Biggest Issue When You Started A School

[martialartsnerd]

Is that always true? It doesn’t seem to fit the experience in JR’s post. In all my years, I brought two people into my instructor’s school - both girlfriends (one now my wife). That’s not much benefit over so many years.

Yeah, you raise a good point. Sometimes, even your most dedicated students would be absolutely subpar brand ambassadors. I can see them being GREAT brand ambassadors in a competitive circuit if they dominate the competition, and perhaps as assistant instructors, but I myself haven't been able to see this in action so apparently. In fact, the most dedicated martial artists can slip under people's radars and people won't even know that they're talking to someone who's trained in a certain art, in a certain school, under a certain instructor.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Yeah, you raise a good point. Sometimes, even your most dedicated students would be absolutely subpar brand ambassadors. I can see them being GREAT brand ambassadors in a competitive circuit if they dominate the competition, and perhaps as assistant instructors, but I myself haven't been able to see this in action so apparently. In fact, the most dedicated martial artists can slip under people's radars and people won't even know that they're talking to someone who's trained in a certain art, in a certain school, under a certain instructor.

Most of us don’t talk much about our training. And that seems to increase as we progress. I find explaining what I study difficult when talking to someone who doesn’t train, and it can get tedious.

 

[pdg]

I agree with all of that. My point was simply that people aren’t terribly logical in most of their purchases. Marketing is more or less the art of appealing to the non-logical part of the brain (system 1) to influence that decision.

This (and other things in the thread) highlight why I will probably never run my own school.

I cannot bring myself to view MA training as a commodity service and apply the same pricing or marketing psychology.

 

[martialartsnerd]

This (and other things in the thread) highlight why I will probably never run my own school.

I cannot bring myself to view MA training as a commodity service and apply the same pricing or marketing psychology.

It's a touch ironic, then, that we both view MA training as anything but a commodity, and arrived at completely different courses of action. I want to be able to proliferate MA in the best way possible, but I also want instructors to be able to quit their day jobs and focus exclusively on MA training, which is why I decided to take a page from the high-ticket coaching business models that exist and apply the marketing and pricing psychology.

Martial arts is a lifestyle choice, which is why I feel like pricing it as such and marketing it as such. The standard martial arts school these days, as gpseymour pointed out to me in a phone conversation, suffers from MASSIVE churn and if this model can help with that by: 1. expanding the school's reach through the digital space, 2. building a community through said digital space, and 3. establishing a system where the most committed can advance further in the ranks and find the means to compensate the knowledge of an instructor monetarily, then I'll consider my mission accomplished and scale the hell out of it.

I agree that, to an extent, you can't really put a dollar amount on martial arts. But given the value that I've gained from the martial arts, I feel it fair that instructors get paid handsomely BECAUSE they have such a large degree of influence on their students' lives.

 

[martialartsnerd]

Most of us don’t talk much about our training. And that seems to increase as we progress. I find explaining what I study difficult when talking to someone who doesn’t train, and it can get tedious.

It really is. And it's not even necessarily quiet confidence either. We're just from a completely different planet than the non-practitioner that it makes communicating a little tiresome.

 

[pdg]

It's a touch ironic, then, that we both view MA training as anything but a commodity, and arrived at completely different courses of action. I want to be able to proliferate MA in the best way possible, but I also want instructors to be able to quit their day jobs and focus exclusively on MA training, which is why I decided to take a page from the high-ticket coaching business models that exist and apply the marketing and pricing psychology.

Martial arts is a lifestyle choice, which is why I feel like pricing it as such and marketing it as such. The standard martial arts school these days, as gpseymour pointed out to me in a phone conversation, suffers from MASSIVE churn and if this model can help with that by: 1. expanding the school's reach through the digital space, 2. building a community through said digital space, and 3. establishing a system where the most committed can advance further in the ranks and find the means to compensate the knowledge of an instructor monetarily, then I'll consider my mission accomplished and scale the hell out of it.

