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Not to mention-or argue-how many oh-so average and less than average individuals do complete boot camp......
Bill O'reilly freaks out
- Thread starter Josh
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Not to mention-or argue-how many oh-so average and less than average individuals do complete boot camp......
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There are a relatively small percentage of us here who actually *know* each other. Shouldn't stop us from being able to have civil conversations with each other.
You're both right to a point.
Josh--I haven't had near the same amount of exposure to "bad" drill sergeants as those who are/were regular Army have( The Army gets 8 weeks, most State Guards get 3 *days* of "basic" and are expected to continue practicing and pick up the rest in addition to attending succeeding drills), and it isn't always obvious *why* they do things the way they do, especially to those "on the outside looking in" as it were, but certain exercises are done specifically to build unit integrity, teamwork and general "static inoculation".
With that said, your concerns about excessive contact are genuine, if you beat someone up to that degree they'll be dealing with that instead of concentrating on what they will need to know to be good soldiers.
I'm not going to lie to you and say that sort of thing *never* goes on, though not in my unit( could be because most of us are either former service, or old enough not to need yelling at anymore, I'm the 3rd youngest man in the unit at 30).
However---
Compare Twin Fist's "woodpeckering" with, say, the opening scene from Full Metal Jacket(
(*WARNING! REALISTIC LANGUAGE, ADULT INNUENDO, VIOLENCE*) Now that maybe a movie scene, but remember, R. Lee Ermey was picked to be the Marine Drill Sergeant in this Vietnam flick, *because* he WAS a Marine Drill Instructor in Vietnam and this scene was done with his consultation off camera.
That was how it was then, and is nothing next to "woodpeckering".
You're both right to a point.
Josh--I haven't had near the same amount of exposure to "bad" drill sergeants as those who are/were regular Army have( The Army gets 8 weeks, most State Guards get 3 *days* of "basic" and are expected to continue practicing and pick up the rest in addition to attending succeeding drills), and it isn't always obvious *why* they do things the way they do, especially to those "on the outside looking in" as it were, but certain exercises are done specifically to build unit integrity, teamwork and general "static inoculation".
With that said, your concerns about excessive contact are genuine, if you beat someone up to that degree they'll be dealing with that instead of concentrating on what they will need to know to be good soldiers.
I'm not going to lie to you and say that sort of thing *never* goes on, though not in my unit( could be because most of us are either former service, or old enough not to need yelling at anymore, I'm the 3rd youngest man in the unit at 30).
However---
Compare Twin Fist's "woodpeckering" with, say, the opening scene from Full Metal Jacket(
That was how it was then, and is nothing next to "woodpeckering".
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[playnice]Jeff Letchford[/playnice]
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Sorry, Jeff. My sole purpose for providing the link was to provide context for how recruits were treated then vs. now, if it crossed the line let me know and I'll be more than happy to remove the link.
The link is fine, Andy. Thank you for posting the warning along with it.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
I wasnt speaking down to you because of your age. You cant help it, it isnt a failing. Dont be so sensitive.
and you apparently missed MY point, in a dojo, they have time to toughen people up, in boot camp they dont, so they have to use not only what works, but what works FAST. You dont know that, so i was letting you know. YOU used the martial arts to draw an example, I illustrated it for you. So you could understand better. Thats all. Dont be so sensitive.
prove it? ok, my recruit company started out with over 80, we graduated with about 50. thats almost half, by the time we got out of our schools, that number was down to less than 40. So MOST people couldnt take it. And this wasnt special forces or anything, just basic training and service schools. MOST, as in more than half, couldnt do it.
And this was of the people that could pass the background checks, the physical, and the academic tests. And "Morally Opposed" I have yet to meet many 18-22 year olds with much morality anyway, but whatever. I think most guys that age are too attached to thier hair to see it get chopped off...LOL
you are getting crude Josh, AGAIN. In fact I do KNOW that the odds are you couldnt take it, as has already been demonstrated, MOST people cant. The ODDS are you would fall into that group. It isnt personal, it is just the odds.
Not to mention, if you cant read something on a message board without getting riled up, as you JUST did, you could never handle a DI in your face. Which is just training for having the ENEMY in your face. That was personal, but not meant to be insulting in anyway.
It is a FACT. The things you learn in the military are valuable to ANYONE. Teamwork. Loyalty. Perseverance.Will Power. Sacrifice. Discipline.Toughness. Pride. Self Confidence.
Those things benefit ANYONE
so ANYONE would benefit from military service. But no, not everyone is cut out for it. Not everyone can handle it. And thats ok.
Josh, some free advice:
Dont be so sensitive. Someone disagreeing with you isnt always an insult.
BTW- thanks for the neg rep. LOL whatever
Or to unspin this, He doesn't understand what "play it out" means, and becomes angry because he's been made an ignorant fool by a teleprompter.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
uh, were you there?
OP
Josh
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Well I will tell you that I'm sure I could do the boot camp. I just don't want to do it. I never said it was easy or that it's not worthwhile though. I just don't assume the military is worthwhile for EVERYONE ON EARTH.
That the "odds" say I couldn't is irrelevant to the issue... and unless you counted everyone in America in your little study(and not just the ones who signed up for it) your "facts" are fuzzy. Also,
It's funny that you're calling me sensitive. This forum is heavily moderated as I've learned the hard way. In real life I would handle this differently..but here all I can do is defend myself via words on a screen. I assure you I'm losing no sleep over it...your post was just insane on many levels. Had to clear it up. If their isn't a rule on MT about assuming crap about someone..their should be...and even if the age thing was said in jest.. condescending ******** shouldn't be tolerated. Also..someone who clearly cannot fell the difference between "facts" and opinions"..
