Whips?

[MaartenSFS]

Looks like a reasonable starter.
From the photo I can't tell if the handle and body of the whip are articulated. Good whips usually have a piece that allows the body of the whip to rotate to prevent twisting which gives a kind of "kick back" or unexpected "twitch" in its movement. Again, a good amount of practice with your own weapon allows familiarity and you develop your own gung in its usage. I also noticed that the "cracker" seems to be rope rather than leather. Hopefully it is easily replaced like the leather ones.

It probably isn't articulated and the cracker probably isn't easily replaced. I'm not expecting much for 80元 ($10.something), though if you look closely the quality of the leather seems good. Also, this is a Chinese whip, so I'm not sure why they would make it rope at the end. Leather is probably more brutal, perhaps rope is used to make it more of a "trick whip" and less of a real weapon? Anyways, for my first whip I prefer something like this. It is 2.5 metres long. Is this the right kind of whip to learn how to crack?

True... along with experimenting at wearing/concealing it if that is how you intend to use it.

Naturally. I carry my telescopic baton everywhere and "whip it out" when I'm sure no one is looking. If I make it an instinctive habit it will stick.

That will be somewhat dependent on the experience of law enforcement agencies in the area. Many parts of the US had "outlaw" motorcycle gangs whose members thought highly of carrying bullwhips and "blacksnake" whips.
This resulted in some restrictive legislation.

In general,it isn't a common tool or dress accessory, so it will cause "some commentary" at the least.

I don't intend to display it so openly. My meaning was more like: what kind of legal consequences could there be for using a whip to stave off an attacker and perhaps drawing some blood in the process?

 

[jks9199]

I don't intend to display it so openly. My meaning was more like: what kind of legal consequences could there be for using a whip to stave off an attacker and perhaps drawing some blood in the process?

It depends on where you are. Where I live, the question would first be if your actions were indeed self-defense. If so, the question next becomes whether or not the force you use is reasonable and appropriate to the attack. But... if your actions don't meet the definition of self defense, you'd be looking at a minimum charge of aggravated assault or malicious wounding.

Self defense laws vary greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and country to country. Any serious martial artist is more than well advised to spend some time learning the legal underpinnings of self defense in general, and how the principles are interpreted where they live and frequent.

 

[MaartenSFS]

It depends on where you are. Where I live, the question would first be if your actions were indeed self-defense. If so, the question next becomes whether or not the force you use is reasonable and appropriate to the attack. But... if your actions don't meet the definition of self defense, you'd be looking at a minimum charge of aggravated assault or malicious wounding.

Self defense laws vary greatly from jurisdiction to jurisdiction and country to country. Any serious martial artist is more than well advised to spend some time learning the legal underpinnings of self defense in general, and how the principles are interpreted where they live and frequent.

I agree with you, but which weapon would look better to the judge/jury: An assault rifle, a normal long whip, a telescopic baton, a modified cold steel sjambok (different type of rigid whip with a custom katana-like grip), or a large knife?

 

[CuongNhuka]

I don't agree with you on the meteor hammer. I believe that even if ones ability to use it was at a very high skill level that is would still have been nearly useless for actual combat. You have to remember that half of especially CMA styles were made up to scare more than fight. Intimidation can go very far.

As far as the tie: It's basically the same as a bandana and you were talking about tying them up, which is one of the major uses for bandanas, hence my conclusion.

About the belt I think it could be effective, though it depends on how you use it (I.E, Not like a meteor hammer).

And if they couldn't back it up, they wouldn't be very smart. And, therefore, probably knew some real fighting techniques. And again, if it couldn't be used a fight, they probably wouldn't bother to train it. And I know Shaolin trains in some whip-like weapons, and I doubt your going to say that shaolin is about intimidating your opponents.
And why wouldnt you use a tie as a controlling device? It's going to be more effective then trying to whip sombody with it

 

[jks9199]

I agree with you, but which weapon would look better to the judge/jury: An assault rifle, a normal long whip, a telescopic baton, a modified cold steel sjambok (different type of rigid whip with a custom katana-like grip), or a large knife?

Any or none of the above. Again -- the first issue is whether you were justified in ANY use of force, and then whether the force you used was appropriate to the threat. There are plenty of threads on this issue...

