Biggest Issue When You Started A School

[pdg]

Hmm, that's fair. What does attract people to the martial arts besides price? In my case, it was all about the combat skills before it became something deeper, and for others, the initial draw lies in the community. For some others, it can be health benefits, and for yet more people, it could be the competitive aspect. What else draws people to our world?

To expand on this, price does nothing whatsoever to actually attract.

If someone isn't interested, it doesn't matter whether it's free or £5,000/month - you won't be getting them as a student.

All price can ever do is put people off.

I wanted to start because I wanted to. I found out I could afford to do it with the school I chose, so I did.

If I wanted to do it but found out I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't have joined.

Other people may feel I'm paying too much, yet others may feel that it's too cheap to be any good.

MA isn't something that people go and buy because of price.

 

[martialartsnerd]

To expand on this, price does nothing whatsoever to actually attract.

If someone isn't interested, it doesn't matter whether it's free or £5,000/month - you won't be getting them as a student.

All price can ever do is put people off.

I wanted to start because I wanted to. I found out I could afford to do it with the school I chose, so I did.

If I wanted to do it but found out I couldn't afford it, I wouldn't have joined.

Other people may feel I'm paying too much, yet others may feel that it's too cheap to be any good.

MA isn't something that people go and buy because of price.

That's true with the current business model, but given that I'm trying to change things up here, I'll have to consider every logistical angle as well. While you're right about pricing as it stands now, I still have a mission to accomplish. Seems like there's enough holes in this ship to make sure it never gets out of home port.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Hmm, that's fair. What does attract people to the martial arts besides price? In my case, it was all about the combat skills before it became something deeper, and for others, the initial draw lies in the community. For some others, it can be health benefits, and for yet more people, it could be the competitive aspect. What else draws people to our world?

Let's start with the "besides price" phrase. Price isn't an attraction in MA, and really only is (generally) to establishments with multiple areas of business (department stores are a good example) or to something someone already intends to purchase and considers either a commodity or functionally identical (so someone who wants "karate" might go with the cheaper of two karate schools they view as functionally identical).

In some industries, pricing is a differentiator - so people tend to expect products or services in that industry to have different qualities at different price points. This tends to be true of cars (Kia vs. Mercedes) and life coaching. I'm not sure there's that same perception in MA.

Here are the things I think attract people to MA in general, and specific schools, in no particular order:

• fitness
• fun
• community
• sporting competition
• learning to defend themselves
• the mystique of martial arts (a waning attraction)
• training with someone they know
• the reputation of a specific school (more prominent in competition or very well-known instructors)
• a "professional" feel (in marketing and visiting the school) - this can mean VERY different things to different people
• the 'hardness' or 'softness' of a school/style (why some people prefer Kyokushin Karate-do to Aikido, and vice-versa)
• personality of the instructor/greeter (once visiting/meeting them)

Here are some items that really mostly only rule out a school (not attractions):

• convenience (schedule and location)
• price
• "not like me" feeling (the sense that the people in the school aren't like you, so you wouldn't fit in) - this might just be the other side of the "community" concept
• don't feel welcomed
• pressure
• don't know what to do when they walk in (an issue with other businesses, as well)

 

[martialartsnerd]

Let's start with the "besides price" phrase. Price isn't an attraction in MA, and really only is (generally) to establishments with multiple areas of business (department stores are a good example) or to something someone already intends to purchase and considers either a commodity or functionally identical (so someone who wants "karate" might go with the cheaper of two karate schools they view as functionally identical).

In some industries, pricing is a differentiator - so people tend to expect products or services in that industry to have different qualities at different price points. This tends to be true of cars (Kia vs. Mercedes) and life coaching. I'm not sure there's that same perception in MA.

