Biggest martial art bs stories

[JowGaWolf]

Good luck even finding a Muay Boran school outside of Thailand.

I'm sure they are really difficult to find especially in the U.S..

In other words, you don't ever need to learn the form to learn those techniques when you study Muay Thai.

This is probably true for any fighting systems. Forms are important but a person can probably learn without the forms. I wouldn't teach anyone without teaching them forms, simply because I think it's a good training tool., especially when you have no one else to train with, which is how it is for me most of the time.

Much of the Jow Ga that you have seen me do outside were drills and not forms. I still do forms, but how many videos have you seen me do of a complete form?

 

[JowGaWolf]

Any videos of these fighters? I'd like to see them.

I'll have to see if I can find them again. Hopefully they are still around on Youtube.

But the Jow Ga school you attended didn't offer sparring, and if I'm not mistaken you don't run a school.

The Jow Ga school that attended had sparring. We had sparring when the Sifu was there. I have old video of that. Then the Sifu Went out of town which left Me and 2 Instructors. At that time I wasn't an instructor. We (2 instructors and I) went to the Sanda school to spar against them. The Sanda school out performed the 2 instructors and I kept gassing out. Totally spent. Our Sifut at that time was disappointed. He told me that he expected to see more Jow Ga out of the Instructors.

The instructor from a boxing background made a decision to spar at least once a week on Thursday. Because he got his but handed to him, he also wanted to take some Sanda Classes. Sifu wasn't happy to hear that, some stuff went down, and that guy left the school or was kicked out, or maybe he got stabbed in the back like I did. Before he left, I was kept asking him about the class and he said he didn't have time, and I offered to the sparring class for him until he had more time. He never came back, I was left with the class and felt that I should see it through. Now we are down 1 instructor. When that instructor couldn't make class I would take over. So now I'm filing in for the instructor who is left and taking over the sparring class that the other Instructor wanted to do.

For almost a year no one came to that class. It was just me by myself. I worked on cardio and kung fu shadow boxing. Drilled the crap out of some big wheel punches, studies some video and when I had a chance to spar with others, I ate some punches. Eventually I got better and the Sifu even said as much. The Sifu made the comment to me "You know more kung fu than some others who have been training for years." and he wanted to see me have more drive to become Sifu. Out of respect I won't say who he thought I was better than. To me the only thing I cared about was doing Kung Fu. so from that point, I became an instructor. It was kind of weird because I jumped rank.

My sifu back thin was ok because he could see in my sparring that I understood more and that I actually tried to use the kung fu. It wasn't until the second visit to the Sanda school that the other Jow Ga students wanted to learn from me. Including the instructor who had seniority over me. They wanted to know how did I learn it because I took the same classes that they took, with the exception of what I did during the sparring classes. So they joined me, and we worked hard. Then eventually the other instructor joined and I started to teach him how to apply it.

The other instructor didn't learn much because he kep going back to old ways, he didn't want to spar to learn. So thanks to the videos, every Thrusday I would teach Jow Ga sparring and I would help teach students during the normal classes. So that's how I became the Instructor.

I don't run a school now, because I got kicked out "Said reason was that I focused on fighting too much." But I used to run the school along with the other instructor. My responsibilities were,

• Website design
• Marketing
• Paying rent
• Managing dues and buying equipment as needed.
• Reaching out to students who were interested
• Run Saturday's sparring session
• Provide assistance to students who wanted to train on Sundays.

Soooo. yeah pretty much ran the school. Who found the school building location to train in. That was me. I was able to do what the other 2 instructors didn't think was possible. So that it in a nutshell so to speak

 

[JowGaWolf]

How can you say Jow Ga is viable if the schools don't even allow you to spar?

We allowed sparring. Every Jow ga school I've been in has allowed sparring. But none of them had a dedicated sparring day. I used to market videos and images of us sparring in the school. That's why I have so much video of it.

Sorry to hear about your wife. Family comes first always IMO. Take care of her and make sure she beats cancer.

Always.. She made it through the cancer. That was a few years ago now. I did the right thing. Put family first. It meant that I had to stop training for competition back then, but it was worth it. I can always do kung fu and spar. The only reason I wanted to do competition was so I could finally do Jow Ga without holding back.

I always held back for the safety of students and the instructor. Need to go full force when we are learning. But in competition I would be able to relax and just enjoy Jow Ga without concern. I may get the opportunity again one day.

I went a year MIA from the kung fu school to focus on my wife. When I got back, the instructor had been lying to the Sifu and said that I didn't contribute to the school and he did that knowing that my wife had cancer. Grade A Jerk.

