Biggest Issue When You Started A School

[martialartsnerd]

Word of mouth is still the best advertising IMO. My daughter is on the autism spectrum. Her Taekwondo instructor has been amazing for her. I told another family from church who has a child very similar to my daughter. They now drive 30 minutes to come to our school, passing over several others, because of our instructor gift in working with ASD kids.

This might go toward the OPs point about marketing the instructor.


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Oh, that's actually quite nice! And it absolutely does! Instructors don't always fully realize just how much leverage personal branding can have.

 

[martialartsnerd]

My issue has been just finding people, with an interest.

I even reached out to some people, from an old school. Their school was closing, I saw it as an opportunity. My aggravation with the situation is that not one person connected the dots. I am not some tool, I used to train at your school; after 5 years I had nothing to show for it. And the thing is, they have an awesome FB page. For all appearances, they are pretty legit. In reality, they are all Paper Tigers.

Finding people, let alone qualified leads, has always been an issue, and it's a bit two-edged in that the martial arts industry has yet to adapt modern marketing tactics to an ever-evolving world. The over-dependency on obsolete marketing models has sent costs flying through the roof just to obtain one lead, leaving the legitimate small-business schools at a massive disadvantage compared to the McDojos that managed to get filthy rich in the worst way possible. McDojos, I feel, can get away with traditional marketing as done in the martial arts industry because THEY JUST HAVE THAT MUCH MONEY. For the ones who don't, they need a different tactic instead of playing the same game that these financial titans can play better simply because of a vast difference in spending power.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Finding people, let alone qualified leads, has always been an issue, and it's a bit two-edged in that the martial arts industry has yet to adapt modern marketing tactics to an ever-evolving world. The over-dependency on obsolete marketing models has sent costs flying through the roof just to obtain one lead, leaving the legitimate small-business schools at a massive disadvantage compared to the McDojos that managed to get filthy rich in the worst way possible. McDojos, I feel, can get away with traditional marketing as done in the martial arts industry because THEY JUST HAVE THAT MUCH MONEY. For the ones who don't, they need a different tactic instead of playing the same game that these financial titans can play better simply because of a vast difference in spending power.

I'd be careful equating money with "McDojo" (though that is where many of us tend to go). "McDojo" is a vague term - there is little real agreement on how to identify one. I think it best fits Justice Stewart's comment in Jacobellis v. Ohio: "I know it when I see it". The place I'd be most likely to call a McDojo around me is not huge. It's successful, but has been in the same small storefront for decades, so isn't that big. I think the training and abilities produced are laughable, but the students are happy. He's serving the desires of his market. The group I'd have thrown that epithet at back in my old hometown was more an early XMA-style dojo. They made more money, but they also produced better skills (though some of those skills aren't fighting skills). They, too, served their market well.

Rare in my experience is the school that's actually fleecing the sheep. The issue for instructors like me is that we want serious students from day one (which doesn't really exist - those who seem most serious often are among the least committed). We need to learn to recognize the right pool of candidates, attract and retain enough of them, and price our services appropriately so we can earn what we need. It's my experience that railing against the other schools (including the McDojos of the world) takes our focus off our own faults. Basically, we blame our failure on their success.

 

[hoshin1600]

It's something I picked up as I read Blue Ocean Strategy. A red ocean means that the industry's become competitive and that everyone competes on conventional points, such as pricing, quality, etc. A blue ocean is unlocked by finding a certain value that unlocks its own market from the crowd. One potential for unlocking a blue ocean is almost always personal brand, because that can't be copied. Not easily, anyway. And I feel that this is ESPECIALLY the case in the martial arts.

there is a fatal flaw in personal branding, its not scalable. a successful school does not require the owner to teach every class everyday. in fact its just the opposite. one of the issues i see as i read many of these posts is your wanting to apply a modern marketing model but that would need a prerequisite of a modern business model for the school, which is rare. the bulk of martial schools are still using the same business model that was established in the 1950's or earlier.

