Black Belt Boot Camp

[Wing Woo Gar]

Obviously. But that is how life works.

Ok, so I assume you are in your 40s. I assume you have family and a spouse and or kids in their teens/20s. I assume you have a full time employment etc. Are you able to do this? I know you likely already have the skills that would be taught in this boot camp. But if you had no martial arts experience, but you did have all the other aforementioned constraints of life, what would be your expectations or goals? It seems like a potentially viable way to get new students of measurable quality. What does the average regular student at your gym pay per month for training? Considering the 1200.00 price of boot camp, which do you believe would yield better results for the money vs time? Would you expect that an equal amount of regular student training time equal in price would yield the same results in skill, student retention, satisfaction, injury attrition rates, etc? I really don’t have any bias here but it is an interesting question about where the optimal intensity for training overall. Where that is for a beginner may differ significantly from the experienced and likewise those who possess a a high level of fitness regardless of martial arts experience.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, so I assume you are in your 40s. I assume you have family and a spouse and or kids in their teens/20s. I assume you have a full time employment etc. Are you able to do this? I know you likely already have the skills that would be taught in this boot camp. But if you had no martial arts experience, but you did have all the other aforementioned constraints of life, what would be your expectations or goals? It seems like a potentially viable way to get new students of measurable quality. What does the average regular student at your gym pay per month for training? Considering the 1200.00 price of boot camp, which do you believe would yield better results for the money vs time? Would you expect that an equal amount of regular student training time equal in price would yield the same results in skill, student retention, satisfaction, injury attrition rates, etc? I really don’t have any bias here but it is an interesting question about where the optimal intensity for training overall. Where that is for a beginner may differ significantly from the experienced and likewise those who possess a a high level of fitness regardless of martial arts experience.

Yes you could just join a class and put the effort in and get the same results. And that is cheaper.

But people don't always do that. And for them there is a 12 week boot camp.

The trade off is what you give back to the club. Because I have spent years helping the club out. My coaches would put a 12 week camp together for me for nothing. Other people in the club would donate their time to run sprints or hold pads or spar. I believe there is even a fund to pay for some accommodation. I may even get a free t shirt with my name on it.


But. I am not turning up for 12 weeks and then disappearing again.

 

[drop bear]

Ok, so I assume you are in your 40s. I assume you have family and a spouse and or kids in their teens/20s. I assume you have a full time employment etc. Are you able to do this? I know you likely already have the skills that would be taught in this boot camp. But if you had no martial arts experience, but you did have all the other aforementioned constraints of life, what would be your expectations or goals? It seems like a potentially viable way to get new students of measurable quality. What does the average regular student at your gym pay per month for training? Considering the 1200.00 price of boot camp, which do you believe would yield better results for the money vs time? Would you expect that an equal amount of regular student training time equal in price would yield the same results in skill, student retention, satisfaction, injury attrition rates, etc? I really don’t have any bias here but it is an interesting question about where the optimal intensity for training overall. Where that is for a beginner may differ significantly from the experienced and likewise those who possess a a high level of fitness regardless of martial arts experience.

And yes. I could do this.

We recently had 3 guys compete in the masters boxing. One of them for an Australian title.

And he put in a full camp on top of his full time job.

Otherwise we have run a couple of these before with some very impressive results. Guys went from no experience, super flinchy super uncoordinated to going 3 times 2 minute rounds in a public promotion against real fighters from other gyms.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

And yes. I could do this.

We recently had 3 guys compete in the masters boxing. One of them for an Australian title.

And he put in a full camp on top of his full time job.

Otherwise we have run a couple of these before with some very impressive results. Guys went from no experience, super flinchy super uncoordinated to going 3 times 2 minute rounds in a public promotion against real fighters from other gyms.

So all other things being equal, which method is better?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Unless fighting skill, or some other skill, is the entire point. Right? What’s the point of the 12 week program? Well it really depends, doesn’t it? You guys are applying all kinds of… I hate to use the word, but arbitrary standards to a program we know little about. Of course there are some things that can’t be taught in 12 weeks.

That said, I bet you can teach a lot more in 12 weeks than most people believe. 12 weeks is about how long college classes last in some places. You can learn and process a heck of a lot in that time, given appropriate structure and motivation.

Agreed. If the point of the 12-week program is building fighting skill as quickly as possible, it's definitely possible - if the student can maintain the pace - to build more fighting skill than many BB's have, since that's the focus. But then it wouldn't be useful to compare them to BB who were trained with a broader focus.

And you are correct that you can get through a lot of information in 12 weeks, but most college students don't walk away from a single class with much depth of understanding - that tends to come over the course of several classes. And even then, that class tends to have a good bit of mental homework (additional reading, etc.).

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The guy training twice a week can get injured as well.

True, but not equivalent. The harder physical focus in that kind of 12-week program puts more strain on the body, and if the body isn't ready for it, is more likely to lead to injury than a more gradual program.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

According to this it makes them better than a shodan.