I agree that, to an extent, you can't really put a dollar amount on martial arts. But given the value that I've gained from the martial arts, I feel it fair that instructors get paid handsomely BECAUSE they have such a large degree of influence on their students' lives.

The difference is that I would personally detest the notion of pricing people like myself out of the picture.

I would apparently be the type of student that you would rather never see - I turn up a lot, I put in effort, I constantly strive to improve my performance - but I don't have the disposable income to pay hundreds per month, so I'm nowhere near the ideal commercial student...

So, if your model was to become the default, I'd be stuck on the free book with possible instructional video access because of finances - and to be completely honest that, to me, is absolutely against everything the MA 'lifestyle' stands for.

Or just maybe, I'd be in the derided affordable mcdojo down the street and be the one that absolutely destroys the higher paying students in competition

When all is said and done, who do you want?

If you're taking from the general public (I have to exclude pro athletes, because they're a tiny proportion of the population) then on the whole you can have the ones that will lift you financially, or the ones who will lift you spiritually - it's a hugely rare case where you can get both in one pack.

 

[dvcochran]

Is that always true? It doesn’t seem to fit the experience in JR’s post. In all my years, I brought two people into my instructor’s school - both girlfriends (one now my wife). That’s not much benefit over so many years.

I think you underestimate the word of mouth that happens between friends outside class and casual conversation.

 

[martialartsnerd]

The difference is that I would personally detest the notion of pricing people like myself out of the picture.

I would apparently be the type of student that you would rather never see - I turn up a lot, I put in effort, I constantly strive to improve my performance - but I don't have the disposable income to pay hundreds per month, so I'm nowhere near the ideal commercial student...

So, if your model was to become the default, I'd be stuck on the free book with possible instructional video access because of finances - and to be completely honest that, to me, is absolutely against everything the MA 'lifestyle' stands for.

Or just maybe, I'd be in the derided affordable mcdojo down the street and be the one that absolutely destroys the higher paying students in competition

When all is said and done, who do you want?

If you're taking from the general public (I have to exclude pro athletes, because they're a tiny proportion of the population) then on the whole you can have the ones that will lift you financially, or the ones who will lift you spiritually - it's a hugely rare case where you can get both in one pack.

If the highest-paying students are getting demolished by a student going to a McDojo, then simply put, it reflects a lack of commitment., which would be surprising from people who pay top dollar. In either case, the argument itself poses what I feel is a false dichotomy. I'll stick to my plan, because if there are people who pay top dollar for a martial arts instructor to train them and they DON'T expect a massive shift in their lives, then damn, they're in for a rude awakening.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think you underestimate the word of mouth that happens between friends outside class and casual conversation.

If we aren’t talking, I can’t see how word of mouth occurs. It’s important, but isn’t always the factor we wish it were.

 

[dvcochran]

Simply put, outsourcing things that the instructor doesn't have the time to become proficient at, whatever those skillsets are, whether it's marketing, accounting, etc. You're absolutely right in that a smart startup is a strategic and planned process, which is why I feel that it's necessary to "outsource your weaknesses" to other people who specialize in what you're weak in. And the influx of people is supposed to be handled by the earlier model for marketing that I put forth, with multiple tiered offerings and price point as a way to filter out those who can't commit. PDG raises a good point on the inevitable problems, but it's a risk I'm willing to take rather than leave it hypothetical.

The things I mention are some of the proverbial good problems. But an owner is being ignorant with his time and will never grow appreciably if they think they can outsource on a large scale as a sustainable model. You are back to comparing a profit margin to a commodity. It isn't a complex model. You push outsourcing as if an informed instructor doesn't even know what to outsource. @gpseymour mentioned needing SEO at startup; The up and coming tier of instructors have moderate computer skills and website development skills before the graduate high school.

 

[dvcochran]

If the highest-paying students are getting demolished by a student going to a McDojo, then simply put, it reflects a lack of commitment., which would be surprising from people who pay top dollar. In either case, the argument itself poses what I feel is a false dichotomy. I'll stick to my plan, because if there are people who pay top dollar for a martial arts instructor to train them and they DON'T expect a massive shift in their lives, then damn, they're in for a rude awakening.

