Black Belt/Black eye.

[Nightingale]

MT MOD NOTE:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Thanks much!

-Nightingale
MT Moderator

 

[Touch Of Death]

MT MOD NOTE:

Please keep the discussion polite and respectful.

Thanks much!

-Nightingale
MT Moderator

I think the choice of words for some of these posts are far more damning than anything I could retort so I have no proplem bowing out. Thanks for the discussion.
Sean

 

[7starmantis]

7sm,

Can I qualify this?

At one time they were a good fighter?

Have you ever ahd the pleasure or priviledge to work with an oldtimer who ahs been there, and is not in the physical capability to step out onto the matts with 280 + lbs gorilla? Yet this Oldtimer knows when you move wrong by your motion and by his feeling your motion. Would this person's experience then no longer count?

First I would like to thank you for your respectful attitude in addressing these issues, it shows your ture colors.

You have a point, there is much to be learned from an older fighter who once knew how to fight. A young woman not knowing how to fight isn't exactly the same scenario however.

Now this is going to be hard taken, but I have had the opportunity to work with many "old timers" and their ability far exceeded any of the 280lb gorrillas they were tossing around the room. Master Henry Chung is in his sixties and had a stroke paralyzing his left side entirely. Having spent just one year recovering from that, his speed, precision, accuracy, and skill was far above any I have personally come in contact with. In his sixties after a paralyzing stroke, he still had the ability to throw at will the "muscle head" Maist who had trained MA their entire lifes. So, just age doesn't stop someone from being a good fighter. I personally worked with him and I can attest to his skill.

7sm

 

[Makalakumu]

I attended class with my instructor who trained with TT Liang. I was a boy and Mr. Liang was in his 80s. There were mats encircling the basement of the house that he ran his studio out of. It didn't matter who it was, this smallish 80 year old man had everyone flying. There was no doubt in my mind that he could fight and fight well at his age.

As far as the other discussion goes...people are arguing over whether or not an instructor has to be a good fighter. I think we all agree that, yes, the instructor should be able to fight, but what constitutes a good fighter?

Black Bear posted an interesting comment about the straight blast gym. Instructors must go to the mat with anyone who asks. When I trained hard in MMA, I would have taken that offer to practice my skills. I was always looking for someone to "practice" with. If I had defeated that instructor, does that mean his not a good fighter? Does it mean that person has nothing they could teach me?

Once, I defeated my instructor in a sparring match. Does that mean he is now my student? See how this gets absurd really quick?

upnorthkyosa

 

[Ceicei]

Once, I defeated my instructor in a sparring match. Does that mean he is now my student? See how this gets absurd really quick?

upnorthkyosa

Yes, it does get absurd quickly. Instructors are human and may have an off day.... That doesn't make them any less qualified. That point has already been made earlier in this thread.

Perhaps on another day, the instructor under debate in this thread might have done better and never got the black eye. I suggest the person (DarkIntruder) who gave him the black eye return back just to apologize. This would simply show courtesy and try to foster good-will among martial artists.

- Ceicei

 

[Cryozombie]

The wealth of info she could provide isn't worth much if she cant apply it herself. I don't really know how to explain this anymore than I allready have, to teach fighting you have to be a fighter. I mean, in my schooling as a physical therapist who do they have teaching us? Its physical therapist who know how to apply the knowledge they are teaching us. knowledge of how something should be and knowledge of actually doing it are two completely different things.
7sm

I'm just curious, does this mean, that a book on Martial Arts is no good to learn from? The book cannot perform any techniques, But has a lot of knowlage... So, say you were a student of JKD, should you ignore the Tao of JKD because it cannot fight, so you cannot learn from it?

The reason I ask, is because if learning some things from a book is ok, then why couldnt an instructor teach you somthing they cannot do? If a Higher ranking BB is in a wheelchair and cannot walk, can they not correct the technical aspects of your kicks? :idunno:

Just food for thought.

 

[Black Bear]

Remember, NO ONE said that you have to be able to beat someone to be able to teach them. That's a HUGE unwarranted leap in logic. No wonder it leads to absurdities. Only problem is... it's a strawman.

What WAS as said was that an MA instructor has to know how to fight.

Likewise, in the SBG community, an instructor doesn't lose face if he taps. But since they're MMA oriented, they generally hold out pretty good in single sportive combat.

 

[Black Bear]

I'm just curious, does this mean, that a book on Martial Arts is no good to learn from? The book cannot perform any techniques, But has a lot of knowlage... So, say you were a student of JKD, should you ignore the Tao of JKD because it cannot fight, so you cannot learn from it?

The reason I ask, is because if learning some things from a book is ok, then why couldnt an instructor teach you somthing they cannot do? If a Higher ranking BB is in a wheelchair and cannot walk, can they not correct the technical aspects of your kicks? :idunno:

Just food for thought.

Non sequitur. We already went over the fact that if a guy possessed the skills but can't do it do to a functional impairment, they still have some potential to coach and teach.

A book is a medium, not a subject, of communication. Books have a limited ability to enhance a person's ability at combat, just like the ex- champ in a wheelchair has a limited ability to teach me.

I don't see what's so difficult about this whole thing.

 

[Black Bear]

Clarification: my second-last post was addressed to Ceicei and upnorth.

 

[7starmantis]

I'm just curious, does this mean, that a book on Martial Arts is no good to learn from? The book cannot perform any techniques, But has a lot of knowlage... So, say you were a student of JKD, should you ignore the Tao of JKD because it cannot fight, so you cannot learn from it?

The reason I ask, is because if learning some things from a book is ok, then why couldnt an instructor teach you somthing they cannot do? If a Higher ranking BB is in a wheelchair and cannot walk, can they not correct the technical aspects of your kicks? :idunno:

Just food for thought.

