Belt Rank Progress

[PhotonGuy]

I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't get what your saying here. How is it a big jump from brown belt to black belt? And is it an American problem?

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[JiuJiuBJJ]

I also don't understand what you're saying. Or which discipline you're talking about. In BJJ there are only 5 belts, including white and black, and so there are absolutely big leaps between them (though between white and blue - much less overall).

 

[rlobrecht]

At the TKD school I used to attend, the last colored belt to black was a slightly bigger jump than the progression from one colored belt to the next, in terms of new material. But the test was much harder, and you had to demonstrate all the material learned to date. With the colored belt tests, only the high belts had to demonstrate any lower belt material, and it was only 1 early pattern.

This makes sense to me.

 

[Rich Parsons]

I've been thinking, when it comes to belt ranks, going from one belt to another can sometimes be a big jump. In the USA you see this particularly with the black belt where the black belt is often put on a pedestal and the jump from brown to black can sometimes be a really big jump. Should it be done like that or perhaps belt rank should just be sequential where there are no big jumps from one belt to another including from brown to black. Much like in school, with some classes that you might take such as History, that you start with History 1 and than each proceeding semester you then take History 2, History 3, and then History 4. History 4 isn't necessarily and harder than History 3, History 2, or History 1, its just sequential and builds on the knowledge gained from the first three courses.

Education has kindergarten to 12 th grade. Until you complete all the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have a high school diploma. You can gradually step up to it with each grade and each class. But until you complete the requirements for a High School Diploma you do not have one. The high school diploma is a big step from nothing. Jobs require a High school diploma or GED. The GED is for those who study and then take a test to qualify for the requirements for a High School diploma. Yet it still does not have the same feeling to it.

So the perceived step form Brown to Black is real as until you meet the requirements to be a black belt you are not one.

 

[Takai]

So the perceived step form Brown to Black is real as until you meet the requirements to be a black belt you are not one.

But wouldn't that apply to any belt level? Until you meet the requirements you aren't an XXX belt.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Not all, but lots of the dojos have the brown belt as the belt rank right before black belt. Sometimes, a dojo might have multiple levels for a colored belt, for instance, brown low, brown middle, brown high, and then black. What Im saying is that the step from brown high to black should not be such a big jump, it shouldn't be much bigger than the step from brown low to brown middle or brown middle to brown high, based on the knowledge, experience, and abilities of the student. Somebody mentioned getting a high school diploma and yes, a student will not get a diploma until they successfully complete their senior year. However, the jump from senior to alumni is not a big jump. As a matter of fact, the senior year is usually a lighter year than some of the other years in high school and usually its the junior year that is academically the hardest. So for a senior in high school to complete the year and get a diploma is not a big jump.

 

[Takai]

Not all, but lots of the dojos have the brown belt as the belt rank right before black belt. Sometimes, a dojo might have multiple levels for a colored belt, for instance, brown low, brown middle, brown high, and then black. What Im saying is that the step from brown high to black should not be such a big jump, it shouldn't be much bigger than the step from brown low to brown middle or brown middle to brown high, based on the knowledge, experience, and abilities of the student. Somebody mentioned getting a high school diploma and yes, a student will not get a diploma until they successfully complete their senior year. However, the jump from senior to alumni is not a big jump. As a matter of fact, the senior year is usually a lighter year than some of the other years in high school and usually its the junior year that is academically the hardest. So for a senior in high school to complete the year and get a diploma is not a big jump.

This same type of leveling occurs within all of the colored ranks. I guess I am still not seeing the point you are trying to make. It almost seems like you are contradicting yourself to try and make your point. Just my HO.

 

[oftheherd1]

In the TKD I studied very many years ago, and the Hapkido I studied many years ago, there was progression from white to black. There was not a sudden harder jump from brown (TKD) or red (Hapkido) to black. But attainment of a black belt signified a certain amount of learning, and that amount was significant. It took a certain amount of time and training to attain. That was what I always thought a black belt meant. I had put in that amount of training and achieved that certain amount of learning, that I was awarded a black belt. It signified that level of learning and ability.