I think you may be. You have never met a self serving rich person?

 

[martialartsnerd]

I think you may be. You have never met a self serving rich person?

Met them? I was taught by one. No shame in getting compensated well for a job well done, but people who are willing to shell out that kinda money for a service tend to be looking to improve themselves if they're looking into coaching, so I don't think it'd be too much of a leap to apply to martial arts instruction.

 

[dvcochran]

It really depends on where you live too. Around here (Albany, NY area), spending more doesn’t have that strong allure as “better.”

When I lived in Westchester County, NY and Stamford, CT (next door to Greenwich, CT), price was seemingly everything. The more expensive something was, the better it HAD to be. If you were charging $100 for something everyone else was getting $200 for, your product/service was clearly inferior. People demanded nothing but the best money could buy, and it was truthfully all just a shell. All the housewives and hotshot fathers had to one-up each other. If you sent little Johnny to the $150/month place when there’s a $200/month place right around the corner, you were obviously cutting corners. The $20/lesson piano teacher obviously wasn’t very good, otherwise he’d be getting $30 like the average guys, and the $50 guy obviously was on another level, otherwise no one else would’ve paid that too. The more you charged, the better you were, regardless of if you could actually live up to the perception.

No this isn’t indicative of everywhere, but it definitely happens some places. If you don’t know Westchester County, NY or Greenwich, CT, think rich suburbs of NYC. There’s no shortage of Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bentley, etc. dealers. There’s a place to buy any absurdly priced “premium” product or service you could ever want. In an area like that, a less expensive product or service is clearly a flawed one, and a more expensive product is clearly superior. And if they know it isn’t actually better, they’ve still got bragging rights, which in quite a few ways is actually more important anyway.

While it’s not to this extent everywhere, there are elements of it everywhere. Maybe contradictory to what I said about my current area earlier, but my dojo being less than half the price of commercial dojos raises some red flags with some people. Those people are most likely immediately thinking “why’s it so cheap compared to Master McDojo’s Black Belt Academy? What corners are they cutting?”

The southeast is in an economic boom with an estimated moving (to live) in Nashville alone. We are less than 50 miles from Nashville. One consistent challenge I heard was the monthly price of the local gyms in our area. I was wondering if anyone else hears that in their local areas?

 

[pdg]

it reflects a lack of commitment., which would be surprising from people who pay top dollar

Unfortunately, that's exactly what you usually get.

The very fact they pay more seems to correlate with the level of self entitlement they feel. Like paying more means access to short cuts and special secrets.

You can't honestly believe that only those with fatter wallets are capable of commitment?

In fact, let's put it another way.

The poor person who is paying 10% of their income - are they more or less financially committed than the rich person who is paying 4 times the monthly fees but which only represents <2% of their income?

Top dollar to one person is absolute fantasy money to another is pocket change to another.

 

[dvcochran]

Met them? I was taught by one. No shame in getting compensated well for a job well done, but people who are willing to shell out that kinda money for a service tend to be looking to improve themselves if they're looking into coaching, so I don't think it'd be too much of a leap to apply to martial arts instruction.

Read @pdg 's last quote. Absolutely on the head of the nail.

 

[martialartsnerd]

The things I mention are some of the proverbial good problems. But an owner is being ignorant with his time and will never grow appreciably if they think they can outsource on a large scale as a sustainable model. You are back to comparing a profit margin to a commodity. It isn't a complex model. You push outsourcing as if an informed instructor doesn't even know what to outsource. @gpseymour mentioned needing SEO at startup; The up and coming tier of instructors have moderate computer skills and website development skills before the graduate high school.

I push outsourcing because I'd rather have great instructors focusing solely on delivering what they're damn good at, not from a position of ignorance. It's more of saving time for their absolute best, letting them do exactly what they love to do and getting well-compensated for it while leaving the rest to those who are just as specialized in those tasks as the instructor is in delivering quality training.