 

[Tez3]

I have really tried not to post on this thread, I keep skipping over it on the new thread thing but I can't help myself anymore! Whips! I have a house load of them, so's my daughter. We both ride horses in fact she's a jockey. We have long ones, short ones and middle sized ones and oh the jokes that inspires!!
I forgot this was an American site and spent ages wondering why someone would keep their pants up with a belt then of course the penny dropped, pants to you are trousers to us, pants to us are underwear. You see I knew I shouldn't have posted on here, it's just too easy for my mind to wander off... :whip1:

 

[MaartenSFS]

And if they couldn't back it up, they wouldn't be very smart. And, therefore, probably knew some real fighting techniques. And again, if it couldn't be used a fight, they probably wouldn't bother to train it. And I know Shaolin trains in some whip-like weapons, and I doubt your going to say that shaolin is about intimidating your opponents.

Actually, I would say that.

And why wouldnt you use a tie as a controlling device? It's going to be more effective then trying to whip sombody with it

I didn't say you wouldn't, but I also think controlling devices are highly prone to error and too slow for my tastes.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Any or none of the above. Again -- the first issue is whether you were justified in ANY use of force, and then whether the force you used was appropriate to the threat. There are plenty of threads on this issue...

I can understand that, but surely a weapon that isn't allowed to be carried in the first place, let alone used, would have more severe legal consequences?

 

[MaartenSFS]

I have really tried not to post on this thread, I keep skipping over it on the new thread thing but I can't help myself anymore! Whips! I have a house load of them, so's my daughter. We both ride horses in fact she's a jockey. We have long ones, short ones and middle sized ones and oh the jokes that inspires!!
I forgot this was an American site and spent ages wondering why someone would keep their pants up with a belt then of course the penny dropped, pants to you are trousers to us, pants to us are underwear. You see I knew I shouldn't have posted on here, it's just too easy for my mind to wander off... :whip1:

Don't worry. Everyone is allowed their rants and you are hardly the only un-American here.

 

[CuongNhuka]

I didn't say you wouldn't, but I also think controlling devices are highly prone to error and too slow for my tastes.

OK, ignoring the Shaolin hating, it sounds like your looking for some one to say, yes go ahead and carry a cat-o-nine tails, or bull whip. Well, if you feel you need to carry a weapon in any form (meaning somthing you're carrying for no reason other then a weapon), then it might as well be a gun. If you really feel that unsafe were you life, then why bother with a whip. Just carry a hand gun. In the end, your carrying something with the express intent of causing someone serious injury if not death. Then, you might as well go for broke.

 

[jks9199]

I can understand that, but surely a weapon that isn't allowed to be carried in the first place, let alone used, would have more severe legal consequences?

No... Seperate legal consequences. In a few cases, maybe a sentencing enhancement for use a firearm or something like that in commission of a felony. Typically, you'll have a seperate charge for the illegal weapon as well as the assault.

As to civil trials -- anything goes. There's very little predicting what a jury will do or how they'll view something. If I had to guess -- if you're carrying a concealed weapon, or blatantly illegal weapon, you'll have to convince the jury that you're not looking for a fight.

 

[MaartenSFS]

OK, ignoring the Shaolin hating, it sounds like your looking for some one to say, yes go ahead and carry a cat-o-nine tails, or bull whip. Well, if you feel you need to carry a weapon in any form (meaning somthing you're carrying for no reason other then a weapon), then it might as well be a gun. If you really feel that unsafe were you life, then why bother with a whip. Just carry a hand gun. In the end, your carrying something with the express intent of causing someone serious injury if not death. Then, you might as well go for broke.

Well, I wouldn't exactly say that. I don't feel unsafe or even paranoid. But, as they say, better safe than sorry. I will not carry a firearm or knife, though. I prefer blunt weapons where I have the choice or killing, maiming, or intimidation. It's more my character. I prefer to have an equiliser. Never get caught without one. I carry a telescopic baton everyday. The reason that I ask about the whip is that I thought it may be a more law-abiding alternative. Whips are also easy to carry (Except rigid whips) concealed or at least conveniently and while they hurt like hell, are less likely to kill the attacker (Which may or may not be good). And they are fun to play around with and I can always be confident that I am in control of the situation. This is my mindset.

 

[MaartenSFS]

No... Seperate legal consequences. In a few cases, maybe a sentencing enhancement for use a firearm or something like that in commission of a felony. Typically, you'll have a seperate charge for the illegal weapon as well as the assault.