To say EVERYONE would (fill in the blank with anything) reeks of assumption.
Nah, I'm done replying to you.
On another note to remain on topic..
I would rather do boot camp in the marines than watch Bill O'reilly
No you wouldn't.
For one thing, there are somethings that are far more important then some silly ideologyl
For another, some people just can't sell the most important parts of them no matter what is offered.
What do you care about? How much is it worth? These questions are rhetorical and not necessarily directed at Josh.
Propaganda will tell you all you need to know about the above thoughts unless you know how to think your own thoughts...
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
thanks for proving my point Josh.
You have a nice night now...................
You have a nice night now...................
Nothing controversial about not wanting to voluntarily get your psyche reconstructed, Josh.
Training methods vary from country to country but harshness is pretty much a given wherever the PBI are being hammered into shape. The phrase that encapsulates it for me comes from a friend of mine who used to be a sergeant before he became a well ranked kendo sensei:
"If you get some stupid SOB who doesn't get it, you take him behind the barracks and 'explain' it to him until he does!".
That was in reference to recruits who were harming the effciency of all of their fellows for one reason or another.
With regard to "Every single Marine/Army person I've ever met has had some holier than thou swagger.", I don't know if that's universally true or not but it's certainly the case that the better the soldier the less of that you see. Bluster, it would seem, is inversely proportional to threat level
.
I watched a documentary tonight about the SAS and something that struck me is that these chaps were hard as nails and had been through some harrowing experiences and yet they looked and talked like a late-middle-aged farmer I might natter to in the pub.
I also learned a lot about a couple of covert, never-declared, wars we had in Malaysia and Indonesia that I'd not heard much on before - but that's for another thread and discourse.
EDIT: Oops. Late night time again, gentlemen. I posted in haste there, not realising that there were two more pages of posts between me and what I was replying to.
Training methods vary from country to country but harshness is pretty much a given wherever the PBI are being hammered into shape. The phrase that encapsulates it for me comes from a friend of mine who used to be a sergeant before he became a well ranked kendo sensei:
"If you get some stupid SOB who doesn't get it, you take him behind the barracks and 'explain' it to him until he does!".
That was in reference to recruits who were harming the effciency of all of their fellows for one reason or another.
With regard to "Every single Marine/Army person I've ever met has had some holier than thou swagger.", I don't know if that's universally true or not but it's certainly the case that the better the soldier the less of that you see. Bluster, it would seem, is inversely proportional to threat level
.I watched a documentary tonight about the SAS and something that struck me is that these chaps were hard as nails and had been through some harrowing experiences and yet they looked and talked like a late-middle-aged farmer I might natter to in the pub.
I also learned a lot about a couple of covert, never-declared, wars we had in Malaysia and Indonesia that I'd not heard much on before - but that's for another thread and discourse.
EDIT: Oops. Late night time again, gentlemen. I posted in haste there, not realising that there were two more pages of posts between me and what I was replying to
.
Twin Fist
Grandmaster
With regard to "Every single Marine/Army person I've ever met has had some holier than thou swagger.", I don't know if that's universally true or not but it's certainly the case that the better the soldier the less of that you see. Bluster, it would seem, is inversely proportional to threat level
Suk,
Thats mostly true. Some SEALS had the swagger, but the older, more experienced guys were very quiet, and very scary.
The SAS are some serious operators,no doubt, Even the SEALS i knew when I was in spoke respectfully of the SAS guys. That says a LOT.
I think it is a maturing process that happens whenever a person trains to do something difficult and dangerous.
We see it in the martial arts all the time, after all. The loud cocky ones tend to be the young, mid-ranked kyu grades, 'feeling their oats' as the saying goes. The quiet one that you need to be careful of is the 5th dan teaching undramatically over to one side.
I saw this in action in another documentary series I've watched over the past few weeks ("Ross Kemp In Afghanistan"). The young soldiers became quieter and more 'soldierly' the longer their tour went on. You could literally see boys becoming men before your eyes. It's a series well worth buying on DVD for it is a blunt reminder of what these chaps are going through (also some of the money goes to the organisations in the army that help the wounded and the widows).
As an aside, after watching this series, I was much more able to understand why some of the miltary people here at MT have been so strong in some of their views on threads where we've being talking dispasionately about the political ramifications of these 'economic' wars. It's powerfully affecting of your emotions when just out of camera shot you hear the voice of the medic saying "He's gone.". It's even worse when you see the interview with the soldiers mother ...
We see it in the martial arts all the time, after all. The loud cocky ones tend to be the young, mid-ranked kyu grades, 'feeling their oats' as the saying goes. The quiet one that you need to be careful of is the 5th dan teaching undramatically over to one side
.I saw this in action in another documentary series I've watched over the past few weeks ("Ross Kemp In Afghanistan"). The young soldiers became quieter and more 'soldierly' the longer their tour went on. You could literally see boys becoming men before your eyes. It's a series well worth buying on DVD for it is a blunt reminder of what these chaps are going through (also some of the money goes to the organisations in the army that help the wounded and the widows).
As an aside, after watching this series, I was much more able to understand why some of the miltary people here at MT have been so strong in some of their views on threads where we've being talking dispasionately about the political ramifications of these 'economic' wars. It's powerfully affecting of your emotions when just out of camera shot you hear the voice of the medic saying "He's gone.". It's even worse when you see the interview with the soldiers mother ...
zDom
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As an 18 year old kid, being subjected to Ermey's verbal abuse probably would have pissed me off.
Today, it would be hard as hell not to laugh or at least smile like Private Pyle — if you can get past taking it personal, Ermey's lines are hilarous. He sure can turn a phrase
(We now return you to your regularly scheduled Internet Argument)
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