Do you think it is of any significance that there are levels of black belt, but colors, at least in the two schools where I studied? Black belt was an acknowledgement that I had achieved that amount of learning. In the hapkido I learned, there was a great amount of learning from 1st to 2nd, and from 2nd to 3rd. I am sure there was the same between higher levels of black belt.

To the OP, have you found it different in the school(s) you attend or have attended.

 

[Rich Parsons]

But wouldn't that apply to any belt level? Until you meet the requirements you aren't an XXX belt.

Yes it does. Except at Black Belt many get to Teach and they do not teach before hand. While I know that is not true it is the perception. So many outsiders and beginners see that step as huge. Also the Black Belt Club, you might be the lowest one but you still get to sit at the black belt table.

That being said, it is a step and it may be large.

But it is not the different from the steps of the other ranks either. Just that there is this perception associated with this rank.

 

[PhotonGuy]

This same type of leveling occurs within all of the colored ranks. I guess I am still not seeing the point you are trying to make. It almost seems like you are contradicting yourself to try and make your point. Just my HO.

What Im saying is that, in some martial arts schools, from my own observation, going from the rank that's right before black belt to black belt is a big step. I heard of this one place where the black belt test took two days, whereas tests for all the lower belts including the rank right before black belt took about an hour or less. I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place.

To make an analogy with getting a high school diploma, if a high school diploma was a black belt, lets say that during your senior year you have to take ten classes and maintain a 95 or higher average in all of them in order to get a diploma. That is how its done in some dojos.

 

[James Kovacich]

What Im saying is that, in some martial arts schools, from my own observation, going from the rank that's right before black belt to black belt is a big step. I heard of this one place where the black belt test took two days, whereas tests for all the lower belts including the rank right before black belt took about an hour or less. I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place.

To make an analogy with getting a high school diploma, if a high school diploma was a black belt, lets say that during your senior year you have to take ten classes and maintain a 95 or higher average in all of them in order to get a diploma. That is how its done in some dojos.

Using your analogy, this isn't an American thing at all. Black belt testing is normally more involved world wide.

 

[clfsean]

What Im saying is that, in some martial arts schools, from my own observation, going from the rank that's right before black belt to black belt is a big step. I heard of this one place where the black belt test took two days, whereas tests for all the lower belts including the rank right before black belt took about an hour or less. I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place.

To make an analogy with getting a high school diploma, if a high school diploma was a black belt, lets say that during your senior year you have to take ten classes and maintain a 95 or higher average in all of them in order to get a diploma. That is how its done in some dojos.

I've been told mine will take about 16 hours & will be completely comprehensive of what I've learned vertbatim.

Then the fun starts --
All forms left handed (empty hand, weapons, paired).
Sanda as normal.
Sanda limited to techniques of a particular form only.
Sanda limted to left handed only.
Weapon sparring then left hand only.

I've also been told my instructor certification (years down the road) is over 40 hours. But there's LOTS involved with this outside of just the physical test.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Using your analogy, this isn't an American thing at all. Black belt testing is normally more involved world wide.

Not in the country of its origin. In Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt. Aside from being higher up in the ranking system, getting a black belt is no different from getting a green belt or a blue belt or any other colored belt, in proportion to your current skill and experience and what you've got to do to get it.

 

[frank raud]

Not in the country of its origin. In Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt. Aside from being higher up in the ranking system, getting a black belt is no different from getting a green belt or a blue belt or any other colored belt, in proportion to your current skill and experience and what you've got to do to get it.

And yet, at the Kodokan at least, there is still a significant time frame difference from brown to black, compared with white to yellow, brown, etc. So, yes, in Japan, Shodan is not seen as a level of mastery, merely a beginning of understanding of the art.


Taken from a thread on the old Judoforum........

"I started training at the Kodokan in July with my eyes toward improving my judo technically and possibly attaining shodan. Prior to this, I trained in the States for about 1.5 years at Cranford JKC. A few observations at the Kodokan school...

Kodokan does advertise that someone can go from beginner to shodan in one year (there is a large banner on the side of the building that advertises this!) It is possible but its not a cakewalk.

Even if you have 3 kyu you must start from the absolute beginning. Your first day is tying your obi and maybe a little ukemi. You do nothing but ukemi and uchikomi for three months. (No randori for three months!)