....In fact many of the qualities we consider McDojo hallmarks and really just good, modern business practices (AKA...amenities or additional services and conviences)

 

[Gerry Seymour]

there is a fatal flaw in personal branding, its not scalable. a successful school does not require the owner to teach every class everyday. in fact its just the opposite. one of the issues i see as i read many of these posts is your wanting to apply a modern marketing model but that would need a prerequisite of a modern business model for the school, which is rare. the bulk of martial schools are still using the same business model that was established in the 1950's or earlier.

....In fact many of the qualities we consider McDojo hallmarks and really just good, modern business practices (AKA...amenities or additional services and conviences)

There are some really good examples of people managing to scale businesses started on personal branding. The Jack Canfield Company and the John Maxwell Company both stand on the name and reputation of their founders, and now train and certify coaches, trainers, etc., who use that brand to sell their services. I agree it's harder to do than when the brand isn't seen as a personal brand (Harv Eker branded his similar business as Peak Potentials, which made it easier to gradually replace himself in the day-to-day running).

 

[hoshin1600]

There are some really good examples of people managing to scale businesses started on personal branding. The Jack Canfield Company and the John Maxwell Company both stand on the name and reputation of their founders, and now train and certify coaches, trainers, etc., who use that brand to sell their services. I agree it's harder to do than when the brand isn't seen as a personal brand (Harv Eker branded his similar business as Peak Potentials, which made it easier to gradually replace himself in the day-to-day running).

i think that is totally different. both Jack and John are motivational speakers who write books, same as Anthony Robbins. Kiyosaki has branded seminars all over that is run by others. each of these guys ARE the product. where as Uechi - Ryu karate is the product and Aikido is the product.. this goes back to what i was saying before, it is difficult to get beyond that unless you create your own system. other wise Aikido is branded by the linage. oh its Satome Aikido,, its Saito aikido, Shioda or Tohei. in most cases the brand is already there. Villari karate, Cerio Karate, Morio Higaonna's IOGKF, Yamaguchi Goju-Kai, Gracie BJJ,,the list is endless. the brand, the name, the expectation is already there through the lineage. you cant put a brand on top of brand. if the marketing is to build up the "person",, first off your going to upset the establishment of the lineage. then its going to put the teacher in a serious position of questioning his credentials and his ability. the teacher would have to be really fricken good. otherwise the marketing is going to have the reverse effect and give you a bad reputation. everyone will be talking about you and your brand but not in a good way. you'll be sure to be flamed on the Bullshito sight.



EDIT: and the scale of Canfield and Maxwell and the rest is not comparable. they started with a framework of being internationally known. not the same if your just a guy who owns the local dojo. in order for the MA guy to do that he would have to start with that scale in mind and maybe write a book or become a YouTube sensation. thats all based on business model not marketing.. that was the point of my previous post.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i think that is totally different. both Jack and John are motivational speakers who write books, same as Anthony Robbins. Kiyosaki has branded seminars all over that is run by others. each of these guys ARE the product. where as Uechi - Ryu karate is the product and Aikido is the product.. this goes back to what i was saying before, it is difficult to get beyond that unless you create your own system. other wise Aikido is branded by the linage. oh its Satome Aikido,, its Saito aikido, Shioda or Tohei. in most cases the brand is already there. Villari karate, Cerio Karate, Morio Higaonna's IOGKF, Yamaguchi Goju-Kai, Gracie BJJ,,the list is endless. the brand, the name, the expectation is already there through the lineage. you cant put a brand on top of brand. if the marketing is to build up the "person",, first off your going to upset the establishment of the lineage. then its going to put the teacher in a serious position of questioning his credentials and his ability. the teacher would have to be really fricken good. otherwise the marketing is going to have the reverse effect and give you a bad reputation. everyone will be talking about you and your brand but not in a good way. you'll be sure to be flamed on the Bullshito sight.



EDIT: and the scale of Canfield and Maxwell and the rest is not comparable. they started with a framework of being internationally known. not the same if your just a guy who owns the local dojo. in order for the MA guy to do that he would have to start with that scale in mind and maybe write a book or become a YouTube sensation. thats all based on business model not marketing.. that was the point of my previous post.

