Belt whipping and kiss the dragon

[Buka]

Silly, probably, but it's ceremony for the sake of ceremony. Nothing to do with training. I don't subscribe to it, but was recently part of one - which I really got a kick out of. One of my long time students was being promoted, and part of that organizations ceremony was a hard front kick to the midsection after the awarding of the belt. They turned to me and offered a "voila" arm gesture. I thought it would be rude to decline.

I smiled, stepped up, looked to throw a front kick slowly, and immediately exploded into a really hard, step up side kick. (and I was wearing sneakers) Knocking my man into the crowd in the background. Cheap shot? Oh, most definitely, cheap as you can get. All in fun, though.

 

[Tez3]

Here is my opinion on it, especially if it's by choice. Either you choose to do it or you don't. I have mixed feelings about it. On one hand I would do it and on the other hand I want my daughters to eventually take Kajukenbo with me and being their protector I don't want them doing this. Sooooooooo I don't know

So, see how you feel when an instructor kicks your daughter in the stomach. I brought my daughter up to take no nonsense up from no one, she is bright, independent and a very good martial artist who can defend herself very competently without anyone trying to pull stunts like this on her.

Oh if anyone thinks this is a flinch response exercise... it's not. It's an exercise in egotistical bullying by the instructor and toadying by the students. I've done full contact karate kumite, I've been trained in riot control, and a whole load of other 'stuff' and never once did we have an idiot come up to us and kick us in the stomach, why on earth would they, we were adults.
Btw, Houdini died from being punched in the stomach.

Secondly, if this looks crazy, Kenpo may not be for you; because, they teach you all these techniques, where the attacker is always walking into a meat grinder, and you have a job to do, react realistically. That's right, you have to act, like you are in a play, while some guy really hits you. Standing there in a horse stance, is kind of lazy, really, but no different from the rest of your training

Because standing in horse stance is realistic........... roflmao.

 

[Paul_D]

All of martial arts is hazing. Nobody with a sane mind willingly turns up each day and gets punched in the face.

When in Kendo, Iaido or Judo do you get punched in the face?

 

[drop bear]

When in Kendo, Iaido or Judo do you get punched in the face?

Only done judo. And a
fair bit actually.

 

[Tez3]

If you think martial arts is 'hazing' then it shows your attitude isn't one of seriously training martial arts, rather it's an exercise in ego boosting for you. Winning doesn't always mean you have bested a training partner, if you've learnt nothing then you've lost every time.

We aren't talking about training drills here however, it's about the wanton abuse of students who trust an instructor. Why would you trust an instructor who kicked you in this way? If you tried it on most martial artists I know they would literally not stand for it, they'd block/move then take the fight to you. Why would you show off anyway that you could kick a student stood in ready stance, does the instructor think they are a dummy? Can the instructor not manage to strike someone who is ready for them and will strike back? Poor instructing skills by insecure children looking to boost egos.

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, see how you feel when an instructor kicks your daughter in the stomach. I brought my daughter up to take no nonsense up from no one, she is bright, independent and a very good martial artist who can defend herself very competently without anyone trying to pull stunts like this on her.

Oh if anyone thinks this is a flinch response exercise... it's not. It's an exercise in egotistical bullying by the instructor and toadying by the students. I've done full contact karate kumite, I've been trained in riot control, and a whole load of other 'stuff' and never once did we have an idiot come up to us and kick us in the stomach, why on earth would they, we were adults.
Btw, Houdini died from being punched in the stomach.




Because standing in horse stance is realistic........... roflmao.

As I said, it looks a lot worse than is really is. The students trust the instructor not to kill them like Houdini, because, they know he has control.

 

[Touch Of Death]

If you think martial arts is 'hazing' then it shows your attitude isn't one of seriously training martial arts, rather it's an exercise in ego boosting for you. Winning doesn't always mean you have bested a training partner, if you've learnt nothing then you've lost every time.

We aren't talking about training drills here however, it's about the wanton abuse of students who trust an instructor. Why would you trust an instructor who kicked you in this way? If you tried it on most martial artists I know they would literally not stand for it, they'd block/move then take the fight to you. Why would you show off anyway that you could kick a student stood in ready stance, does the instructor think they are a dummy? Can the instructor not manage to strike someone who is ready for them and will strike back? Poor instructing skills by insecure children looking to boost egos.

They won. They scared you. It is a show, for God's sake. Nobody goes to the hospital, although, one guy has put people in the hospital, but nobody invites that guy to promote, anymore.

 

[Tez3]

They won. They scared you. It is a show, for God's sake. Nobody goes to the hospital, although, one guy has put people in the hospital, but nobody invites that guy to promote, anymore.

Yep it's a show alright, it's a show of egotism. Let's face it any idiot can strike someone when they are standing still and not going to retaliate. Takes real guts to stand and strike a student who is going to say thank you afterwards lol. It's like kicking kittens.

The point about Houdini though is that he wasn't ready, someone punched him when he wasn't prepared and he died.

 

[JR 137]

First of all, this testing stuff is ceremonial. It only happens when you test, and it is for someone to watch, and either be impressed or horrified, hopefully both. I would rather do a flinch response drill, than fight twenty guys, but I guess I am just dumb, like you say.

I didn't say you were dumb, but who am I to change your self opinion? And I never said it was anything more than a ceremonial thing. I'd have some respect for it if it was actually a drill, like Sanchin body conditioning.

It's a show for the crowd and those involved. And a stupid one at that. A "look how tough we are!" show, hoping the crowd is envious.