As to civil trials -- anything goes. There's very little predicting what a jury will do or how they'll view something. If I had to guess -- if you're carrying a concealed weapon, or blatantly illegal weapon, you'll have to convince the jury that you're not looking for a fight.

Wouw, the world is more complicated than I thought. I suppose that it is better to be tried for assault with a legal weapon. At least I would only break one law, then. Though I'd rather be tried and sentenced than dead.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Rather be caught with it than caught without it. I thought you'd be pretty safe with your telescopic baton. Tried and true. If it ain't broke don't fix it. I know if someone used a whip on me and didn't debilitate me, it'd make me very sore and angry and I'd really have to hurt their feelings. If you get good enough to hit a moving target in the eye, I could definitely see it working well. I'd stick with the telescopic baton though.

 

[MaartenSFS]

If you get good enough to hit a moving target in the eye, I could definitely see it working well.

That's my plan.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Well boys... It has finally arrived. =D

The first time I went up to the roof to try it during my lunch break I just lightly threw it over my shoulder and almost took my head off. I immediately thought again, hung it over my shoulder, and went straight back to my apartment.

After work I watched about 50 free online videos and cracked it my first try. It was a little fart of a crack, but at least it would have injured something else besides myself.

After about twenty minutes I had already figured out another way to crack it. That is to pull it back along the ground very quick and then instantly pull it forward and over my shoulder. The crack was so loud that birds on another building cried out and flew away. That's when I got too cocky and grazed myself on the neck. Before I called it a day I could actually see where it was going and I was more or less "hitting" the same place everytime.

I haven't had so much fun in a long time and I believe that if one can get accurate and quick with a whip it would be a highly effective self defense weapon. It is also useful to grab it by the middle and swing the front in a figure eight pattern for close distance defense. I'm quite confident that I haven't even scratched the surface of this weapon's potential, but through trial and error I will discover whether or not it can be useful to protect (And amuse) oneself.

I do have several questions, though.

1) Can anyone tell me a website that shows or at least describes different cracking techniques? I have done a search with no good results except to buy books and DVDs, which is a hassle from China. =S

2) Is my whip (Link in one of my first posts) a bullwhip or other? It supposedly came from the Shaolin Temple and is a Chinese whip. It looks like the wooden handle is attached to the thong (Actually going in a ways). Then there is a shorter fall before the popper, which seems to be nylon, though I'm not sure.

3) If the popper is indeed nylon, where can I buy replacement poppers? Or is it easier to make them?

 

[bakxierboxer]

Well boys... It has finally arrived. =D

The first time I went up to the roof to try it during my lunch break I just lightly threw it over my shoulder and almost took my head off. I immediately thought again, hung it over my shoulder, and went straight back to my apartment.

Heh! "almost" is the operative word.
A not-so-hard-and-fast "rule of thumb" is that you should NOT be so afraid of the whip that you attempt to keep it "away" from yourself.
Using it in that manner causes it to "pull in" towards your body.
Conversely, allowing it to be close to your body allows it to "throw out" away from your body.

After work I watched about 50 free online videos and cracked it my first try. It was a little fart of a crack, but at least it would have injured something else besides myself.

"Gotta start somewhere."

After about twenty minutes I had already figured out another way to crack it. That is to pull it back along the ground very quick and then instantly pull it forward and over my shoulder. The crack was so loud that birds on another building cried out and flew away. That's when I got too cocky and grazed myself on the neck. Before I called it a day I could actually see where it was going and I was more or less "hitting" the same place everytime.

Cracking the whip has relatively little to do with its fighting use.
I have to guess that you've heard the term "laying it on"?
Full-length or shortened, use is mostly "laying it on".
A possible "scare tactic" would be to develop a "wall" consisting of perhaps 3 rapid-fire cracks of the whip in a vertical plane immediately (ok, 3 to 4 feet) in front of you.... mostly wrist action from the ground

I haven't had so much fun in a long time and I believe that if one can get accurate and quick with a whip it would be a highly effective self defense weapon. It is also useful to grab it by the middle and swing the front in a figure eight pattern for close distance defense.

Good.
"Fun" is important, since it'll encourage your practice.
Consider swinging (or striking with) the loaded handle rather than the lightweight "cracker".

I'm quite confident that I haven't even scratched the surface of this weapon's potential, but through trial and error I will discover whether or not it can be useful to protect (And amuse) oneself.

