Bin Laden is dead

[Xue Sheng]

As to the terrorists, while the average grunt might be an uneducated shmuck, the guys doing logistics tend to be well educated, well connected and experts. Osama remember was a veteran guerrilla fighter who went toe to toe against the Soviets. Many of his 'core' are well trained as well.

Chess. Move here, watch there, listen there. Diversion, misinform, make a 'mistake', see what happens next. See who stops showing up at that cafe, who are the new faces at the other place, etc.

It has been reported that Osama Bin Laden had degrees in Civil Engineering and Public Administration, either way he was not uneducated

 

[granfire]

It has been reported that Osama Bin Laden had degrees in Civil Engineering and Public Administration, either way he was not uneducated

Leaders seldom are (I think he was also pretty rich)

 

[Xue Sheng]

(I think he was also pretty rich)

That would be an understatement


As to the heads of terrorist organizations and those who work under them.
If you were to look at an organizational chart of most terrorist groups you would see it as pretty compartmentalized. Terrorist cells generally have no idea as to the existence of any other cell and have little or no idea as to who is a member outside of their cell other than the head of the organization and the guy that gives them there orders who may or may not be over more than one cell. They have no idea who provides funding either. All this leads to making it very VERY difficult to shut down a terrorist organization.

 

[WC_lun]

Initial comments indicated he was. They've since changed the details, at least 2-3 times by my count.


As to treaties, since when does the US let a little thing like a treaty get in it's way? Just ask the Seneca, Sioux, Lakota and Apache what value the US puts on treaties.

Obama was not killed. Osama bin Laden was killed

Treaties are upheld when they are useful. If they are no longer considered useful, less than honorable men will decide they are also worthless.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Obama was not killed. Osama bin Laden was killed

Treaties are upheld when they are useful. If they are no longer considered useful, less than honorable men will decide they are also worthless.

I'd never wish harm on the President, no matter what he's done to my health care or tax bill.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The story of course, continues to change
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05/03/bin.laden.evolving.story/index.html?hpt=T1

 

[Tez3]

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. It's just that some folk are just not up to admitting that torture is still currently being utilised, or at the very least, sanctioned, by the Coalition forces, in places such as Poland, Egypt and even Gitmo.

Here is an excellent article on torture. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/#DefTor Apologies in advance for its length. :asian:

My comments weren't aimed at you but Yorkshirelad. I now know why he holds such antipathy to the UK and myself. The Troubles have cause much heartache and division over a long time, guess it will carry on for many years yet. Muslim terrorism is in it's infancy compared to Northern Ireland.

 

[billc]

So, President Obama sent his own roving band of assassins to invade a foreign country, without telling that country, they broke into a private home, without a search warrent, an arrest warrant, without the countries permits to carry pistols let alone assault rifles, destroyed private property, stole private property, shot one man to death, shot an unarmed woman to death, shot another unarmed woman in the leg, kidnapped over 20 people, and the guy they did this for, did not recieve his miranda rights or was allowed to consult with an attorney and had a bullet put through his brain. That is what happened, right? But thank god we didn't waterboard anyone. That would have been beyond the pale, and a strict violation of his human rights and our belief in our moral superiority.

With all the mental gymnastics some people go through, it must be difficult to really be happy that Osama was brough to justice.

 

[ganglian]

I'm not argueing at all that torture isn't being done in "the war on terror." I'm saying there has to be a line drawn on what you will and will not do. Our laws says torture is not to be done. No exceptions. if you torture, you are a criminal. It also doesn't take a perfect individual to not torture. it takes someone with a base knowledge of the difference between wrong and right and just a modecum of human decency. Stop pretending that torture is anything other than what it is.

Bob, per your quote in your point number 3, Obama was not killed, hiding behind a woman or otherwise.

he ordered the deaths of over 3000, it really doesnt matter how, it just matters that we got him. Done.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

and...I fixed my typo. LOL!

 

[shesulsa]

I am not disagreeing with what you are saying. It's just that some folk are just not up to admitting that torture is still currently being utilised, or at the very least, sanctioned, by the Coalition forces, in places such as Poland, Egypt and even Gitmo.

Here is an excellent article on torture. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/torture/#DefTor Apologies in advance for its length. :asian:

This has also been extensively revised since its initial publication in 2006 - and it's worth the time to read.

Since *some* of us weren't here when it was posted before ....

Mancow gets waterboarded - admits it's torture. (video included)

Christopher Hitchens gets waterboarded - admits it's torture (article). And here's the video:

[yt]4LPubUCJv58[/yt]

Oliver Hardy gets waterboarded - admits it's torture. (video included)

The very last sentence of Oliver Hardy's account of his experience says everything about torture:

I would have told my interrogator anything they wanted to hear to make it stop.