 

[Buka]

I want to know more about those five attractive karate moms. It was a reality that being the (young) chief instructor had its perks - But that was SOOOO long ago. In that time period, Kung Fu, was king on TV and many MA schools advertised as kung fu and it became better known than the name "karate." Parker joked with me that many people thought karate was a type of sushi, so didn't mind the "kung fu" moniker. Whatever brought them in. That was the Golden Age of MA business with no lack of students. But the BS line has to be drawn somewhere. Happy to read you had a chance to do that in your teaching.

The most fun I remember from that time, was leaving class, rushing to one of the guy's apartments, sitting on the floor stretching and watching Kung Fu on TV every week. We didn't much care about the fight scenes, but we loved the flashbacks when he was training in the Temple and his teachers would quote him wisdom.

 

[WaterGal]

Martial art seems to attract a lot of bs to it. I bought this up because I just saw some people genuinely convinced online that Donnie yen once beat up 8 men outside of a night club and sent them all to hospital with broken bones.

I thought it was pretty funny. Thought it’d be funny to share different stories of nonsense martial art stories you’ve heard

One time I was looking at some websites for schools in the next state.... I think I was helping somebody pick a local school for their kid, I forget?

Anyway, this instructor had this absolutely ridiculous bio on his school website. It was like... Master [Some Korean Guy] learned Taekwondo from monks in a remote monastery in rural Korea. He went there after his parents were murdered by gangsters, and the monks taught him Taekwondo so he could avenge his parents death. While he was there, he learned supernatural abilities such as levitation. I was like... um, I think that's Batman, dude.

 

[Rusty B]

One time I was looking at some websites for schools in the next state.... I think I was helping somebody pick a local school for their kid, I forget?

Anyway, this instructor had this absolutely ridiculous bio on his school website. It was like... Master [Some Korean Guy] learned Taekwondo from monks in a remote monastery in rural Korea. He went there after his parents were murdered by gangsters, and the monks taught him Taekwondo so he could avenge his parents death. While he was there, he learned supernatural abilities such as levitation. I was like... um, I think that's Batman, dude.

I remember reading a dojo website a couple of months ago, where the owner was discussing the history of his particular style of karate... and he mentioned something about "Okinawan samurais" - I can't remember if he was saying it was used to fight "Okinawan samurai" or if these "Okinawan samurai" used it themselves.

But... "Okinawan samurai?" Surely, I thought, there was never a such thing. I thought maybe I was wrong, so I spent some time Googling it and... nope, no such thing.

 

[punisher73]

I remember reading a dojo website a couple of months ago, where the owner was discussing the history of his particular style of karate... and he mentioned something about "Okinawan samurais" - I can't remember if he was saying it was used to fight "Okinawan samurai" or if these "Okinawan samurai" used it themselves.

But... "Okinawan samurai?" Surely, I thought, there was never a such thing. I thought maybe I was wrong, so I spent some time Googling it and... nope, no such thing.

Hmmm, I had always heard the term as well and immediately came up with several references.
"The Pechin (is the Okinawan/Ryukyuan equivalent of the Japanese Samurai. In the Ryūkyū Kingdom (Okinawa), feudal warriors of the Pechin class would refer to themselves samurai"

Also, further on the "caste system" of Okinawa Yukatchu - Wikipedia (which referred to certain members of the Pechin class as "samuree"

BUT, I also hear what you are saying and the image conjured up is that Okinawans were trained as Japanese Samurai and had the same weapons/training/martial arts etc. I don't believe that occurred. It was a title used to denote those of the warrior class in Okinawa.

Also, I do agree that attributing certain techniques to the "farmers versus the Samurai" stories have been shown to be BS. For example, the horizontal thrust punch was designed to punch through samurai armor or that the jumping kicks were designed to knock a Samurai off of his horse.

 

[Christopher Adamchek]

And yet we have several effective MA styles that don't use kata at all....

true...sort of - they do use patterns and drill sets
and practical applications of kata have been seen in MMA

 

[isshinryuronin]

But... "Okinawan samurai?" Surely, I thought, there was never a such thing. I thought maybe I was wrong, so I spent some time Googling it and... nope, no such thing.

There was indeed a thing of Okinawan "Samurai." They were called Pechin and had low, mid and high ranks, and like in Japan, were considered to be of the upper middle to upper class, often part of the nobility or closely associated with them. Not sure if the two were exactly the same in the cultural/Buddhist sense, but close enough. Dress and weaponry were similar to the Japanese warrior class.

