Black Belt/Black eye.

[7starmantis]

I have to disagree. You do qualify with True beginner. What is a true beginner. Does bouncing and street figthing count? For if not, then a person could come into anyones' club and get in a shot or two on just about anyone on any given day.

What qualifies as a head instructor? Years of training ? or Rank?

Just because a person opens a club with a black belt they are not untouchable.

A true beginner is someone without years of extensive training behind them. Thats all I use the term to mean. The rules shouldn't matter, the instructor should be skilled enough to win using his rules. I agree that not enough information was given, it could have been a chi sou practice, but if it was sparring as mentioned, the instructor is lacking skill enough to win using his rules.

What does qualify as a head instructor? I'm asking you guys. To me, a head instructor should be someone with enough skill to win using "his/her" methods.

I personally don't think a black belt is qualification enough to open a school, but I'm in the vass minority with that opinion.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

To establish the terms of the sparring match ahead of time... is a good thing.

I learned this years ago when I was in TMA and sparred a JKDC guy at the university. He elbowed me in the face and dropped me with a knee to the groin. We hadn't ironed out the "rules" ahead of time. However, he was still a jackass.

If this instructor didn't set the rules up ahead of time, he's a negligent moron. If he did, and you stepped outside of them, then you did a "bad". Still, the fact that he got flustered like that suggests to me that he's not got his stuff together, and his "image" as a martial arts hotshot was threatened by what was going on.

 

[7starmantis]

Are you ruling out a good teacher who is not a good fighter?

If they are teaching fighting, then yes. You cannot teach something you are not good at. The story was that he was teaching sparring, if your not a good fighter you can't teach fighting.

Personally I don't agree with the belief that there can be a good MA teacher who is a bad fighter. I know, I know, let the flames begin. How can you be a good MA instructor if you don't understand the concepts of the MA?

JMHO,
7sm

 

[RHD]

Instructor couldn't handle you in sparring?
Well,
(sigh)
All political correctness and psuedopsychologicalphilosophy aside...
Look for another teacher. Of course ther are those who will lament that fighting is only a small part of martial arts, but I say a teacher of a martial art ought to be able to fight and not hide behind rules. That's not to say that they will be untouchable, but if you can easily overcome your instructor (granted your teacher is not elderly) then you should move on to the next level whatever it may be.
Mike
:jaws:

 

[Black Bear]

A true beginner is someone without years of extensive training behind them. Thats all I use the term to mean. The rules shouldn't matter, the instructor should be skilled enough to win using his rules. I agree that not enough information was given, it could have been a chi sou practice, but if it was sparring as mentioned, the instructor is lacking skill enough to win using his rules.

What does qualify as a head instructor? I'm asking you guys. To me, a head instructor should be someone with enough skill to win using "his/her" methods.

I personally don't think a black belt is qualification enough to open a school, but I'm in the vass minority with that opinion.

Like some of the other things we've discussed, "definition of a martial art", etc. I take the pragmatic road on this matter. Most MT forumites live in "free countries". Anyone, anyone at all, has the right to open a school. If they do, they are de facto a head instructor, whether you or I or the MT Grand Poobah Council thinks so or not. The qualification of opening a school, or being a head instructor, is simply whatever The Market will accept. (If a leader has no followers, he is just a guy going for a walk.) It's just that they suck is all, and people should be warned away. But guess what--plenty of martial art schools suck. I would agree with 7*m though that not just any black belt "ought" to open their own school. But then, a black belt means nothing at all to me.

 

[Black Bear]

If they are teaching fighting, then yes. You cannot teach something you are not good at. The story was that he was teaching sparring, if your not a good fighter you can't teach fighting.

Personally I don't agree with the belief that there can be a good MA teacher who is a bad fighter. I know, I know, let the flames begin. How can you be a good MA instructor if you don't understand the concepts of the MA?

JMHO,
7sm

AMEN, AMEN, BROTHER! To say that someone is great at martial arts but can't fight is ridiculous! If they can't fight... what exactly is it that they're good AT? I heard Matt Thornton put it well. He said that combat athletes understand it perfectly well. No one would ever say "he's a superb boxer but he always gets knocked out" or "he's a great BJJ technician but he gets tapped every time he steps on the mat".

When you do prearranged patterns, anyone who's been doing it for awhile can look really good. But that means nothing.

 

[7starmantis]

Black Bear, you know, I think our training regiments may be closer than we think they are!! We seem to be agreeing alot more lately.

I'm flabergasted at how anyone can be a great MA teacher but a bad fighter!

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

Finally, I'd like to say that inviting a guest at one's studio to spar--then deliberately beating the crap out of them as some people on this thread have suggested, is the act of an puerile and profoundly insecure individual (probably a guy with a very small penis). Oh, but you won't find anyone like THAT in the MA world.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

Thanks but our school was just another neighborhood martial arts school.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

After reading this, I certainly respect those BB from your school! Dem Chicago people are bad, and to deal with those thugs, even badder! :asian:

 

[RCastillo]

Thanks but our school was just another neighborhood martial arts school.

