Belt Revoked...did my brains go too?

[Bob Hubbard]

I've read a fair number of threads where someone has a falling out with their organization/school/instructor, and the end result is someone has their rank revoked.

Sometimes, there seems to be solid reasons, as in the case of the child molester who was ejected from his organization after conviction. Sometimes it's over money or personality conflicts. An easy dozen reasons are out there in different places.

But, what does it really mean?


To me, it simply means "I/This Organization, no longer recognize you as a member in good standing, nor consider your rank in this group active."

You still have the knowledge. You can still hopefully demonstrate technical mastery. You still have that which you learned. That, can't be taken away.

Right?




Thoughts? (I'm leaving this post unfinished on purpose.

)

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Are we talking about anybody, or just you Bob?

 

[bushidomartialarts]

Revocation of rank is as symbolic as rank itself. Of course it doesn't take away skill, any more than rank is a reliable objective measure of skill (especially up in the higher dans).

As you say, revocation is simply saying "this organization can no longer in good conscience support you as a martial artist". Either that or "I hate you, you poopyhead and I don't want to play with you anymore!"

Sadly, it's usually the latter.

 

[scottcatchot]

I have to agree that it is more of a we recognize you or don't recognize you. Your skills and knowledge can't be taken away...Unless they send the thought ninjas out to use the dreaded brain sucker move on you:uhohh:

 

[stone_dragone]

I know that in my students cases, the information that they have is actually digitaly imprinted on their belt. When they go through the doctor's screening, I have them retro-fitted with digital info readers near their navel. When I toss some one out of my class, I keep their belt and they, effectively, lose all of their knowledge related to what I was teaching them.

The system works pretty well. I try to have my teenagers not study school material while waiting for class because I don't want them to lose that stuff too, should they choose to stop practicing with me.

...but everywhere else, its probably just the "poopyhead" thing and you'll be alright.

 

[stickarts]

That is my view also. If i were to revoke someones rank in my school, it would mean that they either severely abused what we have taught them or they in some way have seriously not represented us appropriately.
Skill, experience , and knowledge cannot be taken away. Revoking rank would mean we do not condone what they did and we are not affiliated with them and they don't have recognized ranking in our school.

I have not revoked ranking to date, however, just knowing it is possible has kept some students on the straight and narrow and that in and of itself has been a good thing.

 

[Phoenix44]

If you wash your belt, all your knowledge and skill goes away.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Are we talking about anybody, or just you Bob?

Anyone. As far as I know, all my ranks are intact.

 

[SFC JeffJ]

Anyone. As far as I know, all my ranks are intact.

Sorry Bob, I was going for a cheap laugh. Apparently it didn't work like most don't.

Jeff

 

[Jade Tigress]

If i were to revoke someones rank in my school, it would mean that they either severely abused what we have taught them or they in some way have seriously not represented us appropriately.
Skill, experience , and knowledge cannot be taken away. Revoking rank would mean we do not condone what they did and we are not affiliated with them and they don't have recognized ranking in our school.

What he said, can't add to that.

 

[ArmorOfGod]

There is an excellent article about this in the Jan. 2005 issue of Black Belt mag by Keith Vargo that says that your rank can not be removed or cancelled because you went solo or dropped from the group. It was given to you to represent your knowledge. You still have that knowledge, so you still are that rank.
Now, that article really covers the issue of not paying associational dues, but doesn't get into things like commiting a crime as a reason for revoking rank.

AoG

 

[shesulsa]

Okay, but ...

Let's say you don't know much about martial arts and you want to sign up your kid for lessons. You do so and, after a few years your kid is ready to test for a high color rank or for black belt, and you somehow and quite suddenly come into the knowledge that his/her teacher has had his/her rank "revoked" by his/her instructor or is no longer recognized as ranking in his/her former organization.

Would you still have the same opinion?

How do you come to the truth in the situation, -or- how does a lay person or a martial arts newbie discover the truth about said person? Doesn't it then become a matter of he-said-she-said? And what would you do if you couldn't discover *the truth*? Change schools/instructors and ... start ... all ... over???

