'Beliefs' in martial arts.

[jks9199]

!I want my own 'beliefs' to be as close to reality as possible. I truly not interested in 'bullying others'. I'm more about education and also challenging my own worldview all the time.

What are you basing your assessment of "reality" on?

I mentioned elsewhere that my experience, and that of others with direct personal experience of violence, has led to paring the techniques down to the minimum that will do the most. You seem obsessed with piling up huge stacks of techniques...

Are you familiar with the OODA Loop? It's a practical model of how we process situations. The four elements are Observe, Orient, Decide, and Act. After a certain point, too many choices lead to paralysis in the Decision phase -- and by the time you decide what you want to do -- you're hit in the face.

 

[Flying Crane]

Boxing is not taught outside of a sporting context.

I don't believe I can agree with you here. I've seen references to some of the oldsters in the martial arts mention how they first learned boxing from their father or uncle or something. Boxing tends to orbit around a sporting and competition venue, but there is no reason why it MUST be contained therein. I believe boxing was widely taught by father to son in certain households, with no sporting connection, and as such it represents a viable and effective fighting and self defense method.

Likewise, boxing techniques can be incorporated into a fighting system (I believe Jhoon Rhee incorporated boxing hand techniques into his taekwondo system), but it is not a fighting system itself (though its techniques have practical application).

I honestly do not understand why someone would incorporate the punching techniques of boxing into their martial art, especially if the end result is that they replace their method's original punching techniques with the boxing techniques. If that is what they want to do, then they should just go and train boxing.

The only reason I can think of to do this would be if you simply do not trust the punching techniques native to the art you practice. Or you are simply no good at them, or you do not understand them. Maybe you had a poor instructor or something, I dunno.

I practice a very specific method of punching in the system that I study. To replace that method with boxing techniques would be a step backward, as they are simply fundamentally different and the boxing techniques would not work well within the overall context of how my system is structured.

People want to believe that boxing techniques are the ultimate fix for poor punching skills, or that boxing techniques are somehow inherently superior to the punching techniques found in other martial arts. From my own experiences, I absolutely disagree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

The common denominator for both of these that someone mentioned before is 'to gain knowledge of the universe'. The common denominator for martial arts is GENERALLY 'self defense'.

The common denominator for martial arts is actually techniques that can be applied in a 'fight' of some kind, which would include 'fighting' in self defense.

What differentiates a martial art from a sport I will go into below.

I'm not talking about their entertainment value.

Astrology only has two intended purposes: guiding one's personal life and entertainment. Most of what astrologers do in the first instance is to give self help advise and throw in some astrological flourishes in order to maintain their mystique.

Most people who are consumers of astrology are either wanting someone to help them map out their life or are simply having fun. Regardless, aside from some basics (names of planetary bodies, constelations, etc.) astrology has no application in learning about celestial bodies. Astronomy does.

My point was that the intended purpose of each is different. Be it science vs. entertainment or self defense vs. fitness is irrelevant; if I'm an astrophysicist, I am unlikely to consult an astrologer in matters relating to my trade.

Thus the comparison between the two is an apples/oranges comparison.

Kind of like the difference between a fighting system and anime fighting. If I want to learn techniques applicable in a fight, I'll train in a martial art or a gym dedicated to some kind of fight sport (MMA, boxing, wrestling, etc.) or an appropriate weapon art instead of watching Kenichi: The Mightiest Disciple or Rurouni Kenshin.

If I want to be entertained by a fun martial arts tale in an animated medium, then Kenichi and Kenshin are viable choices.

All of the things I mentioned you say are 'sports' or 'folk game'. Which, if any, do you consider fighting systems, or martial arts or whatever?
Yes my original premise WAS mostly about supernatural stuff in martial arts. I think what happened was the argument from the other thread leaked into this one Sorry, I shouldn't have let that happen. Thnx, I didn't notice.

By my own fairly rigid definitions, most of what are called martial arts, I would call fighting systems or fight sport, as most of them have little to no martial (meaning military) application. Though I don't trot out my opinion too often because there comes a point where in order to converse, I need to use accepted vernacular.

Most of what we call martial arts would be more accurately categorized as archaic military art, archaic civilian dueling, civilian combat or fight sport. Folk games, such as taekkyeon and capoeria fall into the latter category. Some arts fall into more than one category. My lists are hardly exhaustive.

Archaic military arts:
Kenjutsu
Archery
Historical western swordsmanship
Singlestick
Haidong Gumdo (with note that the basis of its historicity is fairly flimsey)
Jujutsu (some ryu and under different names, as the term Jujutsu was not coined until the 1700s and then retroactively applied if memory serves).
Ninjutsu (a case could certainly be made, though I will leave that to a ninjutsu/ninpo practitioner)

Archaic civilian dueling:
Iaido
kendo
historical fencing
Sport fencing

Civilian combat:
Karate (insert ryu)
Taekwondo
Hapkido
Aikido
Judo/yudo
Keysi
BJJ
Jeet Kune Do
Wing Chun
Ninjutsu/ninpo (the majority of teachers and students of this art are civilians or are learning in a civilian setting)
Shaolin Kung Fu (yes, those monks were civilians, as are most of those practicing it today)
Daito Ryu Aiki Jujutsu
Tai Chi
All of the various civilian self defense systems derived from various martial arts and from law enforcement that focus exclusively on surviving a violent encounter and how to handle yourself so that you don't get attacked (too many to even begin naming them).