At the end of the first three months (you must attend at least 40 training sessions which usually translates to three months), you are tested on the first fifteen throws of the Go Kyo no Waza (mostly from the first two groups), some newaza, and ukemi in front of a panel of three judges for 5 kyu. You must know the names of the throws and execute then as the sensei calls them out.

If you pass this test, then you can do randori. After another month (with good attendence), you can test for 4 kyu, the same fifteen throws are judged more strictly along with ukemi and you must demonstrate some randori.

After you pass 4 kyu, you can participate in the monthly batsugun shia. You need to come to practice at least ten times that month in order to participate in the batsugun shiai. For the shiai, first you must do ukemi in front of a panel of judges, then you have two matches.

If you get two ippon you are promoted, but if your ukemi is judged poorly you do not advance (the ukemi judging is very strict). With this ukemi restriction, they can hold back.

From 1 kyu to shodan you need six ippon. This translates to attending at least three batsugun shiai (with a perfect record). Next, you need to do the nage no kata in front of a Kodokan panel.

Therefore you need to allot time to practice the kata. The sensei will help you but you must first get your six ippon.

So, with strong technical judo the first three months, good results for the two tests for 5 kyu and 4 kyu, a perfect batsugun shiai record, strong technical ukemi demonstrated throughout (with some good will from the judging panel), and great kata you should be able to manage shodan in a year.

Good Luck!!!"

 

[James Kovacich]

Not in the country of its origin. In Japan, the black belt is seen as just another belt. Aside from being higher up in the ranking system, getting a black belt is no different from getting a green belt or a blue belt or any other colored belt, in proportion to your current skill and experience and what you've got to do to get it.

Could you name some schools and styles because I'm not seeing what your trying express. American martial arts are very diverse can't be painted with the same brush.

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[PhotonGuy]

Could you name some schools and styles because I'm not seeing what your trying express. American martial arts are very diverse can't be painted with the same brush.

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I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt. This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me. My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.

 

[James Kovacich]

I don't know the name offhand but there is a school in North Carolina where the black belt test takes two days. You come in the first day and do all this stuff and then you come back the next day and do all this other stuff and if you successfully complete it and do all the stuff you've got to do well enough than you get a black belt. This is in sharp contrast to the test for the belt level right before black, the brown belt, which takes roughly an hour to take and complete and is much easier than the black belt test. Naturally the black belt test should be longer and harder than the brown belt test since it is a higher belt but for a black belt test to take two days and be much harder than a brown belt test which only takes an hour is quite an extreme jump if you ask me. My point is, should the black belt be such a big jump? Perhaps the black belt test should only be a little harder than the brown belt test and should only take maybe an hour and a half to complete, not two days. After all, with subjects in school, when you complete a course and go to a more advanced course usually the more advanced course is just a little harder, and in some cases such as with history classes, the more advanced class isn't harder at all but is merely sequential.

Oh so talking about the black belt test being more comprehensive? That varies between schools, systems... It could be argued that the longer more comprehensive bb test is required to cover everything you've learned.

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[oftheherd1]

Yes it does. Except at Black Belt many get to Teach and they do not teach before hand.
...

In the TKD and Hapkido I studied, advanced color belts would teach lower belts. But if you were talking about running their own schools, no. In the Hapkido I studied, you normally had to be a 4th Dan, and under a Grand Master to have your owl school.

..

I heard of this other place where to get a black belt, you had to spar all the black belts in the school and there were over 100 of them as this was a big place.
...

I think this used to be the norm in TKD. I remember being told by some who had studied in Korea, that they had to do so to acquire a black belt. But I think it was three, not every black belt in the school. They also had to make up their own black belt form.

 

[Rich Parsons]

In the TKD and Hapkido I studied, advanced color belts would teach lower belts. But if you were talking about running their own schools, no. In the Hapkido I studied, you normally had to be a 4th Dan, and under a Grand Master to have your owl school.



I think this used to be the norm in TKD. I remember being told by some who had studied in Korea, that they had to do so to acquire a black belt. But I think it was three, not every black belt in the school. They also had to make up their own black belt form.

Yes, Higher Ranked Colored Belts instruct and work with lower ranked Colored Belts. I was speaking generically to what some other systems do. And possible why the original poster was "seeing" what they were.