A number of the older karate (toude) practitioners in the late 1700's/early 1800's were members of this class, as instruction at that time was closely restricted to chosen individuals. The commoners were not included. A number of current and recent Okinawan masters can trace their ancestral lineage back to this noble class.

The "Godfather" of Okinawan karate, "Bushi" Matsumura was a lower level Pechin and was schooled in the Jigen Ryu style of Japanese swordmanship of the Satsuma clan, as well as being expert in Goi Ryu, the skill of weapons use while mounted on horseback. He, like other martial artists of the time, were often employed as security agents and body guards to the Royal House.

edit note - just saw Punisher's post in which he covered some of this. hope mine provides other useful info on the subject.

 

[WaterGal]

For example, the horizontal thrust punch was designed to punch through samurai armor or that the jumping kicks were designed to knock a Samurai off of his horse.

Oh I have an even worse one! I've heard someone claim that jumping kicks in TKD were invented during the Korean War so they could kick enemy soldiers off their motorcycles.

 

[dvcochran]

Oh I have an even worse one! I've heard someone claim that jumping kicks in TKD were invented during the Korean War so they could kick enemy soldiers off their motorcycles.

Haha! I heard the same thing only much farther back in time, to the dynasty wars. They were kicking soldiers off their horses. There is some evidence to support this but it is very substantial.
True story; My GM came to the states in 1974. In 1976 he was at a city fair in Nashville and used a Pinto (a short horse) to demonstrate this technique. He did knock the horse down, knocking the man on the horse off, but also got in a butt ton of trouble with city officials. Turned out to be great advertising for the Dojang.

 

[Hanzou]

true...sort of - they do use patterns and drill sets
and practical applications of kata have been seen in MMA

Patterns and drill sets are not pre-arranged kata full of obsolete techniques with fuzzy applications.

As for practical applications of kata in MMA settings; People tend to take rather liberal interpretations of a movement or sequence in a kata and apply it to MMA. It's no different than the folks who think that Vitor Belfort or Chuck Liddell were using Wing Chun when they were charging people with a flurry of punches.

 

[punisher73]

Patterns and drill sets are not pre-arranged kata full of obsolete techniques with fuzzy applications.

As for practical applications of kata in MMA settings; People tend to take rather liberal interpretations of a movement or sequence in a kata and apply it to MMA. It's no different than the folks who think that Vitor Belfort or Chuck Liddell were using Wing Chun when they were charging people with a flurry of punches.

Once again, you have a preconceived idea as to what "kata" is. A kata is EXACTLY patterns and drill sets that are put together.

For example, Kendo "kata"

For example, Judo "kata"

For example, Iaido "kata"

Notice that the first two all require a partner and are no different than "drilling" done for beginners in more "alive" gyms, Iaido the moves are very obvious as to what their application is and are meant to be done pre-emptive before the other person can react. These kata were to ingrain the basics before moving to kumite (sparring) and to train techniques that were too dangerous to practice all out.

Now lets move on to BJJ. Here are 5 solo grappling drills from Stephen Kesting (he shows the application w/ a partner).

These are 5 skills that are vital and beneficial to a grappler. If you put the 5 drills together into a flow pattern so that you can go from one drill to another for your home practice. You have now just created a "kata". Nothing more mystical about "kata" than that. Let's say you become a really good grappler and start teaching others, you now teach them your "flow drill" so they can ingrain the skills faster when they are training alone. Voila! The transmission of kata.

 

[Hanzou]

Once again, you have a preconceived idea as to what "kata" is. A kata is EXACTLY patterns and drill sets that are put together.

:sigh: Why do have to keep playing these dumb semantic games? When I say kata you know exactly what I mean, and yet we still play silly word games pretending that a football player doing Fast Feet is the same as a Karateka doing Basai Dai.

Please show me a single example of a Karateka fighting like this either in sparring, competition, or self defense;

You know the difference between that Bjj vid and that kata gif? Bjj practitioners will actually use those techniques.

 

[punisher73]

:sigh: Why do have to keep playing these dumb semantic games? When I say kata you know exactly what I mean, and yet we still play silly word games pretending that a football player doing Fast Feet is the same as a Karateka doing Basai Dai.

Please show me a single example of a Karateka fighting like this either in sparring, competition, or self defense;

You know the difference between that Bjj vid and that kata gif? Bjj practitioners will actually use those techniques.

Its not semantics. You posted a performance video of a kata. Does performance execution of kata have anything to do with fighting? No. You can't tell the difference between the two which is the issue. You can't understand what kata is supposed to be used for or why, which is the problem.

Without knowing what kata that is, I can't do a better job of isolating what the techinques show, but off the top.