Fight sport/folk game/martial entertainment/lifestyle-fitness:
Boxing
Wrestling
WWE Wrestling (martial entertainment)
Kickboxing
Tai Chi (lifestyle-wellness)
Judo/yudo
BJJ
Kendo/kumdo
WTF Taekwondo
Sport Karate
Fencing
MMA
Aikido (lifestyle-wellness)

My lists are hardly exhaustive and how I categorize them is how I categorize them; not how they are universally categorized. I won't even go so far as to say that my categorizations are even the best way of categorizing fighting arts. And, I'm sure that others here will disagree with my assessment. That is fine. I wanted you to have an idea of where I am coming from and how I view the topic.

Since that was the topic. I am well aware of supernatural claims in Japanese, Chinese and Southeast Asian martial arts. Does anyone have any interesting examples of this phenomena elsewhere?

I think that mystical elements of fighting were long ago expunged from western fight science and I am not familiar enough with non Asian and non western systems to point any out that still do have mystical elements.

Daniel

 

[Flying Crane]

Folk games, such as taekkyeon and capoeria...
Daniel

Hi Daniel,

please see my post, #60 in this thread...

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't believe I can agree with you here. I've seen references to some of the oldsters in the martial arts mention how they first learned boxing from their father or uncle or something.

If you say 'fencing' it means sport. If you want to talk about rapier fighting and authetic dueling methods, you're into historical or classical fencing. But unless otherwise specified, fencing means foil, saber, and epee on the piste under modern rules as seen in the olympics.

If you say 'boxing,' it means two guys in flashy trunks with gloves on their hands striking above the waist in a square ring partitioned off by ropes. If you go to a boxing gym, I would almost guarantee that you will not be taught boxing outside of that context. If it was different fifty years ago... well thats nice, but it really doesn't apply to how it is now. Taekwondo was different fifty years ago too, but you can't define it by how it was back in the day.

Boxing tends to orbit around a sporting and competition venue, but there is no reason why it MUST be contained therein.

Which is why it is a sport. That which is not contained in the sporting context is the exception and not the rule.

I believe boxing was widely taught by father to son in certain households, with no sporting connection, and as such it represents a viable and effective fighting and self defense method.

I agree to an extent, but that goes back to what I said to the OP: just because I can beat someone to death with repeated blows to the head does not make boxing any less of a sport. I have repeatedly stated that boxing skill can be used outside of a sporting context.

That, and I suspect that father/son boxing lessons are no longer common.

And calling it a sport is not intended as a a criticism of it nor to imply that boxing is somehow 'lesser' than a martial art. In this thread however, the OP was very clearly talking about boxing as seen in its sporting context.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Hi Daniel,

please see my post, #60 in this thread...

Again, saying that it is a folk game was not criticism or an implication that one cannot fight with it. I have no doubt that those kicks could knock out an opponent.

But it developed along the lines that it did due to considerations that would not be a factor today. Had those factors not been present at the time, Capoeira might likely include a greater breadth of techniques.

People who practice it are practicing it to a certain extent to preserve it, in addition to any practical application that it may have.

The reason that I pointed out that it is a folk game is not to imply that it is in any way lesser, but that it is not comparable to MMA or karate, which were developed for and under a different set of circumstances.

My point was that there is no hierarchy of systems. Each has its merits and was developed under specific conditions for use in specific contexts. Is Judo superior to a lifestyle/fitness oriented tai chi 24 class? Not if you're a senior citizen and have no MA background and are looking to do something to improve your quality of life. And senior citizens are one of the prime targets for fitness oriented tai chi instuctors.

Daniel

 

[fangjian]

Last thing before we let that part of the thread go. ClfSean, you seem to think that XMA is inferior as a fightingsystem/martialart/s.d. Wouldn't you come to this conclusion through observations etc. ? How is that different from what I am saying? I'm having trouble distinguishing the difference.

Also, I remember earlier saying I want my perception of reality to be s close to reality as possible, and someone questioned how I define 'reality'. It's kind of like when I brought up the 'goldfish memory' and 'penny thrown from the skyscraper' stories. After learning that both of those beliefs had no evidence to confirm them, my worldview got just that much closer to reality. Does that make sense?

Now, regarding 'beliefs in martial arts': I was trying to research a bit more into supernatural phenomena in ma. I ended up coming across Kiai Jitsu. In checking out some websites, I've seen some claims that this method of shouting has an actual physical effect on who it's being done to. I would conclude that all of these effects can be explained psychologically, as of course 'loud sounds' can sometimes still make me a tad uncomfortable and tense since I came home from a combat zone. But it seems like practitioners of these types of systems claim something more magical is happening. Anybody else know of this kind of stuff?