At one metric. Which isn't typically the only (or even the primary) metric for promotion to shodan.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Competent enough for the nation to entrust them with its very existence. Even if I were to say "minimally competent," is it not generally agreed upon (outside of BJJ) that that's what 1st dan is supposed to be?

Not really. We don't expect the new recruit, fresh out of bootcamp, to be defending us alone. We entrust military security to the officers who run the military. They entrust a part of that job to the least experienced.

As for "minimally competent", that depends upon the style. I think that's true in some cases.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Look at all the things that I mentioned are learned in actual boot camp. When you add in the follow-on training, the multi-million dollar equipment that they're being trained to use. You're not learning how to use multi-million dollar equipment in a dojo. Getting a black belt doesn't put you in a position to have 332 million people depending on you to defend their freedom.

The cost of a piece of equipment doesn't define the level of learning. It's pretty nonsensical to try to determine which is "more" when comparing learning two vastly different things.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By the way. It is generally 3hours in the morning and 3 at night. You can get plenty of rest.

There are people who do that pretty much permanently. And still hold down jobs.

Yeah, that's not an impossible schedule, at all. I did similar at times in my late 20's and early 30's if I wasn't traveling for a while. And I did that without the nutritional support your folks are getting, so they are probably recovering better and making more physical progress.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

So all other things being equal, which method is better?

I suspect, as with most things, it depends on your goals and priorities. If something like this had been available to me when I was traveling for business, I'd have been all over it, because it would have let me cram more into the uninterrupted times between projects. But 10 years later, my priorities were different, and I wouldn't have been interested. Today, even if I'd healed up from last years injury, I doubt my body would take the intensity I'd want to give. I'd have to slow it way down, so wouldn't get what I wanted out of it and would probably not go for it.

 

[drop bear]

At one metric. Which isn't typically the only (or even the primary) metric for promotion to shodan.

The metric is because the instructor thinks so. Which they aslo fulfill.

 

[Steve]

Agreed. If the point of the 12-week program is building fighting skill as quickly as possible, it's definitely possible - if the student can maintain the pace - to build more fighting skill than many BB's have, since that's the focus. But then it wouldn't be useful to compare them to BB who were trained with a broader focus.

And you are correct that you can get through a lot of information in 12 weeks, but most college students don't walk away from a single class with much depth of understanding - that tends to come over the course of several classes. And even then, that class tends to have a good bit of mental homework (additional reading, etc.).

Sure. That’s right. What I was getting at is that if uij think about it, college is basically a series of these intensive programs. And it works pretty well.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

The metric is because the instructor thinks so. Which they aslo fulfill.

It’s usually a bit more defined than just “think so”.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

it's definitely possible - if the student can maintain the pace - to build more fighting skill than many BB's have, since that's the focus.

That's a good point.

From white to black belt, I've had injuries to hamstrings, toes, fingers,and an Achilles tendon.

To be able to do the course from start to finish, I'd have to be in "fighting shape" right from the beginning, be lucky,and be training only with good students (who won't hit me extremities in unexpected ways).

 

[drop bear]

It’s usually a bit more defined than just “think so”.

Then define it and we can make a realistic comparison.

 

[Steve]

At one metric. Which isn't typically the only (or even the primary) metric for promotion to shodan.

This is an interesting point. Highlights the two broad groups of people who train in martial arts. There are those who are looking for some practical skill development, and through the training may develop ancillary skills and positive traits (eg, work ethic, resilience).

And the other camp is there primarily to become a better person, and through the training might learn some practical skill.

that said, once again thinking about the military boot camp model, you can see a lot of growth of character in 12 weeks, if the program is well designed and run.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's a good point.

From white to black belt, I've had injuries to hamstrings, toes, fingers,and an Achilles tendon.

To be able to do the course from start to finish, I'd have to be in "fighting shape" right from the beginning, be lucky,and be training only with good students (who won't hit me extremities in unexpected ways).

Yeah, I’d probably have been capable of it in my 20’s to mid-30’s. Hell, I recovered from knee surgery in about 4 weeks back then. But after that, my ability to do this without advance prep goes down on a steady slope.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Then define it and we can make a realistic comparison.

It’s defined by the testing authority (usually the instructor and an associate), so there’s no single measure. I could give mine, but it’d be irrelevant to the larger discussion.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is an interesting point. Highlights the two broad groups of people who train in martial arts. There are those who are looking for some practical skill development, and through the training may develop ancillary skills and positive traits (eg, work ethic, resilience).

And the other camp is there primarily to become a better person, and through the training might learn some practical skill.

that said, once again thinking about the military boot camp model, you can see a lot of growth of character in 12 weeks, if the program is well designed and run.

Agreed! And there’s quite a bit within that other area beyond just becoming a better person. For instance, my students had to demonstrate competence in and comprehension of aiki principles. Those aren’t necessary for fighting, so it’s entirely possible to be a better fighter than them, but not qualify for a BB in NGA.

A vaguely appropriate analogy would be someone who is an excellent boxer. They’d possibly be better fighters than many BJJ folks, but that doesn’t make them equivalent in any way that matters for BJJ rank.