Maxwell's product is his brand of leadership training (the motivational speaking is only him, AFAIK). That's a bit like Jeet Kun Do being Bruce Lee's product. It started out being backed mostly by his reputation, and his name is still probably a significant part of why some people get into the art. If he were alive, it would be easy to see how he could have several schools that he didn't teach at, except for some advanced classes, and the marketing would include something about all the instructors being "personally trained by Bruce Lee", which effectively scales his reputation.

It's certainly not entirely the same, and there are some issues, but there are definite parallels and examples of where it has worked in some ways. Remember that the Gracies started from Judo (then often called Jiu-jutsu), and branded their reinterpretation of it. I advertise that I teach NGA, but there's no reason I have to. I could easily market Shojin-ryu, Seymour Combatives, or whatever branding would work. Most of us only use the style name because it communicates to prospective students who happen to already know some style names, and allows us to stay linked to some larger community. The average student doesn't know what Kyokushin, NGA, or most other arts/styles actually are, so it's likely not important to branding. The exception right now would be Muay Thai and BJJ/GJJ. Those have gained a brand-specific recognition among a significant portion of interested (even if not "informed") consumers. The rest of us might as well make up some words, for all the style name communicates to most prospects.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

EDIT: and the scale of Canfield and Maxwell and the rest is not comparable. they started with a framework of being internationally known. not the same if your just a guy who owns the local dojo. in order for the MA guy to do that he would have to start with that scale in mind and maybe write a book or become a YouTube sensation. thats all based on business model not marketing.. that was the point of my previous post.

I missed this - might have been replying when you edited. I agree entirely that it's not the same. For most of us, though, we don't have dreams of having 50 schools. So building a local reputation would be effective. We just need to be able to confer that reputation to some other instructors who can teach some of the classes, and perhaps open other schools for us.

 

[hoshin1600]

I missed this - might have been replying when you edited. I agree entirely that it's not the same. For most of us, though, we don't have dreams of having 50 schools. So building a local reputation would be effective. We just need to be able to confer that reputation to some other instructors who can teach some of the classes, and perhaps open other schools for us.

i would say for the most part students show up because they like YOU. they expect to be taught by you. i actually quit a Goju school because most of the classes where taught by who ever was the highest rank person to show up that night. i felt im paying good money, im not here to learn from a green belt. i have also had experiences where i or my instructor passed the teaching to another and people stopped coming.
i also had an issue with another one of my business where i did remodeling and people expected me to be doing all the work and didnt like that i had to pass some work to others. their expectation was i was the one who was going to do the work. if a marketing company is going to brand the individual i think it is building the expectation that the student will be learning from you. this is why i would never brand myself personally and also why i dont want to build my brands reputation on a "style" other than my own. if its not my creation its not unique and can be found down the street at the "other" aikido/ karate school.

 

[WaterGal]

i would say for the most part students show up because they like YOU. they expect to be taught by you. i actually quit a Goju school because most of the classes where taught by who ever was the highest rank person to show up that night. i felt im paying good money, im not here to learn from a green belt. i have also had experiences where i or my instructor passed the teaching to another and people stopped coming.
i also had an issue with another one of my business where i did remodeling and people expected me to be doing all the work and didnt like that i had to pass some work to others. their expectation was i was the one who was going to do the work. if a marketing company is going to brand the individual i think it is building the expectation that the student will be learning from you. this is why i would never brand myself personally and also why i dont want to build my brands reputation on a "style" other than my own. if its not my creation its not unique and can be found down the street at the "other" aikido/ karate school.

I think that students show up because they expect to be taught to by a qualified instructor who teaches the way you do, whether that's you or someone you've trained in teaching your instructional method & lesson plans. The problem is when the instructing is passed off to anyone who showed up with a decent rank, but who hasn't been taught how to teach.