Lots to do and learn... some of it will always be according to your personality and capabilities.

1) Can anyone tell me a website that shows or at least describes different cracking techniques?

"cracking" is essentialy accomplished by moving your wrist to create an "S" that you "send" to travel the length of the whip.
Any possible way you can make/describe that "S" is a potential "way"/"gung" of/for cracking it.

2) Is my whip (Link in one of my first posts) a bullwhip or other?

It actually looks too light for much heavy use.... as against bulls.
OTOH, it can be much like a sheep dog... nipping at a herd of cows and encouraging them to "move along".... "that way".

Other "known" "professional grade" whips? There was always the old "Blacksnake" whip.... usually slimmer/lighter/longer than a bull-whip and more favored for performances.
Oh... yeh! It was usually jet-black in color. <g>

It supposedly came from the Shaolin Temple and is a Chinese whip. It looks like the wooden handle is attached to the thong (Actually going in a ways).

Sounds "low cost"... I'm not sure how long it's going to last.
Then again, "at the price".......

3) If the popper is indeed nylon, where can I buy replacement poppers? Or is it easier to make them?

The shipper should be the best source... just hope that the whole thing isn't a come-one so they can get you "hooked into " the actuall money-maker for them.

 

[MaartenSFS]

Heh! "almost" is the operative word.
A not-so-hard-and-fast "rule of thumb" is that you should NOT be so afraid of the whip that you attempt to keep it "away" from yourself.
Using it in that manner causes it to "pull in" towards your body.
Conversely, allowing it to be close to your body allows it to "throw out" away from your body.

Thanks. I'll remember that. Towards the ends I was getting a good crack in almost every time.

Cracking the whip has relatively little to do with its fighting use.
I have to guess that you've heard the term "laying it on"?
Full-length or shortened, use is mostly "laying it on".
A possible "scare tactic" would be to develop a "wall" consisting of perhaps 3 rapid-fire cracks of the whip in a vertical plane immediately (ok, 3 to 4 feet) in front of you.... mostly wrist action from the ground

As with most MAs, intimidation can go far indeed. A few cracks will get would-be attackers thinking twice, while an actual hit would be devastating. The wall that you are talking about sounds difficult, but &#28459;&#28459;&#26469; (Man man lai).

Consider swinging (or striking with) the loaded handle rather than the lightweight "cracker".

That's one thing that I picked up with the Sjambok, but I think my handle is too light to effectively use it as such. It would still hurt, though.

"cracking" is essentialy accomplished by moving your wrist to create an "S" that you "send" to travel the length of the whip.
Any possible way you can make/describe that "S" is a potential "way"/"gung" of/for cracking it.

That's basically how I got to the second "technique" from beginning with the overhead. I saw something like a side-arm crack on a video, so I'm going to try that out today. Looks like I'll probably hit my face. =P

It actually looks too light for much heavy use.... as against bulls.
OTOH, it can be much like a sheep dog... nipping at a herd of cows and encouraging them to "move along".... "that way".

Other "known" "professional grade" whips? There was always the old "Blacksnake" whip.... usually slimmer/lighter/longer than a bull-whip and more favored for performances.
Oh... yeh! It was usually jet-black in color. <g>

Sounds "low cost"... I'm not sure how long it's going to last.
Then again, "at the price".......

The shipper should be the best source... just hope that the whole thing isn't a come-one so they can get you "hooked into " the actuall money-maker for them.

It's not that light, actually, though I'm no expert. Measuring from the butt of the handle to the end of the thong it is 6 feet long and I'm not sure on the weight. From all of the descriptions I found it sounds like a Bullwhip, because it lacks the long handle with a keeper that the Aussie stock whips have and a Blacksnake whip has no handle, though it's possible that it is a special Chinese whip. It is also plaited different, in a checkred pattern as opposed to the normal way/s.

It was cheap as hell. 80&#20803; (7.7 EUROS, $10.4, without S&S) and my first whip, so I wasn't expecting a whole lot. I don't know about the shipper. I think he is just an MA accessories merchant and knows absolutely nothing about it. The leather is a little dry too, so I will read up on how to dress it.

 

[bakxierboxer]

Thanks. I'll remember that. Towards the ends I was getting a good crack in almost every time.