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Must be some good quality people, and instruction there! :asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Black Bear, you know, I think our training regiments may be closer than we think they are!! We seem to be agreeing alot more lately.

I'm flabergasted at how anyone can be a great MA teacher but a bad fighter!

7sm

Lets use an hypothetical 100lb female Black belt from your system. Why does she have to be able to beat you up to tell you how your forms could be better? What is wrong with the wealth of info she could provide you? My instructors wife fits this profile. I respect anything she might say, but if I tag her with a right cross she is done. By the way she does run her own school. Give me one "good" reason it should be closed down.
Sean

 

[Black Bear]

"Lets use an hypothetical 100lb female Black belt from your system. Why does she have to be able to beat you up to tell you how your forms could be better?"
Huh? Non sequitur, man. First off, I don't have "forms" so I'm not sure what this crazy woman would be talking about. Second, if she doesn't have any genuine ability in applying the skills in the forms in fluid combat against a resisting opponent, then sure 'nuff she's got nothing to say to me about how my *ahem* "forms" could be any better. What after all is the value of the form if it doesn't enhance my street survivability?

"What is wrong with the wealth of info she could provide you? My instructors wife fits this profile. I respect anything she might say, but if I tag her with a right cross she is done."
I'm sure she would be. Since she's a teacher, I should hope that she shouldn't be too easy to tag. Otherwise, maybe she doesn't have all that much to say to me about fighting. The bottom line remains that her qualification to teach is strictly a function of her understanding of, and skill at, combat.

"By the way she does run her own school. Give me one "good" reason it should be closed down."
Why should I? I don't believe it should. Like I said, The Market dictates, not me, not 7*m, not the MT Council of Learned Elders. Your instructor's wife can do what she pleases, I don't know her. Next time, genius boy, read the thread before you post, and start talking some sense.

 

[elcajon555]

When someone is invited into a different school to train can bring up a bunch of problems, including echos and having to prove yourself and your school, and because of that people are more likely to get hurt. First of all did the new school know you had trained elsewhere. I believe the first mistake was sparring, even if you had previous training, you shouldn;t go into a new envirnoment and spar, that is just bad planning. As for rules of sparring, before the fight even begins the rules should be known. Now it sounded like you weren't following the rules because you were unfamilar with that the of fighting, that again is not your fault, but the instructor who sparred you. Now the instructor should not have recieved a black eye from you no matter what, that just proves that he isn;t good at fighting and wouldn;t be a good teacher and lost face as a teacher. Even if you were not following the rules he should have been able to handle it, even if that meant him not following the "rules". Now I am not talking about the instructor kicking the crap out of someone new that came in, that would be worse then him getting a black eye. I am talking about the more passive agressiveness, for starters not getting hit, I mean he should not have gotten, that is the most important thing in a fight. Furthermore he should have found a way to control it, even if that meant getting you in a joint lock or submission hold, with control. I believe the instructor was mad that you gave him a black eye, but I also think it was egually mad at himself, for allowing it to happen, and not being as good as he thought he was. It was probably for the best that were not welcomed back, because the instructor wasn't that great and you probably wouldn;'t have learned alot.

 

[Touch Of Death]

"Lets use an hypothetical 100lb female Black belt from your system. Why does she have to be able to beat you up to tell you how your forms could be better?"
Huh? Non sequitur, man. First off, I don't have "forms" so I'm not sure what this crazy woman would be talking about. Second, if she doesn't have any genuine ability in applying the skills in the forms in fluid combat against a resisting opponent, then sure 'nuff she's got nothing to say to me about how my *ahem* "forms" could be any better. What after all is the value of the form if it doesn't enhance my street survivability?

"What is wrong with the wealth of info she could provide you? My instructors wife fits this profile. I respect anything she might say, but if I tag her with a right cross she is done."
I'm sure she would be. Since she's a teacher, I should hope that she shouldn't be too easy to tag. Otherwise, maybe she doesn't have all that much to say to me about fighting. The bottom line remains that her qualification to teach is strictly a function of her understanding of, and skill at, combat.

"By the way she does run her own school. Give me one "good" reason it should be closed down."
Why should I? I don't believe it should. Like I said, The Market dictates, not me, not 7*m, not the MT Council of Learned Elders. Your instructor's wife can do what she pleases, I don't know her. Next time, genius boy, read the thread before you post, and start talking some sense.