 

[martialartsnerd]

there is a fatal flaw in personal branding, its not scalable. a successful school does not require the owner to teach every class everyday. in fact its just the opposite. one of the issues i see as i read many of these posts is your wanting to apply a modern marketing model but that would need a prerequisite of a modern business model for the school, which is rare. the bulk of martial schools are still using the same business model that was established in the 1950's or earlier.

....In fact many of the qualities we consider McDojo hallmarks and really just good, modern business practices (AKA...amenities or additional services and conviences)

That's fair. It's part of why I decided to take a look at examples OUTSIDE the industry, but you're right in that McDojos are being run with good business acumen. So I'm trying to go for a JKD approach to the business side of things. If I can find a way to help schools simplify, make money, and teach legitimate stuff, then I'll consider my mission accomplished.

 

[martialartsnerd]

I'd be careful equating money with "McDojo" (though that is where many of us tend to go). "McDojo" is a vague term - there is little real agreement on how to identify one. I think it best fits Justice Stewart's comment in Jacobellis v. Ohio: "I know it when I see it". The place I'd be most likely to call a McDojo around me is not huge. It's successful, but has been in the same small storefront for decades, so isn't that big. I think the training and abilities produced are laughable, but the students are happy. He's serving the desires of his market. The group I'd have thrown that epithet at back in my old hometown was more an early XMA-style dojo. They made more money, but they also produced better skills (though some of those skills aren't fighting skills). They, too, served their market well.

Rare in my experience is the school that's actually fleecing the sheep. The issue for instructors like me is that we want serious students from day one (which doesn't really exist - those who seem most serious often are among the least committed). We need to learn to recognize the right pool of candidates, attract and retain enough of them, and price our services appropriately so we can earn what we need. It's my experience that railing against the other schools (including the McDojos of the world) takes our focus off our own faults. Basically, we blame our failure on their success.

That's fair. And that's true! Basically, everything I'm trying to accomplish, so it does fall down to a focus on what's wrong with the GOOD schools rather than the SUCCESSFUL schools. I think I have to re-research what the hell's going on there.

 

[Michele123]

I don’t have a school. I only ran one very briefly in college and I ran it as a club. I taught but didn’t charge. So my experience in this area is slight. However, I’m very interested in this topic.

That said, what if the problem is simply that most people aren’t interested in the product? Most people who pick up MA don’t look for a good school. They look for a place they can have fun and feel good about themselves. Actual fighting skills are just an incidental they may or may not acquire.

 

[martialartsnerd]

I don’t have a school. I only ran one very briefly in college and I ran it as a club. I taught but didn’t charge. So my experience in this area is slight. However, I’m very interested in this topic.

That said, what if the problem is simply that most people aren’t interested in the product? Most people who pick up MA don’t look for a good school. They look for a place they can have fun and feel good about themselves. Actual fighting skills are just an incidental they may or may not acquire.

While there certainly are people who look for that, then all that means is that the martial arts school is attracting them through their marketing. I feel that the main issue would have to be that, because the business model has been stagnant for the last six decades for most styles, schools, and instructors, a revitalization is necessary from the ground up. And sometimes, the best ideas come from outside the industry, especially when the industry's practices have been rendered obsolete by technological progress as well as a high demand for technical expertise in areas beyond martial arts instruction and fundamental business practices.

EDIT: While demand is low for now, I think it's because a lot of martial arts schools market the exact same way, which: 1. limits their reach, 2. reaches non-ideal clientele, and 3. becomes a negative feedback loop for the school which either forces the school to become a McDojo or rolls them out of business.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

i would say for the most part students show up because they like YOU. they expect to be taught by you. i actually quit a Goju school because most of the classes where taught by who ever was the highest rank person to show up that night. i felt im paying good money, im not here to learn from a green belt. i have also had experiences where i or my instructor passed the teaching to another and people stopped coming.
i also had an issue with another one of my business where i did remodeling and people expected me to be doing all the work and didnt like that i had to pass some work to others. their expectation was i was the one who was going to do the work. if a marketing company is going to brand the individual i think it is building the expectation that the student will be learning from you. this is why i would never brand myself personally and also why i dont want to build my brands reputation on a "style" other than my own. if its not my creation its not unique and can be found down the street at the "other" aikido/ karate school.