As with most MAs, intimidation can go far indeed. A few cracks will get would-be attackers thinking twice, while an actual hit would be devastating. The wall that you are talking about sounds difficult, but &#28459;&#28459;&#26469; (Man man lai).

I almost forgot... the loudest & most impressive cracks are done by "laying the whip out forward" and "stopping" your arm/wrist to "send" a "c"-shape down the whip.... it's "different" and recoil/recovery for successive moves is more difficult.

That's one thing that I picked up with the Sjambok, but I think my handle is too light to effectively use it as such. It would still hurt, though.

Operative question is if it's harder than your fist. It's pretty certain that "hitting wrong" with it won't be the direct cause of any pain to yourself.

That's basically how I got to the second "technique" from beginning with the overhead. I saw something like a side-arm crack on a video, so I'm going to try that out today. Looks like I'll probably hit my face. =P

Good luck with that.

It's not that light, actually, though I'm no expert. Measuring from the butt of the handle to the end of the thong it is 6 feet long and I'm not sure on the weight. From all of the descriptions I found it sounds like a Bullwhip, because it lacks the long handle with a keeper that the Aussie stock whips have and a Blacksnake whip has no handle, though it's possible that it is a special Chinese whip. It is also plaited different, in a checkred pattern as opposed to the normal way/s.

You mention later on that it's "dry"... sounds "light" to me.
I used to use Neat's Foot Oil... it'll suck up quite a bit if it's dry, and it can get so "wet" that it also renders it unusable for some time.
The definitions you've run across aren't hard and fast, since there is nothing that says a Blacksnake can't have a handle.
IME, all the better grade whips have handles and rotators.
If the "keeper" you mention is a wrist-loop, that is not a standard on all whips, and I'd as soon remove it if my whip came with one.

It was cheap as hell. 80&#20803; (7.7 EUROS, $10.4, without S&S) and my first whip, so I wasn't expecting a whole lot. I don't know about the shipper. I think he is just an MA accessories merchant and knows absolutely nothing about it. The leather is a little dry too, so I will read up on how to dress it.

Almost sounds like you should simply put up a supply of replacment whips.
Oil a few and have them ready for use whenever you need a replacement.

 

[MaartenSFS]

I almost forgot... the loudest & most impressive cracks are done by "laying the whip out forward" and "stopping" your arm/wrist to "send" a "c"-shape down the whip.... it's "different" and recoil/recovery for successive moves is more difficult.

Yesterday it rained and I didn't have a chance to practise but I got a good day in today. I managed to get the S(I think)-shaped forward crack down quite well and started hitting a plastic pipe with great accuracy and a loud CRACK. That was quite satisfying. =D

I'll try the C-shape tomorrow.

Operative question is if it's harder than your fist. It's pretty certain that "hitting wrong" with it won't be the direct cause of any pain to yourself.

Good luck with that..

I actually only hit myself once today, but it was quite minor. At least when I was practising the forward crack. The side-arm... I have no ideas about it other than that I almost took off me head again.

You mention later on that it's "dry"... sounds "light" to me.
I used to use Neat's Foot Oil... it'll suck up quite a bit if it's dry, and it can get so "wet" that it also renders it unusable for some time.
The definitions you've run across aren't hard and fast, since there is nothing that says a Blacksnake can't have a handle.
IME, all the better grade whips have handles and rotators.
If the "keeper" you mention is a wrist-loop, that is not a standard on all whips, and I'd as soon remove it if my whip came with one.

Infact, now that I've done a lot of research about whips I have discovered that for whatever reason my whip lacks a belly. It is, in fact, a belly with no outer layer. I have seen some diagrams and it is plaited the same was as bellies. I guess you were right and that it is a light whip, though I was still able to crack it quite well. It didn't sound like a cannon, though. I may try to apply some dressing later and I'll need to replace the cracker as well.

The keeper I was reffering to is common on stock whips and holds the handle and the thong together. Mine lacks that (The handle is imbedded into the thong) and a wrist loop. I'm not sure what a rotator is, but it probably doesn't have that.

Almost sounds like you should simply put up a supply of replacment whips.
Oil a few and have them ready for use whenever you need a replacement.

I think that sounds like a great idea, but I have one question, then. Is the whip that I have suitable enough that I want to buy more? They are cheap, but is the quality also low? I know that cracks are as much the whip as the technique. Until I know that, I may have to make several more purchases.