Since we are being so informal, perhaps I will refer to you as Boy for now on. Boy, I did read the thread, and the gist of it is some guy doesn't believe that an instructor has worth if he could beat that guy up. We don't know much about the situation but that is what we are talking about. I only refered to the next logical conclusion. This seems to threaten you somehow. Why is that? Oh, and Boy, I wasn't talking to you so why are you telling us about wheather or not you do forms? Was that part of the thread topic?
Sean :uhyeah:

 

[Seig]

Admin Note
Keep the discussion polite and respectfull.
-Seig-
-MT Admin-

 

[7starmantis]

Lets use an hypothetical 100lb female Black belt from your system. Why does she have to be able to beat you up to tell you how your forms could be better? What is wrong with the wealth of info she could provide you? My instructors wife fits this profile. I respect anything she might say, but if I tag her with a right cross she is done. By the way she does run her own school. Give me one "good" reason it should be closed down.
Sean

I think you were talking to me, so I'll respond accordingly. This is actually pretty close to home since one of our most advanced students is a 19 year old 105lb woman. I'm not saying she has to beat me up to tell me that my forms could be better, but what is the use in doing forms? Isn't it pure and simple application? If she can't perform the application to her forms then I don't think she does have anything to teach me. If I tag anyone of that stature, male or female, with a good right cross they will be done. The problem with that is, can you tag them with that deadly right cross? A fighters ability isn't contingent on how many psi they can take, its their ability to fight which includes not being hit as much as taking the hit.

The wealth of info she could provide isn't worth much if she cant apply it herself. I don't really know how to explain this anymore than I allready have, to teach fighting you have to be a fighter. I mean, in my schooling as a physical therapist who do they have teaching us? Its physical therapist who know how to apply the knowledge they are teaching us. knowledge of how something should be and knowledge of actually doing it are two completely different things.

I'm not saying her school should be shut down, I didn't say anything close to that, what in the world does that have to do with this thread? I will say this, if you could walk in and fight her and knock her out in one or two punches, then yes, maybe she should focus on some more training. But no one here is implying that anyones school should be shut down.

7sm

 

[Black Bear]

"Since we are being so informal, perhaps I will refer to you as Boy for now on."
Okay, as long as it makes you feel like a big man.

"Boy, I did read the thread, and the gist of it is some guy doesn't believe that an instructor has worth if he could beat that guy up."
Boy you're really conflating issues here. Has worth how, like, uh, gee, everyone's innate worth as a human being? Or fluid financial assets? Or, uh, what, eh? And beat what guy up? Anyone who happens to walk into the studio? Gee, Matt Thornton visited ours once to teach a seminar in town. I never saw my instructor fight him but I think the outcome would be a foregone conclusion. Let's just state it clearly. A MA instructor who can't fight--fight WELL--is a crappy MA instructor.

"We don't know much about the situation but that is what we are talking about. I only refered to the next logical conclusion. This seems to threaten you somehow. Why is that?"
Maybe the first thing to look at is where you get the inference that I'm threatened and why you are concerned about this. Bulverism alert here.

"Oh, and Boy, I wasn't talking to you so why are you telling us about wheather or not you do forms?"
Up yours ToD--I don't have to do what you say. I do stand squarely in 7*m's corner on this matter, much as I strongly disagree with him on matters of means. You brought up forms, I didn't. All I was saying is that the forms are irrelevant except to the degree that they enhance skills and attributes pertinent to the broader objective. I don't think you're one to go to great lengths to get good at the wrong thing, are you?

Use a little brainpower when you post, man--you DO have a little brain.

 

[Rich Parsons]

If they are teaching fighting, then yes. You cannot teach something you are not good at. The story was that he was teaching sparring, if your not a good fighter you can't teach fighting.

Personally I don't agree with the belief that there can be a good MA teacher who is a bad fighter. I know, I know, let the flames begin. How can you be a good MA instructor if you don't understand the concepts of the MA?

JMHO,
7sm

7sm,

Can I qualify this?

At one time they were a good fighter?

Have you ever ahd the pleasure or priviledge to work with an oldtimer who ahs been there, and is not in the physical capability to step out onto the matts with 280 + lbs gorilla? Yet this Oldtimer knows when you move wrong by your motion and by his feeling your motion. Would this person's experience then no longer count?


And as for small penis syndrome, I have delt with this before, and I do not think it would have been in the case of the original post. It was a challenge, only the instructor did not know it was a challenge. After the first shot, it should have been stopped. Period. Why? Because someone was going to get hurt. The original poster was not there to learn he was there to fight. The insturctor was there to teach and instruct. How many of you have been in the place to have an ego come at you while your were instructing and claim they can get inside your defense or hit you. Then you give the challenger his lesson the hard way. You show them your were instructing and what would happen if you were not allowing the student a chance to move. If this is the beating the challenger was asking for then it was what they should have been expecting.

I had someone ask to just spar year ago. I was only a ranked colored belt. The instructor was not there as this was just free time for the students to train on their own.

