BJJ vs TKD...yep, let's kick the dead horse

[dancingalone]

The problem I have with TF's view point is the irony of it. He claims that TKD in its "purest" form came from a deadly combative art, but in fact by the time Shotokan was presented to the TKD pioneers it too had been watered down in order to teach it in the educational system of Japan.

Well, there's the rub. What makes one art supposedly more effective for self-defense than another? What's the difference between shotokan karate and its parent shorin-ryu karate? Most karate snobs in my circle would rate shorin-ryu as the 'better' art, but why so?

I truly doubt the Korean soldiers that fought in Vietnam practiced any of the esoterical bunkai found in shuri kata. Nor do I think they generated power in their strikes with spinal wave motion or percussive penatration, two of the key concepts within shorin-ryu. Nope, they likely used pure acceleration, hip twist, and shoulder turn. "Primitive" technique by comparison.

But they probably trained hard and could manifest 'intensity' and focus at a moment's notice. Think of breaking 3-4 boards with a single chop or punch or kick. Most of us here likely can do it too, but imagine that ferocity honed to a razor so a soldier can go from 0-90 mph in a second without thought or preparation. Now add that to a working knowledge of the body's weakpoints to target with your chop or punch. Scary stuff.

The truth is that even a punchy, kicky level of martial arts (something I would characterize sports karate or TKD as) can be very effective in the street if you have learned timing and you have explosive force in your strikes. Do you really need to have learned the arm lock and break in say kata seiunchin if you can simply put your fist through the back of someone's skull?

The same idea carries forth with judo (I don't know enough about BJJ to offer an educated comment). The throws in judo are generally taught in a safe fashion; you execute them so that your partner can breakfall successfully and disperse the shock even across his body. But a sufficiently skilled and aware judoka can transform something as innocent as a fireman's carry throw into a brain-busting move which would likely lead to death on a surface like concrete.

Judo and BJJ are sport arts since they meet the popular definition of a sport. Now you can choose to only play them at the fun and games level or with some modification and change in mindset you can make them into a set of skills that are decidedly more deadly.

 

[Sylo]

if you want to get extremely technical..

in some facets.. some would say that firearms can be considered a sport..

and they seem to be pretty deadly when used on the street.

 

[dancingalone]

It was pretty much a progression of taking me down, trying subs, and when he couldn't apply any subs, he just settled on wearing me out....and sure, you can sit there and argue all day long that if I had buddies, then he would have been "in trouble"...but I didn't have buddies with me, and I'm quite sure if I had, he would have handled the fight differently.

You must have pretty good natural instincts if you managed to avoid an armbar from a trained ground fighter. Or have you've done a bit of rolling yourself?

One of the best qualities about BJJ is that you have to be in great cardio shape to last in a BJJ class. Some strength is handy and probably even required too. Good physical fitness itself is a form of self-defense against disease, and in a fight being fit helps or you could even run away. Too often, schools teaching striking based arts don't focus enough on fitness.

 

[BrandonLucas]

You must have pretty good natural instincts if you managed to avoid an armbar from a trained ground fighter. Or have you've done a bit of rolling yourself?

One of the best qualities about BJJ is that you have to be in great cardio shape to last in a BJJ class. Some strength is handy and probably even required too. Good physical fitness itself is a form of self-defense against disease, and in a fight being fit helps or you could even run away. Too often, schools teaching striking based arts don't focus enough on fitness.

Actually, I think the only reason I was able to avoid the subs was that I was stronger than the other guy...I know enough not to let my arms or legs get caught out in the open...

But the problem I was having, like you're saying, is the cardio factor. I was really tired from being put down and having to get right back up again to try to attack or defend. While he may not have been able to "wrap me up", he was more used to the physicallity of the up and down aspect than I was, and was more able to keep his stamina than I was.

 

[Twin Fist]

WHY do i have the opinions I do about SD applications of grappling arts?

ok, from the top:

TWIN FIST'S RULES FOR EFFECTIVE SELF DEFENSE (tm) lol
​

1-avoid what you can avoid
2-when you cant avoid, take action with no hesitation
3-stay on your feet when you can, if you cant, do ANYTHING to get them to let go, and get back on your feet
4-dont stop till they drop
5-ALWAYS assume they have a friend behind you

now, those rules are broad and loose for a reason, real life has no rules, and adaptation is essential.

anything that violates these rules is outside the realm of "effective self defense"

now, i dont teach many joint locks. Why? Because i dont feel you can rely on them. joint locks work because of pain compliance. However, different people can handle different levels of pain. Therefore, relying on pain compliance is dangerous. So instead i focus on destruction.

I dont rely on chokes either. Why? they take both hands, they take too long, and while I am trying to choke them they are free to beat me about the head and shoulders. So instead i focus on destruction.

I dont go to the ground. Why? Multiple bad guys. Concrete equals road rash, broken bones and head stomps. Instead I focus on destruction.

joint locks bad
chokes bad
ground bad

ok, now what are the main elements of BJJ? thats right: joint locks, chokes, and ground work.

so, the vast majority of the BJJ techniques fall outside the realm of what I consider effective self defense.

same with judo

Now that being said, elements from grappling styles can be used effectivly.

