Underbelts Correcting A Black Belt

[Bill Mattocks]

I see the black belt ranks like the officer corps in the military. It is not the place of the enlisted troops to correct the officers, and especially not in public. A very experienced non-commissioned officer might at times have a private word with a younger, but senior, officer. Generally, such things are approached carefully and with a great deal of respect. A good officer will be glad to receive correct information in private so that they can make necessary changes, but without having their authority or leadership questioned in a public forum.

That does not mean officers are never wrong, or that enlisted are always wrong. It means that there are different modes of communication which are appropriate in different situations.

I have been shown two entirely different things by two black belts; one has corrected what I am pretty sure another showed me; then the first black belt has 're-corrected' me. Fortunately, I am not a kid; I am older than most of my black belt instructors. I can approach them in a respectful way, but still be able to ask them the question, "Are you sure this is correct, sensei? Sensei so-and-so showed me to do it this way and not that way, if I understood them correctly." I always say such things soto voce, off to the side, in private if possible. Generally, they will say something like "Oh, if sensei so-and-so said to do it that way, then go ahead and do it that way. I'll speak to him and we'll get this straightened out." What I do not do is refuse to do what I've been shown and insist that I know better. If the sensei doesn't want to hear my 'quiet' objection, I'll simply do it the way they tell me to do it; and get with the first sensei later to seek a clarification.

I never feel qualified to tell a black belt that they are wrong; mainly because I do not feel I could know something better than they do on the dojo floor.

I also keep in mind that at least in my dojo, all the black belts are volunteers who teach without pay. They are due my respect and courtesy no matter if they are right or wrong. No mistake they might make is worthy of my being disrespectful to them in public. They have earned respect; I have no problem giving it them.

 

[mastercole]

I understand that people here are from different systems, I will use my system, Kukkiwon Taekwondo, to describe how I deal with this situation.

I tell all the students that the standard technique of Taekwondo according to Kukkiwon, is found in Kibon-dongjak (basic motions) and Poomsae. All other techniques in Taekwondo outside of Kibon-dongjak and Poomsae can either be the standard found in Kibon-dongjak or Poomsae, or, they are variants. I also tell students when it comes to Kibon-dongjak and Poomsae if I, or other Dan holders show something different from Kukkiwon, follow the Kukkiwon, don't adopt my mistake.However, my presentation of all other areas of Taekwondo technique might differ from other Dan holders, because those are our preferred technique variants.

If my students are practicing directly with me, try my preferred variant. If they are practicing with another Dan holder, try their preferred variant. I specifically tell students NEVER contradict an instructor, from any school, or compare their teaching with that of another. Learn both variants.

But that does not even happen very much because my dojang's variant techniques tend not to stay the same for to long due the fact that my Dan holders train with the world's elite Taekwondoin on a regular basis, and I am quick to adopt a variant technique from an elite Taekwondoin.It also solves the problem of people coping ego's thinking their technique is correct. I always tell students that my technique is not necessarily correct or the best, but, I can point out the best, and introduce you to the best, that is my skill.

 

[Gemini]

There seems to be slightly different interpretations of the original question. While many have answered as a junior belt correcting a senior belt because they think the senior belt is wrong, I would agree with most posts addressing the question as such. It's a fairly common occurrence. I think every new student I've ever had has tried it at some time or another. I did too.

I took the original question much more literally as in fact the junior student is truly correct. I also envisioned the question to mean a much broader circumstance, while the original post indicates possibly a more specific instance. Regardless, I would also agree that there are certainly appropriate means by which any correction should be made. Beyond that, I think I covered my response in my initial post.

I understand that people here are from different systems, I will use my system, Kukkiwon Taekwondo, to describe how I deal with this situation...

...Learn both variants.

To your point mastecole, early on I was trained by two instructors, both Kukkiwon certified, but both from very different backgrounds and slight variances in their techniques. Because we were new students we took everything each said and did very literally, whereas they were probably very minor differences to the instructors. It was very confusing until I approached him about it, he just shrugged and said "When I want a demonstration, show me what I taught you. When he wants a demonstration, show him what he taught you." I see now the same thing even happening within generations of the Kukkiwon. Case in point, Koryo. When I was taught the double side kick, it was low/middle. Now I understand it's taught as middle/high. Neither is wrong, though they are variants of the same technique.

 

[Monroe]

I think you're overcomplicating matters with belts. If someone has been doing something longer than me, I don't presume to know it better than them. I'll ask questions if I've seen it done differently, but it's just silly to correct someone who knows more on the subject. My 7yo speaks french fluently and I don't. I don't correct her french but I'll ask questions if something doesn't sound right. If someone less experienced is correcting someone rudely with more experience, why take instruction seeing as they know it already?

Is it possible a less experienced person knows more? Yes. Is it likely? No.

