Biggest martial art bs stories

[Hanzou]

I don't practice that kata and that small little bit isn't clear on what many of those techniques even are to me since I don't have a reference point. Give me the name and I can watch the whole thing and the transitions and give you applications. You stated that you don't need to "break apart" the flow drill because it is all useful. Yet, if you didn't know what the individual parts were for, then you couldn't break it apart to know what parts go with what part and it wouldn't be of any use. I agree if you don't know what your kata is for then you aren't training kata properly.

Again, why do you need to watch an ENTIRE kata to know what the individual techniques are supposed to do? Just by looking at that small snippet, I'm seeing the obvious strikes and kicks. The problem is that none of those strikes and kicks are practical, and will get your face caved in if you ever tried to use them against anyone who knows what they're doing (even someone who doesn't know what they're doing). Oh, I know, if you turn your hips with a 90 degree angle and tuck in your elbow just right, you're actually looking at a throw that will make a Judo black belt envious.

I did karate for a very long time, and karate kata is loaded with that nonsense. The only thing worse than that are the charlatans who profit from making karateka believe that there's practical techniques to be found in those layers and layers of obsolete silliness. Bunkai is bunk, pure and simple. If you want to do karate dancing, that's your business. It's pretty to look at, and I suppose you can indulge yourself with the history of each kata, but if you're looking for anything practical beyond a workout, you're wasting your time.

Hence why fighting karateka look like kickboxers.

I showed the video for what the throw is, one hand high on the arm and the other grabbing the belt.

One hand high and one hand low, and a quick turn does not equate into a hip throw. Compare your video to the gif. The movements aren't even REMOTELY similar in any respect. You can attempt to throw someone using those kata movements for the rest of your life, and you'll never hip throw anyone.

Once again you are COMPLETELY missing the point of kata.

Hardly. The point of kata in the past was to catalogue techniques and transfer that knowledge because you weren't able to learn from a proper teacher. The problem is that those techniques are outdated and impractical. Today, kata serves zero purpose beyond being a pretty dance number for competitions, and a way for schools to pad their belt test requirements.

If you wish to practice kata, fine. However, the notion that there's some hidden, practical knowledge within them is one of the purest forms of martial arts BS.

 

[Yokozuna514]

If you wish to practice kata, fine. However, the notion that there's some hidden, practical knowledge within them is one of the purest forms of martial arts BS.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion however the flip side of the coin is there are probably a great many people that will look at the MA you are doing and think it is also MA BS. That shouldn't change your opinion of what you do especially if you enjoy it and, more than likely, they will never appreciate what you do regardless of the time you take to explain it's beauty. The fact is, there are many people, including myself, that enjoy doing katas and use them as part of our training to become better. Are there better and/or more efficient ways to accomplish the same thing ? Perhaps, perhaps not. Will they bring you the same joy ? Perhaps, perhaps not. Does it matter ? Only to the person spending the time doing it.

Listen, I am certainly not a big fan of sketch MAists in any way and there are many schools in my area that I wouldn't spend an hour training in because I think it would be a complete waste of my time. I also do not feel the need to convince anyone that the MA they are doing is BS. We can spend some time on the floor together and they can come to their own conclusion.

The internet makes it even easier for people to research MA so if the goal is to find the best one, how come the spectrum of schools is so varied in terms of well pretty much everything ? It seems to me that people take MA for a number of reasons and some (if not a lot of them) have nothing to do with being an efficient fighter.

 

[Hanzou]

You are certainly entitled to your opinion however the flip side of the coin is there are probably a great many people that will look at the MA you are doing and think it is also MA BS.

Where did I say that any MA is BS? I merely said that a widespread practice within certain MAs are BS, and I gave multiple reasons why.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Where did I say that any MA is BS? I merely said that a widespread practice within certain MAs are BS, and I gave multiple reasons why.

I think I quoted you where I took it as you say or imply that practicing kata is BS. That could be your opinion and you are entitled to it. Two people can look at the same thing and see totally different things. From one practitioner to another I only suggest that you respect people's choices and let them do whatever voodoo that they want to do. I say this because there are a lot of people that think what I do is pure craziness. They are probably not all wrong.

 

[Hanzou]

I think I quoted you where I took it as you say or imply that practicing kata is BS. That could be your opinion and you are entitled to it. Two people can look at the same thing and see totally different things. From one practitioner to another I only suggest that you respect people's choices and let them do whatever voodoo that they want to do. I say this because there are a lot of people that think what I do is pure craziness. They are probably not all wrong.

Which it is. The belief that there is practical techniques hidden within the movements of kata is complete nonsense. Unfortunately there are charlatans who make their living peddling that nonsense to the masses. As I said in an earlier post, Bunkai is completely bunk.