Here are the things I think attract people to MA in general, and specific schools, in no particular order:

• fitness
• fun
• community
• sporting competition
• learning to defend themselves
• the mystique of martial arts (a waning attraction)
• training with someone they know
• the reputation of a specific school (more prominent in competition or very well-known instructors)
• a "professional" feel (in marketing and visiting the school) - this can mean VERY different things to different people
• the 'hardness' or 'softness' of a school/style (why some people prefer Kyokushin Karate-do to Aikido, and vice-versa)
• personality of the instructor/greeter (once visiting/meeting them)

Here are some items that really mostly only rule out a school (not attractions):

• convenience (schedule and location)
• price
• "not like me" feeling (the sense that the people in the school aren't like you, so you wouldn't fit in) - this might just be the other side of the "community" concept
• don't feel welcomed
• pressure
• don't know what to do when they walk in (an issue with other businesses, as well)

Fair. This just makes me even more curious as to what happens when the business model used in coaching is applied to martial arts instead.

 

[pdg]

That's true with the current business model, but given that I'm trying to change things up here, I'll have to consider every logistical angle as well. While you're right about pricing as it stands now, I still have a mission to accomplish. Seems like there's enough holes in this ship to make sure it never gets out of home port.

I can't see any logical business model whatsoever that could use price (high or low) as an attraction.

However you market it, you can never say "you should do MA because it costs XX".

The only time that would ever work is if you decide that you want MA to be exclusive because of price, so you price it so high that only 10% of the population can afford it and use it as a "look what I can afford" deal.

Is that the type of student anybody really wants?

As I've said, price is important (high enough for the instructor to make a living, low enough for people to afford) but selling MA isn't like selling carrots.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Fair. This just makes me even more curious as to what happens when the business model used in coaching is applied to martial arts instead.

I share your curiosity. I see some bits here and there that seem to indicate it can transfer in some way, in spite of the differences in the consumers.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can't see any logical business model whatsoever that could use price (high or low) as an attraction.

However you market it, you can never say "you should do MA because it costs XX".

The only time that would ever work is if you decide that you want MA to be exclusive because of price, so you price it so high that only 10% of the population can afford it and use it as a "look what I can afford" deal.

Is that the type of student anybody really wants?

As I've said, price is important (high enough for the instructor to make a living, low enough for people to afford) but selling MA isn't like selling carrots.

Consumer decisions are routinely non-logical, PDG. It's pretty well-known among the coaching (life coaching, etc.) community that the lowest-price coach in any group has a hard time finding business. And once you learn to demonstrate value, it can actually be easier to find clients at $1,000+ than under $100. Why? I have no idea, but it works reliably and predictably within constraints.

We see a bit of the same with cars, though it's a different dynamic. A Mercedes is not objectively 2-3 times better than a Toyota. It's arguable whether it's truly better on any objective measure. But the right consumers eagerly pay much more for the Mercedes, and feel they're getting their money's worth. Some of the difference shows up in performance the buyer often never really uses. Some shows in the subjective measure of "luxury". Still more shows up in the subjective "status" area.

 

[pdg]

Consumer decisions are routinely non-logical, PDG. It's pretty well-known among the coaching (life coaching, etc.) community that the lowest-price coach in any group has a hard time finding business. And once you learn to demonstrate value, it can actually be easier to find clients at $1,000+ than under $100. Why? I have no idea, but it works reliably and predictably within constraints.

We see a bit of the same with cars, though it's a different dynamic. A Mercedes is not objectively 2-3 times better than a Toyota. It's arguable whether it's truly better on any objective measure. But the right consumers eagerly pay much more for the Mercedes, and feel they're getting their money's worth. Some of the difference shows up in performance the buyer often never really uses. Some shows in the subjective measure of "luxury". Still more shows up in the subjective "status" area.

There is very little of that which can be applied to MA though.

If you buy an expensive car for status, it's because people can see you have it. If you buy it for luxury, it's because you find it more comfortable.

I can think of quite a few objective measures that make an average mercedes better than an average toyota - unfortunately the owner isn't usually one of them...