 

[shesulsa]

And here's another:

How about those "judicial committees" or "Peer Review Boards" that some arts have internally? What weight do they really have? Are they lawyers? High-ranking black belts?

Do you really think the average Joe or Jane is going to take the time to consider the possibility of politics, sour grapes, membership dues unpaid, unrealistic contracts, etcetera?

 

[Tames D]

I've never heard of anyone being stripped of their rank and then stopped wearing that rank. Still wear the rank but no longer belong to the Association?

 

[stickarts]

Okay, but ...

Let's say you don't know much about martial arts and you want to sign up your kid for lessons. You do so and, after a few years your kid is ready to test for a high color rank or for black belt, and you somehow and quite suddenly come into the knowledge that his/her teacher has had his/her rank "revoked" by his/her instructor or is no longer recognized as ranking in his/her former organization.

Would you still have the same opinion?

How do you come to the truth in the situation, -or- how does a lay person or a martial arts newbie discover the truth about said person? Doesn't it then become a matter of he-said-she-said? And what would you do if you couldn't discover *the truth*? Change schools/instructors and ... start ... all ... over???

For me it would depend upon the reason that rank was allegedly revoked.
Being revoked for not paying a dues is quite different than being revoked for a horrible crime being committed!
Beyond that, I try and form my own opinions about people. Competitors may not give a fair and accurate reputation about someone so I go by what my experiences have been.
From my own experience, often times someone is not as good as some of their greatest supporters have said or as bad as some of their greatest critics have said.

 

[stone_dragone]

I suppose also that the question would depend on what the rank is. In many systems there is a point that rank is no longer technical and instead leadership based (i.e. last technical rank being Godan).

If a 7th has his rank "revoked," I'd imagine that they wouldn't be completely rank-less, only the last technical rank.

Nevermind, that would remove egos to far from the equation.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I had a student that took many questionable actions that were, let's say, dishonorable. I was one of the many people who were the targets of his actions, but compared to others, I guess I got off easy. My instructors stripped him of his rank and at the time, I had mixed feelings about it. I understood why they did it, but I was a bit uncomfortable with the concept. The way they put it to me was that (in their view) it was similar to an attorney being disbarred. The lawyer does not lose their knowledge, but they are no longer considered worthy of the professional designation by the ones who qualified them in the first place.

BTW, I became much more comfortable with my instructors decision two years later when my former black belt student confessed to and was then convicted of the rape of a ten year old.

 

[kidswarrior]

Presumably to achieve a certain rank--let's say 1st Dan--one would have to go through all the steps: hours/years of training, novice levels, BB pretests and test, and then after successfully completing all requirements, be certified by an organization (unless I'm missing something?). In education, we might say this is analagous to getting a university degree. Once said degree is conferred, unless it is later proven the graduate cheated, to my knowledge it cannot be revoked--even for a later crime, and especially not for something lesser like trash talking the institution, or whatever. The institution and the conferee may come to dislike, even hate each other later, but the degree stands. Given and received in good faith, how could it be revoked? I see ranking the same way. Now if this happened in an academic setting, I certainly wouldn't pursue a higher degree in this now hostile environment. Would be time to search for a new school. But I'd take my degree with me to build on.

 

[BlackCatBonz]

Let's say a guy who was a really crappy martial artist, managed to fake his way to a 10th dan. A feat for sure.
Now this guy totally sucked, and most martial arts people see it, except for the people that he's been shystering money from for the 11 years or so he's been studying.

So the guy issuing the the judan realises his error and strips away the rank.
Now the guy never had the knowledge in the first place.......but he says, once you give a rank, you cant take it back....I will always be a tenth degree grandmaster and I'm only 36....hahahaha.

A grandmaster of what.....fooling people that never met you into giving you an advanced rank you dont deserve?

this is the kind of rank revocation I think of when i hear of it being taken away.

 

[Cirdan]

Where I train ranks are not permanent until 1. Dan. If you quit training for a year and then come back you will likely be wearing a lower belt until the instuctor is satisfied you are back at your former level. Dan ranks are able to train themselves and are not subject to this.

Revoking belts over other issues sounds a bit strange to me. Throw them out yes but a belt rank is something you are, not something you have.