Now if you wish to practice kata for health benefits, or to revel in the history of your chosen style, by all means. However, the idea that a knife hand attack is actually a highly complex throw is pure BS.

 

[Yokozuna514]

Which it is. The belief that there is practical techniques hidden within the movements of kata is complete nonsense. Unfortunately there are charlatans who make their living peddling that nonsense to the masses. As I said in an earlier post, Bunkai is completely bunk.

Now if you wish to practice kata for health benefits, or to revel in the history of your chosen style, by all means. However, the idea that a knife hand attack is actually a highly complex throw is pure BS.

Ha, ha, seems like you inflexible here and not able to concede that other people may have different ideas about things than you do. There is probably no point in me spending any more effort trying to convince you that your viewpoint is only important to you. Hopefully your literal thinking doesn't inhibit you in any other part of your life but I am assuming that it works for you in someway. It does make growth through the exchange of ideas difficult but hey if that's the brand of voodoo you want to do, have at it.

 

[isshinryuronin]

Which it is. The belief that there is practical techniques hidden within the movements of kata is complete nonsense. Unfortunately there are charlatans who make their living peddling that nonsense to the masses. As I said in an earlier post, Bunkai is completely bunk.

Now if you wish to practice kata for health benefits, or to revel in the history of your chosen style, by all means. However, the idea that a knife hand attack is actually a highly complex throw is pure BS.

If you were never taught to properly read, the combination of letters on a page will be meaningless and confusing. After all, how can a bunch of "chicken scratching" convey thoughts and ideas? Illiterate people often put down "book learning" as irrelevant. The same for people who do not understand kata. If they were not properly taught (kata illiterate) the movements may be confusing and considered irrelevant, something for them to put down.

While I can read a few languages, I am ignorant in Arabic, and to me, their writing truly looks like chicken scratching. It is incomprehensible to me. But I would never take the position that just because it appears to be "nonsense" to me, those educated in it can't find true meaning in it.

I fully agree there are those who come up with ridiculous, unrealistic bunkai. (I dislike complex and elaborate bunkai.) But that does not mean other's interpretation of bunkai is nonsense. You need to consider the source and motivation : Are they just ignorant, or maybe trying to appear to be an expert, or trying to be novel and carve out a seminar/YouTube niche? Or do they have a real understanding of the style's techniques and how the kata evolved and what it really represents?

Sometimes a knife hand strike is a prelude to a grab and simple takedown, and sometimes, it's just a "karate chop." All kata have application variants to handle the uncertainties of combat. Targets, angles and follow-ups may change as the situation calls for. Most all masters, past and present, encourage exploring these possible variants in one's study of kata.

 

[Hanzou]

If you were never taught to properly read, the combination of letters on a page will be meaningless and confusing. After all, how can a bunch of "chicken scratching" convey thoughts and ideas? Illiterate people often put down "book learning" as irrelevant. The same for people who do not understand kata. If they were not properly taught (kata illiterate) the movements may be confusing and considered irrelevant, something for them to put down.

While I can read a few languages, I am ignorant in Arabic, and to me, their writing truly looks like chicken scratching. It is incomprehensible to me. But I would never take the position that just because it appears to be "nonsense" to me, those educated in it can't find true meaning in it.

I fully agree there are those who come up with ridiculous, unrealistic bunkai. (I dislike complex and elaborate bunkai.) But that does not mean other's interpretation of bunkai is nonsense. You need to consider the source and motivation : Are they just ignorant, or maybe trying to appear to be an expert, or trying to be novel and carve out a seminar/YouTube niche? Or do they have a real understanding of the style's techniques and how the kata evolved and what it really represents?

Sometimes a knife hand strike is a prelude to a grab and simple takedown, and sometimes, it's just a "karate chop." All kata have application variants to handle the uncertainties of combat. Targets, angles and follow-ups may change as the situation calls for. Most all masters, past and present, encourage exploring these possible variants in one's study of kata.

This is the other side of a nonsense I'm afraid. There is no deeper aspect to kata practice. You're simply learning a series of techniques and movements to string the techniques together. Again, the vast majority of those techniques are obsolete and impractical for modern fighting, which is why when Karateka tend to actually fight, they look like this;

That is the final expression of all of that pointless kata knowledge, and the most hilarious aspect of it all is that they end up with a terrible guard and awful footwork.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This is the other side of a nonsense I'm afraid. There is no deeper aspect to kata practice. You're simply learning a series of techniques and movements to string the techniques together. Again, the vast majority of those techniques are obsolete and impractical for modern fighting, which is why when Karateka tend to actually fight, they look like this;

That is the final expression of all of that pointless kata knowledge, and the most hilarious aspect of it all is that they end up with a terrible guard and awful footwork.