I agree with Black Bear's comments on this, and I will try to go a bit further. The book, being a medium as it is, if written by someone who has no application to their techniques or lacks skill in doing what they are writing about, then yes, I would find that book useless.

7sm

 

[mliddy]

AMEN, AMEN, BROTHER! To say that someone is great at martial arts but can't fight is ridiculous! If they can't fight... what exactly is it that they're good AT? I heard Matt Thornton put it well. He said that combat athletes understand it perfectly well. No one would ever say "he's a superb boxer but he always gets knocked out" or "he's a great BJJ technician but he gets tapped every time he steps on the mat".

When you do prearranged patterns, anyone who's been doing it for awhile can look really good. But that means nothing.

As I think this comment may be related to the question I raised earlier about wether you need to be a good fighter to be a good teacher.

I think the confusion may be around the word good. Perhaps I should have said great. Let me have another go at the Tyson statement. How many fights has he won. Clearly enought to make him a great fighter. How many fights has Tyson's trainer won. Who knows, I have never heard of him in terms of a fighter, but I am sure I would prefer him as a coach to Tyson.

Teaching requires the ability to make people understand concepts and applications. Often, when the application of techniques comes naturally to you, as it does with a lot of great fighters, you are less able to assist people with no idea. Consider the classic stereotype fighter who can hit hard and lift heavy things, but finds it difficult to string together a sentence . Conversely if you have had to work really hard to improve on technique because it was difficult for you, you are sometimes in a better position to help others understand. You may still get slapped around by someone twenty years younger with natural quickness and ability, but tha doesn't mean you are a bad teacher.

I never meant to say you can't be a good instuctor and a bad fighter, but I do mean to say that being a great fighter does not neccassarily make you a great, or even good instructor.

 

[Touch Of Death]

As I think this comment may be related to the question I raised earlier about wether you need to be a good fighter to be a good teacher.

I think the confusion may be around the word good. Perhaps I should have said great. Let me have another go at the Tyson statement. How many fights has he won. Clearly enought to make him a great fighter. How many fights has Tyson's trainer won. Who knows, I have never heard of him in terms of a fighter, but I am sure I would prefer him as a coach to Tyson.

Teaching requires the ability to make people understand concepts and applications. Often, when the application of techniques comes naturally to you, as it does with a lot of great fighters, you are less able to assist people with no idea. Consider the classic stereotype fighter who can hit hard and lift heavy things, but finds it difficult to string together a sentence . Conversely if you have had to work really hard to improve on technique because it was difficult for you, you are sometimes in a better position to help others understand. You may still get slapped around by someone twenty years younger with natural quickness and ability, but that doesn't mean you are a bad teacher.

I never meant to say you can't be a good instuctor and a bad fighter, but I do mean to say that being a great fighter does not neccassarily make you a great, or even good instructor.

I agree. a teacher is someone who conveys information and a good teacher is one who can reach people that have any number of learning obstacles self imposed or otherwise. If the first thing you do when you walk in a studio and look for all the Grand Champion sparring trophies, that is a self imposed learning disability.
Sean

 

[Makalakumu]

Remember, NO ONE said that you have to be able to beat someone to be able to teach them. That's a HUGE unwarranted leap in logic. No wonder it leads to absurdities. Only problem is... it's a strawman.

What WAS as said was that an MA instructor has to know how to fight.

Likewise, in the SBG community, an instructor doesn't lose face if he taps. But since they're MMA oriented, they generally hold out pretty good in single sportive combat.

Nope. You pretty much said that they not only had to "know" how to fight, they had to perform. With this being clarified, it is NOT such a huge leap in logic to the absolutely absurd conclusion in which such positions always lead. This is not a charicature of your position, this IS the position you presented before all of the backpeddling.

Maybe this isn't something that can be so black and white.

upnorthkyosa

 

[Black Bear]

I did not backpedal, I did not contradict myself. Take a good look at what I've been saying.

I said that the guy should be able to fight. (Not much different, I'd say, than "knowing how to" fight.) The exception that I later acknowledged is that the guy has basically the ability to fight but due to some functional impairment he can't REALLY. In that case, he has some limitations but potentially can be an instructor despite lack of (presently observable) performance.

The absurd leap in logic is to say that the person should have to be able to beat someone else if they are to presume to teach them. That absolutely does not follow.

Read the posts. It shouldn't be that difficult to comprehend.

 

[Black Bear]

The lack of verbal comprehension abilities in some of the people here angrifies me!

 

[7starmantis]

The bottom line is that you can not teach what you do not know.

What else is there? If you cannot apply your technique to actual fighting, you can't teach how to fight, plain and simple. What is all the arguing about?

7sm

 

[Touch Of Death]

The bottom line is that you can not teach what you do not know.

What else is there? If you cannot apply your technique to actual fighting, you can't teach how to fight, plain and simple. What is all the arguing about?

7sm

Its like saying you can't teach sword techs if you have never chopped someone up. Logic should be affirmation enough, but for some it is not. It doesn't take a champion to tell you your elbows arent anchored or that you are telegraphing certain moves. I think if a person is looking for reasons to ignore the words of another he will find one. This thread seems to hit close to home for some. I wonder why... just kidding. :uhyeah:
Sean

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Admin Note:

Thread locked pending Administrative Review

 

[Seig]

I am reopening this thread now. Keep it polite and respectfull.
Seig
MT Admin

 

[D.Cobb]

With regard to needing to know how to fight, to be able to teach, haven't you ever heard the saying, "Those who can do. Those who can't teach!"?

I know of at least one great kickboxer, he was technically brilliant, whose students cant fight that well. He was good, but doesn't have the ability to pass on the knowledge to his students.
--Dave