The life coaching thing could have parallels drawn with MA, but not by me - I don't know anything about life coaching (I actually think it's another status type thing anyway, which would instantly explain why the more expensive ones get more business - happy to go more in depth as to why, pm me if interested).

Thing is, buying into MA isn't like buying a car and unless you just want the type of person that wears their belt shopping to show it off, it can't ever be marketed in the same way.

It's a long term lifestyle choice that demands ongoing effort and commitment, I really can't think of anything else similar.

It's not a product you pay for and stick in a bag to take home.

 

[dvcochran]

The tipping point is sooner than the suggested. The tipping point is ASAP. Only through outsourcing and delegation can a martial arts instructor even have the room to grow their school. Recruiting the outside elements doesn't have to be a permanent position at all, and can, in fact, be on a short-term contract as needed. But being able to get that outside help instead of soloing everything is a necessity for expansion.

I know of no one who has the means to do this, but say I did and woke up tomorrow and knew nothing about,,,, nothing would outsourcing and delegation make remotely any sense? A smart startup is a strategic and planned process. If I had the money to throw such an elaborate marketing campaign, I had better have the money to have adequate facilities. Secondly, if I did all this ASAP, how/where am I going to have instructors to handle the influx of people? I think you have a commendable idea. I just do not see the dots connecting. A lot of conjecture, but not a lot of substance. Outsourcing what? Delegating to who if you don't even have a class let alone a staff?

 

[dvcochran]

Group exercises dominate the side exercise spaces at a lot of YMCA's and such (to the extent that I can't get class space in many). In the Y's in our area, you can find tabata (HIIT based), zoomba (dance-based), step aerobics, P90X, POUND (aerobics while beating the air and floor with heavy drum sticks), yoga, and some others I don't know what they are called. I think a something like a group interval-based kettlebell class would be workable, though difficult for new students, so maybe well suited to a MA school environment.

I think, much like a MA class, people like the community of it. There's pretty much always someone slower, weaker, more flexible, prettier, clumsier, fatter, more muscular, etc. than you in every class. So we all get to feel "normal" within those groups. Most folks, once they get used to a given instructor and group, want to keep coming to that same class. If you change instructors, some folks will leave with them (either to follow them, or just because it doesn't have the same attraction it had).

In our first building I leased space to an aerobics class. I agreed to let them put up some cheesy painting and posters on the wall which were a distraction but it paid over half the mortgage payment so I could put up with it. Stayed there for five years and when the real estate economy had the boon of the '90's, made enough profit to build a small four rental strip with our new building on the end. The aerobics class was next door beside a dance school, beside an accountant. Worked out pretty well

 

[dvcochran]

While what you say about cheap price attracting not serious students makes sense on paper, that’s definitely not the case where I train.

The dojo I attend charges $55/month for adults and $45 for kids. No contracts, no hidden fees. We pay a $25 annual fee to our organization, and colored belt tests average about $50. Black belt testing is done by our founder at his dojo. That gets quite expensive (compared to our costs), but his dojo is a few doors down from the Flatiron Building in Manhattan, so we’ve got to keep the cost of him doing business realistic.

$125-$150/month and a 1 year contract are the norm for commercial dojos in my area, and non-commercial dojos typically run about $85-$100 without contracts.

We’re a small school run by a husband and wife team who both had very good day jobs and retired from them within the last 2-3 years. The dojo was never their career aspiration nor full time employment goal; it was simply a way to continue training after their direct teacher and the other local teacher in our organization had a falling out and both left our organization. Had those guys not left, they would’ve most likely enjoyed remaining as assistant instructors there.

The main point is we don’t get a bunch of bargain hunters looking for rock-bottom prices. In the 3.5 years I’ve been there, we haven’t had any clowns show up. We’ve got a solid core of dedicated adults. We’re very adult black belt-long term student heavy. We’ve got our share of kids, and they typically last a while too.

Your dedicated students are the best advertising you can have. Period.