 

[geezer]

In the groups I train with, we are based more on a "family" structure than a military one. Addressing the instructor is kind of like addressing your father at dinner (back in the days when families actually sat down to eat dinner together and we dads got some respect, anyway). Any question is fair game as long as it is asked at the appropriate time and with due respect. That same goes for "corrections". A while back, I was leading my students through a routine form. When we finished, one of my students said, "Excuse me, Sifu, did we skip the second section?" I addressed the whole class, "Did we?". Several others nodded. "Dang," I responded, "My bad! Sorry for the screw-up. Let's do it over right this time!" I complemented the student for paying attention and speaking up, and continued to training.

On the other hand, rude and authority-challenging questions are not tolerated. Just the way it is.

 

[Grenadier]

In my dojo, we have a hard and set rule, that there is only one sensei in charge on the floor at any given time. Even if a more senior instructor comes onto the floor as an observer, or even to participate in the class, it's still the sensei in charge's duty to make the corrections, nobody else's, unless he specifically designates someone to assist another.

Most of the time? A proficient instructor knows when to ask for help when it comes to designating others, and will not hesitate to do so when needed.

This applies to kyu grades as well, that unless they're specifically told to make specific corrections to another person's techniques, sequences, etc., then they aren't supposed to make the corrections on the floor.

It's not really much of a ranking issue. I've had some outstanding brown belts help out black belts who needed corrections to their ippon kumite, kata, etc., for various reasons. For example, if a certain black belt has been out of training for a while, and needs help getting his kata Kanku Dai back in order, then I would feel perfectly fine giving an experienced brown belt the go-ahead to help make corrections, if the brown belt has the qualifications to do so.

Sometimes, your best resources for teaching, are your own people.


Now, at a seminar? Again, I'll simply defer to the one in charge of the seminar. It's not my duty to correct others on the floor, regardless of ranking, unless the seminar instructor gives the go-ahead. Again, a good instructor will be able to see that some people are struggling with techniques, etc., and won't hesitate to give them qualified helpers.

 

[Buka]

As others have already said, "It depends on the circumstance". And, of course, there are exceptions to every rule. But where I come from there's an old saying, "Everybody has to be doing something when they die. If an underbelt wants to be correcting his teacher at that time, that's his choice."
(mostly kidding) (mostly)

 

[Black Belt Jedi]

To some extent a kyu belt can correct a black belt and give some advice, but not too much to a point where the kyu belt is telling what a black belt has to do. And in turn a black belt cannot be ego driven always saying "I'm always right." Like he or she is some sort of god-like person because a black belt can make mistakes while teaching things like kata or self-defences. We are all students in the Martial Arts and we should always be open minded as the great master Bruce Lee wanted it to be. It's been quite a few times that my students had to correct me or at least question how I am showing them for making a mistake on things that I teach.

 

[PatMunk]

But where I come from there's an old saying, "Everybody has to be doing something when they die. If an underbelt wants to be correcting his teacher at that time, that's his choice."
(mostly kidding) (mostly)

Now I like that .....

 

[shihansmurf]

After reading through the responses after I posted I feel like I should clarify my position.

I can't speak for anyother black belt or teacher here only myself, so..

Like a lot of things, the situation and circumstances surrounding the correction will heavily dictate the way I respond to a correction. I am just as fallable as anyone else. I also have a very relaxed atmosphere in my school and blet rank doesn't directly equate to authority.We seperate instructor status from belt rank. We have seperate tests for instructor certification and that status trumps belt rank. I don't run my school like military-lite. I get enough of that at work. My kids class is more structured and tightly controlled, but my adults are all treated like adults.

With the above being said, I am fine with being questioned about movements and even with being corrected by someone junior to myself, provided of course that they do so politely. I have been training shotokan for 28 years. I know a hell of a lot about my art but certainly not everything. I encourage questions and debate about the material. I want my students to fully understand the how and why of each movement, not just mimic my moves. This leads to occasional debates and disagreements. I'm fine with that.

How I am approached about it is the deciding factor in if I think its appropriate. Being rude, condescending, or arrogant with me is a sure fire way to get into an unpleasent conversation with me. Pointing out an error politely is acceptable.

There are only a few times I get unfriendly about it, such as:

1. Your "correction" shows a lack of understanding about basic concepts and principles that are inherent in the technique in question. I.E. "You bent your wrist towards the target putting your knuckles in lead on that back fist. You really should hit with the flat of your hand."

2 "In my old school, we did "X" move this way." Cool. We do things this way here.

3. "You're a big poo-poo head. Do it this way" That will end badly.

I have learned quite a lot over the years from having students question the material. I have been helped along by having students that were rather knowledgeable in sports medicine correct how I move based on their knowledge. If I maintained a don't point out the emperor is naked attitude, then I would have missed out on that.

I find it interesting that for all of the traditional arts that supposedly teach humility, there is a distinct lack of it displayed in regards to how we interact with our students. If we really internalized all of that perfection of character that, at least according to Funikoshi, we are supposed to, then why are we concerned with being corrected by our juniors? If anything, we probably shouldn't look down on them to the point that we dismiss their imput based on the fact that they don't get to tie as cool of a bit of fabric around their waists as we do.

Just a thought,
Mark