 

[martialartsnerd]

Unfortunately, that's exactly what you usually get.

The very fact they pay more seems to correlate with the level of self entitlement they feel. Like paying more means access to short cuts and special secrets.

You can't honestly believe that only those with fatter wallets are capable of commitment?

In fact, let's put it another way.

The poor person who is paying 10% of their income - are they more or less financially committed than the rich person who is paying 4 times the monthly fees but which only represents <2% of their income?

Top dollar to one person is absolute fantasy money to another is pocket change to another.

That's a fair point. But that's also why the rest of the tiered offerings exist in the first place. Starting them off with the freebie and then progressing them through the rest, regardless of financial status, is designed to let them know what they're in for if they pursue personal instruction. In this case, the problem is a lack of information and education on what the service entails, and uninformed consumers are the other issue that I wish to tackle with what I'm up to.

EDIT: it's education-based marketing, is what it is. By the time people get to the instructor, the idea is that they should be at least informed enough to figure out that what they're in for is a completely different shift in lifestyle and that it's gonna take work to get to that level. Obviously, it's not perfect, but that just means going back to the drawing board and making it work better every iteration.

 

[pdg]

That's a fair point. But that's also why the rest of the tiered offerings exist in the first place. Starting them off with the freebie and then progressing them through the rest, regardless of financial status, is designed to let them know what they're in for if they pursue personal instruction. In this case, the problem is a lack of information and education on what the service entails, and uninformed consumers are the other issue that I wish to tackle with what I'm up to.

But all that would serve to do is reinforce the social barriers, because what you call 'regardless of financial status' I call 'exclusivity through expense'.

It's no good telling someone they could get better training if they pay more if that payment is more than they can afford or even earn.

They're stuck with 'digital training', never being able to advance in your model because they can't afford to.

In fact, I think it would make the instructor's job harder because the lack of in person training would allow bad habits to be ingrained - if they transition from remote to personal training a lot will be undoing all the crap first.

So, they take their work ethic and thirst for advancement and improvement down the street to someone who realises that money paid doesn't equal commitment or success gained.

You say you don't view MA as a commodity, but with your tiers of access it looks very much like one to me.

Y'know, you can have the base model - or you can upgrade to leather seats and metallic paint...

Might as well just clip a price label on each belt colour and be done.

 

[martialartsnerd]

But all that would serve to do is reinforce the social barriers, because what you call 'regardless of financial status' I call 'exclusivity through expense'.

It's no good telling someone they could get better training if they pay more if that payment is more than they can afford or even earn.

They're stuck with 'digital training', never being able to advance in your model because they can't afford to.

In fact, I think it would make the instructor's job harder because the lack of in person training would allow bad habits to be ingrained - if they transition from remote to personal training a lot will be undoing all the crap first.

So, they take their work ethic and thirst for advancement and improvement down the street to someone who realises that money paid doesn't equal commitment or success gained.

You say you don't view MA as a commodity, but with your tiers of access it looks very much like one to me.

Y'know, you can have the base model - or you can upgrade to leather seats and metallic paint...

Might as well just clip a price label on each belt colour and be done.

Why not? The tiers of access are working fairly well for my school, anyway. The only shame is that my instructor is currently overseas, so there's no way for me to test or promote. There's always workarounds to a system like this, and even though I can't say this will fit everything in the martial arts, I can take what works and discard what doesn't.

 

[pdg]

Oh, actually...

There's another thing too.

So there's this place charging what I consider huge amounts, who don't consider me to have sufficient commitment because I can't afford their services.

I'm nothing if not a bit belligerent.

I'll go down the street to the cheaper place that the high income school classes a mcdojo, the one that's surely worse because it's cheaper.

Then I'll work my **** off - much like I already do - but I'll have the extra incentive of being able to show up the rich bunch, of being able to decimate them, of proving they're utterly wrong.

Brilliant, that'll be fun actually - I hope you succeed because then so can I