 

[dvcochran]

The tipping point is sooner than the suggested. The tipping point is ASAP. Only through outsourcing and delegation can a martial arts instructor even have the room to grow their school. Recruiting the outside elements doesn't have to be a permanent position at all, and can, in fact, be on a short-term contract as needed. But being able to get that outside help instead of soloing everything is a necessity for expansion.

I would say your plan is 4-5 years after a successful school has opened. That is assuming large scale expansion in the plan.

 

[JR 137]

I can't see any logical business model whatsoever that could use price (high or low) as an attraction.

However you market it, you can never say "you should do MA because it costs XX".

The only time that would ever work is if you decide that you want MA to be exclusive because of price, so you price it so high that only 10% of the population can afford it and use it as a "look what I can afford" deal.

Is that the type of student anybody really wants?

As I've said, price is important (high enough for the instructor to make a living, low enough for people to afford) but selling MA isn't like selling carrots.

It really depends on where you live too. Around here (Albany, NY area), spending more doesn’t have that strong allure as “better.”

When I lived in Westchester County, NY and Stamford, CT (next door to Greenwich, CT), price was seemingly everything. The more expensive something was, the better it HAD to be. If you were charging $100 for something everyone else was getting $200 for, your product/service was clearly inferior. People demanded nothing but the best money could buy, and it was truthfully all just a shell. All the housewives and hotshot fathers had to one-up each other. If you sent little Johnny to the $150/month place when there’s a $200/month place right around the corner, you were obviously cutting corners. The $20/lesson piano teacher obviously wasn’t very good, otherwise he’d be getting $30 like the average guys, and the $50 guy obviously was on another level, otherwise no one else would’ve paid that too. The more you charged, the better you were, regardless of if you could actually live up to the perception.

No this isn’t indicative of everywhere, but it definitely happens some places. If you don’t know Westchester County, NY or Greenwich, CT, think rich suburbs of NYC. There’s no shortage of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, etc. dealers. There’s a place to buy any absurdly priced “premium” product or service you could ever want. In an area like that, a less expensive product or service is clearly a flawed one, and a more expensive product is clearly superior. And if they know it isn’t actually better, they’ve still got bragging rights, which in quite a few ways is actually more important anyway.

While it’s not to this extent everywhere, there are elements of it everywhere. Maybe contradictory to what I said about my current area earlier, but my dojo being less than half the price of commercial dojos raises some red flags with some people. Those people are most likely immediately thinking “why’s it so cheap compared to Master McDojo’s Black Belt Academy? What corners are they cutting?”

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I think his influx of adult students came from the facilities available. We had full use of the lockers, showers, and sauna. Most dojos have a small closet-like changing room; nothing like a full-scale gym typically has.

Showers and a locker room for sure,

At one point, I had three Dojangs in three adjoining counties. I suppose part of my thinking back then (1990's) was from my college sports days. I never considered NOT having partitioned dressing rooms and showers, and separate bathrooms.

A bit of a side question here I'd like to get people's input on ...

In 37 years of training a variety of martial arts, I don't think I've ever trained in a school that did have showers available. I may have visited one or two that did, but none of the places I trained at regularly had them.

In many of these classes getting absolutely drenched with sweat was common, so showers could certainly be useful.

My question is (for those who have run a dojo which included shower facilities): what sort of shower to student ratio would be appropriate and how much does that add to the expense of the facilities? If you have 20-30 students finishing up a class at once, then a single shower isn't going to be that helpful. People aren't going to want to wait in line for a shower if they could have driven home in the same time.

 

[dvcochran]

A bit of a side question here I'd like to get people's input on ...

In 37 years of training a variety of martial arts, I don't think I've ever trained in a school that did have showers available. I may have visited one or two that did, but none of the places I trained at regularly had them.

In many of these classes getting absolutely drenched with sweat was common, so showers could certainly be useful.