First part of the kata can be used to strip a grip and then entering for a throw

Here's the issue I will agree with you on. Unless you isolate those moves and practice them on a live opponent, then kata alone won't make you into a fighter. Kata is just a tool to train and have a system in your memory.

 

[Hanzou]

Its not semantics. You posted a performance video of a kata. Does performance execution of kata have anything to do with fighting? No. You can't tell the difference between the two which is the issue. You can't understand what kata is supposed to be used for or why, which is the problem.

Without knowing what kata that is, I can't do a better job of isolating what the techinques show, but off the top.

Why do you need to know what the kata is? Simply isolate the techniques shown and explain what their purpose is and show someone using it in a fighting context. I can do that for the Bjj video you posted quite easily.

First part of the kata can be used to strip a grip and then entering for a throw

Really? What throw in particular? I would love to know what throw utilizes that movement right after the first part of the kata.

Here's the issue I will agree with you on. Unless you isolate those moves and practice them on a live opponent, then kata alone won't make you into a fighter. Kata is just a tool to train and have a system in your memory.

If you need to break apart the kata to get the valuable movements, why are you doing the kata in the first place (Especially given that many karate schools are sticklers on doing the kata EXACTLY right)? Why aren't you simply discarding the kata and pulling out the valuable techniques?

Again, I don't need to break apart that flograppling drill to get the useful bits, the ENTIRE thing is useful for actually grappling.

 

[Rusty B]

There was indeed a thing of Okinawan "Samurai." They were called Pechin and had low, mid and high ranks, and like in Japan, were considered to be of the upper middle to upper class, often part of the nobility or closely associated with them. Not sure if the two were exactly the same in the cultural/Buddhist sense, but close enough. Dress and weaponry were similar to the Japanese warrior class.

I just did some digging around, and this doesn't appear to the case.

The pechin/yukatchu didn't wear the wear the armor that samurais a famous for.

In any case, if the pechin/yukatchu was what the website was referring to; they should have said that instead of "Okinawan samurai."

 

[Rusty B]

Oh I have an even worse one! I've heard someone claim that jumping kicks in TKD were invented during the Korean War so they could kick enemy soldiers off their motorcycles.

I heard something similar. The version I heard was that the South Korean Army saw a need for a martial art with minimal use of the hands, so that soldiers could engage in close quarters combat without having to drop their rifles and/or other essential tools and gear. The result was TKD.

 

[Rusty B]

Okay, here's one... it may be true, it may not be... it's somewhat of an urban legend, I suppose.

I've read that Abraham Lincoln was a professional wrestler, and the first to ever win what would later become the NWA World Championship after unifying several titles to become undisputed.

Before anyone responds "professional wrestling is fake" - that has only been true since after World War I. During the Great Depression, the wrestling industry was on the verge of dying out. When it was real, the majority of the match would be on the canvas with wrestlers having each other in various holds - without much movement or action; and wrestling wasn't able to compete with boxing. The solution to this was making it fake, in order to add action and excitement to it.

So if Abraham Lincoln was indeed the first to hold this title... he would have engaged in a real combat sport in order to win it.

 

[punisher73]

Why do you need to know what the kata is? Simply isolate the techniques shown and explain what their purpose is and show someone using it in a fighting context. I can do that for the Bjj video you posted quite easily.



Really? What throw in particular? I would love to know what throw utilizes that movement right after the first part of the kata.



If you need to break apart the kata to get the valuable movements, why are you doing the kata in the first place (Especially given that many karate schools are sticklers on doing the kata EXACTLY right)? Why aren't you simply discarding the kata and pulling out the valuable techniques?

Again, I don't need to break apart that flograppling drill to get the useful bits, the ENTIRE thing is useful for actually grappling.

I don't practice that kata and that small little bit isn't clear on what many of those techniques even are to me since I don't have a reference point. Give me the name and I can watch the whole thing and the transitions and give you applications. You stated that you don't need to "break apart" the flow drill because it is all useful. Yet, if you didn't know what the individual parts were for, then you couldn't break it apart to know what parts go with what part and it wouldn't be of any use. I agree if you don't know what your kata is for then you aren't training kata properly.

I showed the video for what the throw is, one hand high on the arm and the other grabbing the belt.

Once again you are COMPLETELY missing the point of kata. You CAN pull out the "valuable techniques" to use. The kata is a way to "store" all of that information about a system in an easy to remember way.

Do you need kata to learn to fight? Nope, never said that. Properly used, are kata beneficial?

Yep. I am done trying to show and highlight the many uses of kata and why they were a part of those fighting traditions since you don't understand it and nothing anyone says will change your mind.