​

There are more, but ... well, it's pointless. Crap, why am I posting even this??

 

[billc]

Now you see why the three terrorists gave up all that valuable intelligence, including the code name of the courier who led us to Osama. Is it bad, sure it is, is it permanent, not even close. It gets info. without leaving the terrorist with permanent injury or even short term injury. After being waterboarded they can go and have tea and dates as they spill all their secrets. The C.I.A. can then go ahead and save innocent people from real torture that will leave permanent damage, if not lead to death, and prevent the deaths of many more innocent people. You know, after a terrorist attack, people are left maimed and mentally damaged by the event, no to mention the actual dead people. I have to think that that is the equivalent of real torture as well, wouldn't you?

 

[Empty Hands]

So the ends justify the means?

I thought you considered yourself a moral person? You would think so the way you go on and on about how immoral and awful the people who don't share your political views are.

 

[Tez3]

Now you see why the three terrorists gave up all that valuable intelligence, including the code name of the courier who led us to Osama. Is it bad, sure it is, is it permanent, not even close. It gets info. without leaving the terrorist with permanent injury or even short term injury. After being waterboarded they can go and have tea and dates as they spill all their secrets. The C.I.A. can then go ahead and save innocent people from real torture that will leave permanent damage, if not lead to death, and prevent the deaths of many more innocent people. You know, after a terrorist attack, people are left maimed and mentally damaged by the event, no to mention the actual dead people. I have to think that that is the equivalent of real torture as well, wouldn't you?

Taking any moral views out of the torture argument and making it a purely practical argument instead. I'm a member of the RAF Association, we have old members who were aircrew duing the last war who came down over enemy territory. Many were tortured by the Gestapo and they have said they would come out with anything and everything that came into their minds, often though the truth didn't come out. It was a matter of pride to them they they gave reams and reams of info to the Germans, none of it worth a penny. It actually helped them withstand the pain thinking up feasible sounding lies to tell, if they did say anything that was true it was mixed in with so much other stuff it was like hiding a tree in a forest.
There are much better ways to prise infomation out of people, I'm sure if you are of a mind too you can find accounts of very effective interrogators, none of whom used torture because of it's sheer clumsiness in revealing the truth.
Good intel is gathered snippet by snippet and then fitted like a jigsaw into a picture, you have good.. no superb analysts who know their subject inside out. You have informers, you have 'moles' you have bugging, you have surveillance etc etc all of this gives better intel than any tortured person.

We seem to have lost the knack of 'spying' effectively after the end of the Cold War and the satellite kids took over. We couldn't torture the Soviets but we certainly got good info on everything that went on.

 

[WC_lun]

I saw an interview with a gentleman once who was partially responsible for creating the program used by special ops units to resist torture if capured. I apologize, but I cannot remember his name. The information used to create the program was largely based upon the experiences of US and allied personel in WW II, Korea, and Vietnam. The overwhelming thing that was needed for accurate inteligence to be gathered was a basis of trust to be built between the interogator and the subject. He said that torture destroyed any such trust forever and therefor destroyed any chance of reliable information being garnered through such methods.

 

[yorkshirelad]

The ones that are obvious to anyone who's been here more then 30 days.

Again, what personal attacks?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Apparently denial is not just a river in Egypt

 

[billc]

let's see, three guys, the top leaders in al queda, were waterboarded. They were not permanently harmed, they were fine immediately after being water boarded, and they gave up vast amounts of intelligence, some of which led to the capture of Osama. Yeah, I'm okay with that. I wouldn't do it to american citizens or the regular citizens of foreign countries, I wouldn't do it to criminals captured in the states, or regular criminals in foreign countries. I would not do it to actual prisoners of war, or even the regular average nut job terrorist. The leaders, the guys in charge with intimate knowlege of the plans to kill thousands of innocent people, yeah, and I wouldn't have a problem with it.

Khalid Sheik Mohammed was water boarded for three reasons, all of which were needed to submit him. One, he was a leader in Al Queda, two he was not cooperating at all, and three, when asked about upcoming terror plots his response was "you will know when they happen," implying an imminent threat potential. He was not permanently harmed and did not suffer after the 3 sessions of waterboarding. He went on to give details on the leadership of al queda, their operational structure, how they moved around the world, and how the moved their money. He also gave up info. that led to bin laden.

Which is more moral, waterboarding or allowing innocent people to die or be maimed for life. No flesh was cut, no eyes put out, no electrodes were used. You might be able to think that allowing innocent people to die is a noble act, I don't. Not when the alternative is as mild and easy on the terrorist as waterboarding.