My question is (for those who have run a dojo which included shower facilities): what sort of shower to student ratio would be appropriate and how much does that add to the expense of the facilities? If you have 20-30 students finishing up a class at once, then a single shower isn't going to be that helpful. People aren't going to want to wait in line for a shower if they could have driven home in the same time.

I had two showers in the men's changing room and one in the women's. It was mostly used for day classes for people going to or back to work. I would estimate the % of students who used them were less than 20%. However, it is a positive seller when people are looking at your Dojo.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There is very little of that which can be applied to MA though.

If you buy an expensive car for status, it's because people can see you have it. If you buy it for luxury, it's because you find it more comfortable.

I can think of quite a few objective measures that make an average mercedes better than an average toyota - unfortunately the owner isn't usually one of them...

The life coaching thing could have parallels drawn with MA, but not by me - I don't know anything about life coaching (I actually think it's another status type thing anyway, which would instantly explain why the more expensive ones get more business - happy to go more in depth as to why, pm me if interested).

Thing is, buying into MA isn't like buying a car and unless you just want the type of person that wears their belt shopping to show it off, it can't ever be marketed in the same way.

It's a long term lifestyle choice that demands ongoing effort and commitment, I really can't think of anything else similar.

It's not a product you pay for and stick in a bag to take home.

I agree with all of that. My point was simply that people aren’t terribly logical in most of their purchases. Marketing is more or less the art of appealing to the non-logical part of the brain (system 1) to influence that decision.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I know of no one who has the means to do this, but say I did and woke up tomorrow and knew nothing about,,,, nothing would outsourcing and delegation make remotely any sense? A smart startup is a strategic and planned process. If I had the money to throw such an elaborate marketing campaign, I had better have the money to have adequate facilities. Secondly, if I did all this ASAP, how/where am I going to have instructors to handle the influx of people? I think you have a commendable idea. I just do not see the dots connecting. A lot of conjecture, but not a lot of substance. Outsourcing what? Delegating to who if you don't even have a class let alone a staff?

I don’t think we have to fear an overnight flood that would require a bunch of instructors. Realistically, for a new program it would just mean having a few more students on a regular basis, meaning we’d be able to afford (if desired) to pay for more outside expertise, or just have more pocket money. Eventually, it might lead to full classes and a waiting list. At that point, you’d either leave things as-is, raise prices to manage demand, or promote instructors to help manage more classes.

 

[martialartsnerd]

I know of no one who has the means to do this, but say I did and woke up tomorrow and knew nothing about,,,, nothing would outsourcing and delegation make remotely any sense? A smart startup is a strategic and planned process. If I had the money to throw such an elaborate marketing campaign, I had better have the money to have adequate facilities. Secondly, if I did all this ASAP, how/where am I going to have instructors to handle the influx of people? I think you have a commendable idea. I just do not see the dots connecting. A lot of conjecture, but not a lot of substance. Outsourcing what? Delegating to who if you don't even have a class let alone a staff?

Simply put, outsourcing things that the instructor doesn't have the time to become proficient at, whatever those skillsets are, whether it's marketing, accounting, etc. You're absolutely right in that a smart startup is a strategic and planned process, which is why I feel that it's necessary to "outsource your weaknesses" to other people who specialize in what you're weak in. And the influx of people is supposed to be handled by the earlier model for marketing that I put forth, with multiple tiered offerings and price point as a way to filter out those who can't commit. PDG raises a good point on the inevitable problems, but it's a risk I'm willing to take rather than leave it hypothetical.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Your dedicated students are the best advertising you can have. Period.

Is that always true? It doesn’t seem to fit the experience in JR’s post. In all my years, I brought two people into my instructor’s school - both girlfriends (one now my wife). That’s not much benefit over so many years.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I would say your plan is 4-5 years after a successful school has opened. That is assuming large scale expansion in the plan.

Outsourcing marketing (including SEO, etc) needn’t wait until then. Other areas probably ought to.