Wanna slam someone to the ground? judo throws work really well for that. Just modify them so you dont go down too

Find yourself on ground? BJJ can help you escape to get back up.

So can jamming your finger in thier eye socket.

I havnt tried cocain, but do i have to to know it isnt for me? no not really. I just have to do the research to know it isnt a good idea.

I guess maybe the question I should be asking is exactly how is BJJ not reasonable for SD?

 

[dancingalone]

Twin Fist, I can see where you are coming from. You sound like an old school TKD guy and I greatly respect that. I would only offer the comment that locks don't have to used as a pain-compliant or arresting mode technique. They're versatile, so sure you can use them that way against your overly frisky uncle at the family reunion, but they can also be a pure disabling move. Kind of hard for someone to attack you further if you have broken their wrist or elbow, no?

 

[Twin Fist]

actually, i am a half TKD half Kenpo guy....

that said, i do teach joint/bone destruction.

bone breaks, joint hyper-extension, dislocation, etc

So yeah, i agree with you, I just dont RELY on those techniques.

 

[BrandonLucas]

WHY do i have the opinions I do about SD applications of grappling arts?

ok, from the top:

TWIN FIST'S RULES FOR EFFECTIVE SELF DEFENSE (tm) lol​

1-avoid what you can avoid
2-when you cant avoid, take action with no hesitation
3-stay on your feet when you can, if you cant, do ANYTHING to get them to let go, and get back on your feet
4-dont stop till they drop
5-ALWAYS assume they have a friend behind you

now, those rules are broad and loose for a reason, real life has no rules, and adaptation is essential.

anything that violates these rules is outside the realm of "effective self defense"

now, i dont teach many joint locks. Why? Because i dont feel you can rely on them. joint locks work because of pain compliance. However, different people can handle different levels of pain. Therefore, relying on pain compliance is dangerous. So instead i focus on destruction.

I dont rely on chokes either. Why? they take both hands, they take too long, and while I am trying to choke them they are free to beat me about the head and shoulders. So instead i focus on destruction.

I dont go to the ground. Why? Multiple bad guys. Concrete equals road rash, broken bones and head stomps. Instead I focus on destruction.

joint locks bad
chokes bad
ground bad

ok, now what are the main elements of BJJ? thats right: joint locks, chokes, and ground work.

so, the vast majority of the BJJ techniques fall outside the realm of what I consider effective self defense.

same with judo

Now that being said, elements from grappling styles can be used effectivly.

Wanna slam someone to the ground? judo throws work really well for that. Just modify them so you dont go down too

Find yourself on ground? BJJ can help you escape to get back up.

So can jamming your finger in thier eye socket.

I havnt tried cocain, but do i have to to know it isnt for me? no not really. I just have to do the research to know it isnt a good idea.

Ok...I can agree with what you're saying. But the key is that BJJ isn't going to work for you for SD applications. These are things that you abide by, and, for all intents and puroses, the list is a pretty good one.

And there are points that I think can be agreed on in the list. I agree that the list has to be loose to make room for unexpected variables.

I just think that one of the unexpected variables that's worth taking a look at is what happens when you just can't get back to your feet?

I can understand your argument that you don't think BJJ is effective for SD for you. But people fight differently. The BJJ guy I "scrapped" with didn't want to stay on the ground...he used the mentality of me trying to get back to my feet against me. It tired me out having to avoid takedowns and trying to deliver devestating attacks. BJJ worked for SD for the guy I scrapped...I wouldn't say either one of us technically "won" the match...we both finally just gave up.

I don't think it would be a waste of anyone's time to take BJJ as a SD art...as long as they have researched it, much like what you're talking about...and have decided that it's for them.

 

[Twin Fist]

fair enough

and thanks. I like to think I make sense sometimes at least.............LOL

 

[BrandonLucas]

actually, i am a half TKD half Kenpo guy....

that said, i do teach joint/bone destruction.

bone breaks, joint hyper-extension, dislocation, etc

So yeah, i agree with you, I just dont RELY on those techniques.

And to kind of reinforce some things....

There was a great example of a TKD guy getting subbed by an armbar last night on UFC...granted, the TKD guy was not impressive in the least...but his arm was broken in an armbar...a standard armbar, that is taught in BJJ.

If I can find a link of the fight, I'll post it so you can see what I'm talking about, but it really brings out what I'm talking about...it basically looked like a real fight...I didn't see where the rules would have limited either fighter...

If anyone else is able to find the link, please post it. I can't remember their names...

 

[BrandonLucas]

fair enough

and thanks. I like to think I make sense sometimes at least.............LOL

You do make sense...I can be slow at times...lol

 

[miguksaram]

Not quite

If you do the research, you will find that Funikoshi himself HATED the sport direction that his Shotokan was moving toward in the university system.

Choi didnt learn Shotokan from the University system however.

Plus, when TKD was founded, the techniques included were the ones most suited for self defense.

The system Rhee brought to the united states in 1958-1959 was self defense start to finish.

No..no..I'm not talking about the sport route it took. When it was introduced into the Japanese education system, it became "watered" down long before it went the way of the competition.