You really need to read two books, "Courting Disaster," and now a new one I just heard about on Dennis Miller when he interviewed the author, "Mastermind," a book about Khalid Sheik Mohammed from his days fighting in Afghanistan and Bosnia to his capture and interrogation.

 

[billc]

this is an article about Colonel Bud Day, a roommate of John McCains at the hanoi hilton who was also tortured by the north vietnamese. He disagrees with the opinion that waterboarding is torture, he is also one who would know.

From wikipedia:

Bud Day
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
George E. Day
Born February 24, 1925 (age 86)

Col. Day in dress uniform.
Nickname Bud
Place of birth Sioux City, Iowa
Allegiance United States of America
Service/branch United States Air Force
United States Army
United States Marine Corps
Years of service 1942 - 1945 (Marine Corps)
1945 - 1950 (Army)
1950 - 1977 (Air Force)
Rank Colonel
Battles/wars World War II
Korean War
Vietnam War
Awards Medal of Honor
Air Force Cross
Air Force Distinguished Service Medal
Silver Star
Legion of Merit
Distinguished Flying Cross
Bronze Star (4) with Combat "V"
Defense Meritorious Service Medal
Purple Heart (4)
Air Medal (10)
Prisoner of War Medal
Other work Author, Return with Honor
Partner, Day and Meade Law Firm
George Everette "Bud" Day (born February 24, 1925) is a retired U.S. Air Force Colonel and Command Pilot who served during the Vietnam War, to include five years and seven months as a Prisoner of War in North Vietnam. He is often cited as being the most decorated U.S. service member since General Douglas MacArthur, having received some seventy decorations, a majority for actions in combat. Day is a recipient of the Medal of Honor, and is the only person ever awarded both the Medal of Honor and the Air Force Cross.

http://kewaunee.wisgop.info/2009/05/28/letter-from-bud-day/

The words of an American Hero:

Now, the point of this is that our make-believe president has declared to the world that we (U.S.) are a bunch of torturers. Thus it will be OK to torture us next time when they catch us….because that is what the U.S. does.

Our make-believe president is a know nothing fool who thinks that pouring a little water on some one’s face, or hanging a pair of womens pants over an Arabs head is TORTURE. He is a meathead.

I just talked to MOH holder Leo Thorsness who was also in my sq in jail, as was John McCain, and we agree that McCain does not speak for the POW group when he claims that Al Gharib was torture, or that “water boarding” is torture.

Our president and those fools around him who keep bad mouthing our great country are a disgrace to the United States. Please pass this info on to Sean Hannity. He is free to use it to point out the stupidity of the claims that water boarding, which has no after effect, is torture. If it got the Arab to cough up the story about how he planned the attack on the twin towers in NYC…hurrah for the guy who poured the water.

BUD DAY, MOH

 

[billc]

From Leo Thorsness, another medal of honor winner and vietnam P.O.W. who was also a room mate of John McCains who also has no problem with waterboarding terrorists.

http://www.looktruenorth.com/securi...orsness-torture-thoughts-on-memorial-day.html


Leo Thorsness is the Minnesota native who was awarded the Medal of Honor for unbelievable heroics in aerial combat over North Vietnam in April 1967. Within a few days of his heroics on his Medal of Honor mission, Col. Thorsness was shot down over North Vietnam and taken into captivity. In captivity he was tortured by the North Vietnamese for 18 straight days and periodically thereafter until his release in 1973...

If someone surveyed the surviving Vietnam POWs, we would likely not agree on one definition of torture. In fact, we wouldn't agree if waterboarding is torture. For example, John McCain, Bud Day and I were recently together. Bud is one of the toughest and most tortured Vietnam POWs. John thinks waterboarding is torture; Bud and I believe it is harsh treatment, but not torture. Other POWs would have varying opinions. I don't claim to be right; we just disagree. But as someone who has been severely tortured over an extended time, my first hand view on torture is this:

Torture, when used by an expert, can produce useful, truthful information. I base that on my experience. I believe that during torture, there is a narrow "window of truth" as pain (often multiple kinds) is increased. Beyond that point, if torture increases, the person breaks, or dies if he continues to resist...

Our world is not completely good or evil. To proclaim we will never use any form of enhanced interrogations causes our friends to think we are naïve and eases our enemies' recruitment of radical terrorists to plot attacks on innocent kids, men and women - or any infidel. If I were to catch a "mad bomber" running away from an explosive I would not hesitate a second to use "enhanced interrogation," including waterboarding, if it would save lives of innocent people.

Our naïveté does not impress radical terrorists like those who slit the throat of Daniel Pearl in 2002 simply because he was Jewish, and broadcast the sight and sound of his dying gurgling. Publicizing our enhanced interrogation techniques only emboldens those who will hurt us.

****I'll stand on the same moral plane as Bud Day and Leo Thorsness.****