I stopped everyone and explained to them, that I have lost as of that moment. Many of the other students could not understand? If I refused the offer to spar or challenge then I was considered a chicken. If I accepted, then and I lost then I was shown how mcuh I do nto know and how much better this other guy was and you should all go train wiht him. If I won he will raise a law suit against me for hurting him as he has not signed the wavers and been a student of this class.

I then turned to the challenger and asked him if he would wait until I could get everyone out and lock the doors. Just me and him. No Pads. No rules. The winner was the one who walked out conscious. The Challenger smiled and said nothing and got up and left. Maybe we both won as we both walked out? I still think I lost.

Now if the other senior colored student had been there, he would have accepted and then hurt him, just to show this guy what to expect from a real fight. As he would not have told him there were no rules. He would have even allowed the guy to pad up and then come at him.

Yet, you see, no matter what happens I have lost. Either I lose the physical confratation or I lose the mental, or I am acused of being a bully and having a small penis. There is no winning situation here.

Just my thoughts abd experience:asian:

 

[Jason Davis]

Why would he have held back? He wouldn't have. He would have seen that you could defend yourself and tried to beat you.

If he's an instructor he would have obviously tried to show you why his style is if not better at least comparable to yours. Right? If it wasn't why would you want to learn it.

He might know how to do some pretty forms or flashy kicks. That's more than likely it. If he was a competent fighter he wouldn't need to have any rules if he were sparring against someone who obviously knew what they were doing.

The truth is that alot of so called martial arts studios and instructors are a joke we like to call them "post karate kid". they paid their money to get a black belt and now they can teach so they do. thats all. It doesn't make them a good fighter. It doesn't even make them a good teacher. It actually makes them the equivalent of a cardio kickboxing instructor at your local gym, nothing more.

they say "this is how you do this" and then the student kind of does it a little bit and they say "good, that looks great" regaurdless of weather or not it is good technique or if it has any power. It's not their fault though, it's probobly how they were tought.

 

[Black Bear]

"Have you ever ahd the pleasure or priviledge to work with an oldtimer who ahs been there, and is not in the physical capability to step out onto the matts with 280 + lbs gorilla? Yet this Oldtimer knows when you move wrong by your motion and by his feeling your motion. Would this person's experience then no longer count?"
You have a point there. An older person whose ability to fight is seriously impaired by a health condition (probably musculoskeletal) is a good example. Now, I never said I expect a MA teacher to be able to "take all comers"--otherwise theoretically only one person in the entire world is entitled to teach MA. I did say that they should be able to fight.

"And as for small penis syndrome, I have delt with this before, and I do not think it would have been in the case of the original post."
I agree. I was not referring to the original post, but those who cavalierly said hey, come to my place and ask to spar and I'll kick your a$$, damn the consequences. As for the original post, none of us knows all the details of how it went down. I'm inclined to give both parties the benefit of the doubt and think it was a misunderstanding, a fender-bender of worldviews, until I'm otherwise convinced.

"I stopped everyone and explained to them, that I have lost as of that moment. Many of the other students could not understand? If I refused the offer to spar or challenge then I was considered a chicken. If I accepted, then and I lost then I was shown how mcuh I do nto know and how much better this other guy was and you should all go train wiht him. If I won he will raise a law suit against me for hurting him as he has not signed the wavers and been a student of this class."
Oh, I don't know about that. I think there are several ways you can go about graciously that doesn't make anyone lose face or expose either of you to a high risk of harm. It can be tricky sometimes though.

One of the items in the code of conduct of Straight Blast Gym is that the instructor will go to the mat with anyone who asks. Not decline, not offer unreasonable terms for the match, not pass him off to his beefy "enforcer" student and watch from the side of the mat with crossed arms. This is to make sure that "performance" stays at the centre of picture, and the instructor doesn't hide behind rank, authority, title, etc. I think that if you're going to adhere to such a code, you'd better have a lot of wisdom to deal with the possibility of dealing with a real nutjob. These are rare, you may never be visited by him in your entire career, but it's a possible occupational hazard.

"I then turned to the challenger and asked him if he would wait until I could get everyone out and lock the doors. Just me and him. No Pads. No rules. The winner was the one who walked out conscious. The Challenger smiled and said nothing and got up and left. Maybe we both won as we both walked out? I still think I lost."
Ouch. Well try not to think about it in terms of right or wrong, win or lose. Presented with the totality of circumstances, did you do the most conscientious, responsible thing that you could, with what you had and what you knew? If so, you needn't be annoyed with yourself. I recognize it's a tough spot to be in, and it really depends on your evaluation of the situation and the person in that moment (what's his reason for being here? just how "jack@$$" was he being? etc.), so I personally reserve specific judgement. You came away in one piece and that's the most important thing.