Where does Choi claim to learn it from? (Please don't tell me the japanese prison during a stint there as a POW)

I'm not saying what was brought by Rhee or any other pioneer for that matter was not SD, just probably not as deadly as you are making it out to be compared to the Shuri-te that Funakoshi originally learned.

 

[miguksaram]

Well, there's the rub. What makes one art supposedly more effective for self-defense than another? What's the difference between shotokan karate and its parent shorin-ryu karate? Most karate snobs in my circle would rate shorin-ryu as the 'better' art, but why so?

I truly doubt the Korean soldiers that fought in Vietnam practiced any of the esoterical bunkai found in shuri kata. Nor do I think they generated power in their strikes with spinal wave motion or percussive penatration, two of the key concepts within shorin-ryu. Nope, they likely used pure acceleration, hip twist, and shoulder turn. "Primitive" technique by comparison.

But they probably trained hard and could manifest 'intensity' and focus at a moment's notice. Think of breaking 3-4 boards with a single chop or punch or kick. Most of us here likely can do it too, but imagine that ferocity honed to a razor so a soldier can go from 0-90 mph in a second without thought or preparation. Now add that to a working knowledge of the body's weakpoints to target with your chop or punch. Scary stuff.

The truth is that even a punchy, kicky level of martial arts (something I would characterize sports karate or TKD as) can be very effective in the street if you have learned timing and you have explosive force in your strikes. Do you really need to have learned the arm lock and break in say kata seiunchin if you can simply put your fist through the back of someone's skull?

The same idea carries forth with judo (I don't know enough about BJJ to offer an educated comment). The throws in judo are generally taught in a safe fashion; you execute them so that your partner can breakfall successfully and disperse the shock even across his body. But a sufficiently skilled and aware judoka can transform something as innocent as a fireman's carry throw into a brain-busting move which would likely lead to death on a surface like concrete.

Judo and BJJ are sport arts since they meet the popular definition of a sport. Now you can choose to only play them at the fun and games level or with some modification and change in mindset you can make them into a set of skills that are decidedly more deadly.

I agree whole heartedly with this.

 

[Twin Fist]

compared to the original Shuri-te?

oh absolutely yes it had been watered down

but it was still a combat art, not a sport.

 

[Sukerkin]

I think you chaps have reached the effective core of this with your posts #87 and #88 :tup:.

For the 'record', my attitude as to what comprises SD techniques that work for me is almost identical to TF's but I do see quite clearly that everyone has their own way of fighting that they feel 'comfortable' with and to not train up in that fashion would be less optimal for them.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Nothing against BJJ, TKD or MMA or any other style but I keep reading the same things in multiple posts on the same subject

Things like "guarantee you’re going to the ground" or "95% of all fights go to the ground" (that has been used elsewhere many times on MT and other sites). And sometimes as low as 90% sometimes as high as 98%

Could someone please point me in the direction of a study that supports such claims?

 

[miguksaram]

compared to the original Shuri-te?

oh absolutely yes it had been watered down

but it was still a combat art, not a sport.

Right...eventually it stated to go the way of competition and watered down more. Just like judo did. Kano did start with hey let's make a game out of this. He saw flaws in what he was studying and remade it. Eventually he went the way of sport which watered it down.

 

[Twin Fist]

Could someone please point me in the direction of a study that supports such claims?

there wasnt one.

that started because the gracies used that claim to hype thier art back when they were just starting to get well known.

it's an outright lie, and most people know that now.

Actually, Loren Christiansen, a MA teacher and police officer put the number closer to 25% or lower based on his experiences as a cop.

 

[dancingalone]

Nothing against BJJ, TKD or MMA or any other style but I keep reading the same things in multiple posts on the same subject

Things like "guarantee you’re going to the ground" or "95% of all fights go to the ground" (that has been used elsewhere many times on MT and other sites). And sometimes as low as 90% sometimes as high as 98%

Could someone please point me in the direction of a study that supports such claims?

I doubt there's any such scientific study. Anecdotally, all the fights I have been in from grade school through high school were all fist fights. The one altercation I have been involved in since I became an adult ended with a wristlock takedown and that's only because I had been training it and I was the one doing it.

 

[BrandonLucas]

I doubt there's any such scientific study. Anecdotally, all the fights I have been in from grade school through high school were all fist fights. The one altercation I have been involved in since I became an adult ended with a wristlock takedown and that's only because I had been training it and I was the one doing it.

Yeah, the whole "study" of fights going to the ground isn't proven...but I've seen from experience that they can and do go to the ground, whether it's on purpose or someone slips.

I think it hapens more often on accident when the fights end up on the ground...I don't actually think most real fights have actual takedowns...from the fights I've seen in person, either one or the other, or sometimes both, fighters trip moving backward or forward and end up scuffling on the ground.

To me, that's where I think BJJ would be useful. If you end up in an encounter with someone larger than you that can keep you down if you happen to trip or get pulled down on accident, I think it would be useful to know how to handle yourself if the situation arises.

As far as percentages go, it's b.s. I don't see anyway to get actual percentages from the number of fights that would be an accurate number...fights happen all the time that people don't "document".