Just so we're on the same page, you realize a 20 man kumite is 20 2 minute knockdown rounds against a fresh black belt every round, and not 20 guys at once, right? Not one of those stupid videos were a guy runs around and acts like he beat 20 guys at the same time.

I guess Kenpo isn't for me. When my test was over, my Sensei tied my belt around my waist, we bowed to each other, shook hands, and I took my place back in line. There was no crowd to amaze, horrify, or hopefully both.

My former school isn't for you. No sitting in horse stance and doing flinch response drills all day. But then again, doesn't fighting 20 fresh opponents in a row without a break in between (other than the few seconds for the next opponent to come over) cover flinch response?

Overall, IMO people's response to this ceremony has been taken way too far. All it is is a ceremony, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Tez3]

Overall, IMO people's response to this ceremony has been taken way too far

No, I'm sorry I don't agree, 'ceremony' isn't an excuse for bad behaviour. If we don't try to be decent human beings all the time what's the point.

 

[drop bear]

No, I'm sorry I don't agree, 'ceremony' isn't an excuse for bad behaviour. If we don't try to be decent human beings all the time what's the point.

I don't think you have the final say on decent though. I still don't see how it is any more indecent than sparring to be honest.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think you have the final say on decent though. I still don't see how it is any more indecent than sparring to be honest.

You don't see how hitting a person who is not going to defend themselves as indecent?
Would you walk up to a person in the street and kick them in the stomach for no other reason than you can?

 

[drop bear]

You don't see how hitting a person who is not going to defend themselves as indecent?
Would you walk up to a person in the street and kick them in the stomach for no other reason than you can?

I wouldn't walk up to a person in the street and just start sparring with them either.

 

[Tez3]

I wouldn't walk up to a person in the street and just start sparring with them either.

It would embarrass you when you lost.

No one walks up to people in class either and just starts sparring with them, first they have to be taught how to spar then they are taken through stages of sparring. You are being deliberately obtuse, at least I hope you are because you cannot honestly condone a culture where the instructor has such control over his students that he can just kick them because he can, that is verging on a cult.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I didn't say you were dumb, but who am I to change your self opinion? And I never said it was anything more than a ceremonial thing. I'd have some respect for it if it was actually a drill, like Sanchin body conditioning.

It's a show for the crowd and those involved. And a stupid one at that. A "look how tough we are!" show, hoping the crowd is envious.

Just so we're on the same page, you realize a 20 man kumite is 20 2 minute knockdown rounds against a fresh black belt every round, and not 20 guys at once, right? Not one of those stupid videos were a guy runs around and acts like he beat 20 guys at the same time.

I guess Kenpo isn't for me. When my test was over, my Sensei tied my belt around my waist, we bowed to each other, shook hands, and I took my place back in line. There was no crowd to amaze, horrify, or hopefully both.

My former school isn't for you. No sitting in horse stance and doing flinch response drills all day. But then again, doesn't fighting 20 fresh opponents in a row without a break in between (other than the few seconds for the next opponent to come over) cover flinch response?

Overall, IMO people's response to this ceremony has been taken way too far. All it is is a ceremony, nothing more, nothing less.

The ceremony is born out of body conditioning, although I'm sure you style is much better. LOL

 

[Touch Of Death]

You don't see how hitting a person who is not going to defend themselves as indecent?
Would you walk up to a person in the street and kick them in the stomach for no other reason than you can?

That isn't what is happening, in a test, and you know it.

 

[drop bear]

It would embarrass you when you lost.

No one walks up to people in class either and just starts sparring with them, first they have to be taught how to spar then they are taken through stages of sparring. You are being deliberately obtuse, at least I hope you are because you cannot honestly condone a culture where the instructor has such control over his students that he can just kick them because he can, that is verging on a cult.

You can't honestly condone a culture where people actively choose to beat each other up.

Sorry same thing.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I didn't say you were dumb, but who am I to change your self opinion? And I never said it was anything more than a ceremonial thing. I'd have some respect for it if it was actually a drill, like Sanchin body conditioning.

It's a show for the crowd and those involved. And a stupid one at that. A "look how tough we are!" show, hoping the crowd is envious.

Just so we're on the same page, you realize a 20 man kumite is 20 2 minute knockdown rounds against a fresh black belt every round, and not 20 guys at once, right? Not one of those stupid videos were a guy runs around and acts like he beat 20 guys at the same time.

I guess Kenpo isn't for me. When my test was over, my Sensei tied my belt around my waist, we bowed to each other, shook hands, and I took my place back in line. There was no crowd to amaze, horrify, or hopefully both.

My former school isn't for you. No sitting in horse stance and doing flinch response drills all day. But then again, doesn't fighting 20 fresh opponents in a row without a break in between (other than the few seconds for the next opponent to come over) cover flinch response?

Overall, IMO people's response to this ceremony has been taken way too far. All it is is a ceremony, nothing more, nothing less.

Sparring isn't a direct flinch response drill; so, twenty guys wouldn't improve the situation.

 

[Tez3]

You can't honestly condone a culture where people actively choose to beat each other up.

Sorry same thing.

That you think so says a lot.

 

[Touch Of Death]

No, I'm sorry I don't agree, 'ceremony' isn't an excuse for bad behaviour. If we don't try to be decent human beings all the time what's the point.

I'm making you an honorary white belt in Kenpo. I would give you are higher rank, but then there is all that pomp, and ceremony.