I'd say that's true, but not necessarily of the chief instructor. When I returned to NGA after leaving for about a year, the school had changed hands, and I had no real opinion on any of the instructors then teaching (the previous CI had personally taught all of his classes). The days I wanted to attend were taught by an associate instructor (there were at least two others also teaching classes), and I trained under him until he left the school, and I trained directly under the CI. Later (after the school changed hands again), when I was an instructor there, there were three of us who taught classes regularly, besides the CI. We each had our classes we taught (so not just whoever showed up to teach), and our students tended to prefer their primary instructor over any of the others - usually including the CI. People want to come and train under the same person (or people, in some cases), but my experience has been that the CI only has slightly more draw than the other instructors (assuming they are all good instructors), and much of that is probably chalked up to rank and/or how much the other instructors refer and defer to the CI.

You are correct that if you change instructors, there will be some loss of students. There are psychological reasons I can give for that, but they're not really important to the point. That loss can be mitigated some if there's a good hand-off. If classes are co-taught for a while, so students are very used to the other instructor, there's less loss because there's less of a sense of change.

So, yes, there's some risk in branding around an individual. For some of us, that risk is minimal (there's nobody else to teach mine, and "success" for me would be having 20-30 students to teach). For others, it's a risk that can be mitigated and managed, and is is probably less of a risk to the school than simply not having enough students.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don’t have a school. I only ran one very briefly in college and I ran it as a club. I taught but didn’t charge. So my experience in this area is slight. However, I’m very interested in this topic.

That said, what if the problem is simply that most people aren’t interested in the product? Most people who pick up MA don’t look for a good school. They look for a place they can have fun and feel good about themselves. Actual fighting skills are just an incidental they may or may not acquire.

I'd say we all - even those looking for a good school - are looking for fun and enjoyment, as we define it. You make a good point. Perhaps part of our problem - those of us teaching for "serious" purposes (and we sometimes take ourselves too seriously) aren't projecting much fun. That's probably true of my marketing, and my classes actually then to be quite fun. Perhaps that's one reason why competition/sport schools seem to have better success at marketing: for people who want to compete, the "fun" is pretty clear.

I think I need to rethink my branding.

 

[martialartsnerd]

I'd say we all - even those looking for a good school - are looking for fun and enjoyment, as we define it. You make a good point. Perhaps part of our problem - those of us teaching for "serious" purposes (and we sometimes take ourselves too seriously) aren't projecting much fun. That's probably true of my marketing, and my classes actually then to be quite fun. Perhaps that's one reason why competition/sport schools seem to have better success at marketing: for people who want to compete, the "fun" is pretty clear.

I think I need to rethink my branding.

It's like we went over our phone conversation, the community is a MAJOR aspect of the martial arts, and being able to market the hell outta that? That'll go a long way to getting committed students in the door, and it can start with the impersonal interactions where the student's still in the earlier steps of the funnel that I mentioned.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's like we went over our phone conversation, the community is a MAJOR aspect of the martial arts, and being able to market the hell outta that? That'll go a long way to getting committed students in the door, and it can start with the impersonal interactions where the student's still in the earlier steps of the funnel that I mentioned.

Agreed, and not something I've ever put into my marketing. If you looked at my website, you'll see it's pretty serious on the front side (some more "personality" in some of the newer articles, but not much fun, even there). And that doesn't fully match the environment in my classes.

 

[martialartsnerd]

Agreed, and not something I've ever put into my marketing. If you looked at my website, you'll see it's pretty serious on the front side (some more "personality" in some of the newer articles, but not much fun, even there). And that doesn't fully match the environment in my classes.

The best lessons are learned in the mistakes we make. At least with this lesson in mind, you can take the steps to showcase your school and you more honestly.

 

[evan.fedora]

Dealing with people who knew absolutely everything.