I can hear the panic and uncertainty in their footsteps.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

This is the other side of a nonsense I'm afraid. There is no deeper aspect to kata practice. You're simply learning a series of techniques and movements to string the techniques together. Again, the vast majority of those techniques are obsolete and impractical for modern fighting, which is why when Karateka tend to actually fight, they look like this;

That is the final expression of all of that pointless kata knowledge, and the most hilarious aspect of it all is that they end up with a terrible guard and awful footwork.

You say with complete confidence that there is no deeper aspect to kata training. Yet some folks who are into kata say the opposite. Why do you have to be right?

 

[JowGaWolf]

You say with complete confidence that there is no deeper aspect to kata training. Yet some folks who are into kata say the opposite. Why do you have to be right?

 

[Hanzou]

You say with complete confidence that there is no deeper aspect to kata training. Yet some folks who are into kata say the opposite. Why do you have to be right?

I'm talking about the Bunkai nonsense. People are free to indulge in kata practice for other means.

 

[JowGaWolf]

 

[Hanzou]

The instructor talking over the kata practice was saying eye roll worthy stuff. Seriously bud, it's not that serious.

Also the Karate Nerd needs to take a long walk off a short bridge.

 

[JowGaWolf]

The instructor talking over the kata practice was saying eye roll worthy stuff. Seriously bud, it's not that serious.

Also the Karate Nerd needs to take a long walk off a short bridge.

I wouldn't know didn't watch the whole thing. lol

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I'm talking about the Bunkai nonsense. People are free to indulge in kata practice for other means.

I’m sure they are glad to have your permission.

 

[Yokozuna514]

I can hear the panic and uncertainty in their footsteps.

To be honest, these guys do not represent what point fighting is at the top level. These are local weekend warriors at best who are at least off the couch.

It’s not my cup of tea in many ways but making these guys an example to support an argument is not necessarily an honest attempt at making a point.

Check out some matches in Karate Combat. A lot of Shotokan guys there and they don’t look or sound panicked.

 

[Hanzou]

To be honest, these guys do not represent what point fighting is at the top level. These are local weekend warriors at best who are at least off the couch.

It’s not my cup of tea in many ways but making these guys an example to support an argument is not necessarily an honest attempt at making a point.

Check out some matches in Karate Combat. A lot of Shotokan guys there and they don’t look or sound panicked.

Why isn't it honest? The "weekend warrior" constitutes the majority of karate practitioners. I'm willing to bet the vast majority of karate practitioners resemble those two guys than the top point fighters.

I can hear the panic and uncertainty in their footsteps.

That tends to happen when you're in a striking art, and you're never really hit.

 

[JowGaWolf]

To be honest, these guys do not represent what point fighting is at the top level. These are local weekend warriors at best who are at least off the couch.

It’s not my cup of tea in many ways but making these guys an example to support an argument is not necessarily an honest attempt at making a point.

Check out some matches in Karate Combat. A lot of Shotokan guys there and they don’t look or sound panicked.

That's fair. I wouldn't use them as a sample for Sample for their system. There was a lot in that video that would make me put them in the beginners box for sparring.

In my mind there are Beginners, Intermediates and Advance. Everyone should be able to get close to Intermediate performance. Advance level would be professional level or high level competition fighters. A martial art system should be practical enough to anyone who is interested in fighting with it, into the Intermediate range. I would use those students to show what "everyday people" can do. I would use them as a sample., because face it. Not everyone is interested in being a professional fighter, nor do they have that much time to commit to it in general.

A person can be highly skilled in the Intermediate level. But don't train as professional fighter or competitive fighter would have to. Those guys in the video would be on the lower end of the Beginners (for application) in my book. Like the guy with the short legs and bad flexibility. He should be trying to use the techniques and limitations that work best for his short legs. Like strategies based on close range fighting.

 

[Hanzou]

That's fair. I wouldn't use them as a sample for Sample for their system. There was a lot in that video that would make me put them in the beginners box for sparring.

In my mind there are Beginners, Intermediates and Advance. Everyone should be able to get close to Intermediate performance. Advance level would be professional level or high level competition fighters. A martial art system should be practical enough to anyone who is interested in fighting with it, into the Intermediate range. I would use those students to show what "everyday people" can do. I would use them as a sample., because face it. Not everyone is interested in being a professional fighter, nor do they have that much time to commit to it in general.

A person can be highly skilled in the Intermediate level. But don't train as professional fighter or competitive fighter would have to. Those guys in the video would be on the lower end of the Beginners (for application) in my book. Like the guy with the short legs and bad flexibility. He should be trying to use the techniques and limitations that work best for his short legs. Like strategies based on close range fighting.

Both of those guys were black belts.