convinced me of that with what you have posted here. I commented on it in post #130.

 

[mantis]

Yours should read 'Divide and Bicker'.

The Japanese analogy is fallacious, and has little bearing with an apology for 160 year old + acts.

Moreover, you've yet to make even the most remote case how an apology will do anything but HARM. I, however, have made case after case, which it is obvious you don't even want to discuss, that an apology is harmful, as it presumes guilt, where no one today IS, and further reinforces a cultural crutch that is the CORE problem anyway.

at this point i believe a formal apology, or an act to end racism is more harmful than anything else.
yes, this particular thread taught me things i never expected before. you see, when i hear the "united we stand" stuff, and hear politicians talk about democracy and the "american values" i usually believe that stuff. i dont anymore!
instead i should always keep in mind the red indian history, the japanese, the blacks, and now the middle eastern. this says truth about "america"

i really mean no offense, but knowing this, i think, is better than denying it. maybe later generations will do something about it