Everyone's seen this before, but I think it illustrates well, when beliefs get in the way of reality.

 

[elder999]

If you say 'boxing,' it means two guys in flashy trunks with gloves on their hands striking above the waist in a square ring partitioned off by ropes. If you go to a boxing gym, I would almost guarantee that you will not be taught boxing outside of that context. If it was different fifty years ago... well thats nice, but it really doesn't apply to how it is now.

"Almost guarantee," is fair, but there's more and more boxing for self-defense than there was 30 years ago, in part because of MMA.....

Taekwondo was different fifty years ago too, but you can't define it by how it was back in the day.

And you can probably still find some old time "Korean karate" guys, here and there......there's one up in Farmington, NM......

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I honestly do not understand why someone would incorporate the punching techniques of boxing into their martial art, especially if the end result is that they replace their method's original punching techniques with the boxing techniques. If that is what they want to do, then they should just go and train boxing.

The only reason I can think of to do this would be if you simply do not trust the punching techniques native to the art you practice. Or you are simply no good at them, or you do not understand them. Maybe you had a poor instructor or something, I dunno.

I practice a very specific method of punching in the system that I study. To replace that method with boxing techniques would be a step backward, as they are simply fundamentally different and the boxing techniques would not work well within the overall context of how my system is structured.

People want to believe that boxing techniques are the ultimate fix for poor punching skills, or that boxing techniques are somehow inherently superior to the punching techniques found in other martial arts. From my own experiences, I absolutely disagree.

Incorporation does not mean replacement. One practical reason would be to address a punchng style that is not prevalant in the land where an art was developed but is common in the land where you are instructing.

One other reason could be that boxing style punches appeal to a western student and thus might make an art more appealing?

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

Also, I remember earlier saying I want my perception of reality to be s close to reality as possible, and someone questioned how I define 'reality'. It's kind of like when I brought up the 'goldfish memory' and 'penny thrown from the skyscraper' stories. After learning that both of those beliefs had no evidence to confirm them, my worldview got just that much closer to reality. Does that make sense?

No. How are you deciding what is "real" about violence?

Mine is based on taking people into custody who don't want to go, taking reports of robberies and assaults and even attempted murders, and actually seeing the results and effects of real violence. It's further informed by others with similar (and often, more extensive) direct experience.

 

[elder999]

One other reason could be that boxing style punches appeal to a western student and thus might make an art more appealing?

Daniel

"Boxing style punches" are also in a variety of Asian martial arts......you might be better off saying "boxing style punching."

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Now, regarding 'beliefs in martial arts': I was trying to research a bit more into supernatural phenomena in ma. I ended up coming across Kiai Jitsu. In checking out some websites, I've seen some claims that this method of shouting has an actual physical effect on who it's being done to. I would conclude that all of these effects can be explained psychologically, as of course 'loud sounds' can sometimes still make me a tad uncomfortable and tense since I came home from a combat zone.

I would largely agree with you.

Kihaps or kiais are used in a practical way to lend power to techniques (breath control; nothing magical) or in breakfalls to insure that when you fall, you don't have the wind knocked out of you. They're also used in execution of techniques to keep you from holding your breath.

Then you have, as you mentioned, the psychological effects associated with some guy yelling at you while attacking.

But it seems like practitioners of these types of systems claim something more magical is happening. Anybody else know of this kind of stuff?

Everyone's seen this before, but I think it illustrates well, when beliefs get in the way of reality.

I'd call that larping.

Daniel

 

[fangjian]

No. How are you deciding what is "real" about violence?

Mine is based on taking people into custody who don't want to go, taking reports of robberies and assaults and even attempted murders, and actually seeing the results and effects of real violence. It's further informed by others with similar (and often, more extensive) direct experience.

Ahhhh. Ok that makes sense.

I see what you mean. Other people have different 'realities' of violence. My 'world' is slightly different from my best friend's (who's a cop) 'world' which was different than both of our 'worlds' when we were in the same squad in Iraq. Is this what you are meaning?

As an example,

We had to do raids and cordon & searches on weekly basis. We pretty much had a body of techniques/methods that were used so we could do the missions efficiently, safely, etc.

(for the sake of argument) Like if our 'style' for doing these missions contained techniques that involved 'flagging(accidentally pointing your weapon at) fellow soldiers, not 'cutting the pie' with your rifle when entering new rooms, not using verbal/oral communication during the mission etc. , then I would consider this method to be inferior.

We frequently had to run missions with Special Forces and they would teach us new techniques, methods ( and sometimes show us how some techniques we had that needed to be dropped) that we could add to our 'style' that improved it.

So yeah, while there are many different 'realities', it just seems that certain 'bodies of knowledge (styles) could be GENERALLY more efficient than others in certain environments. Like our style for doing these raids and such was superior to the way we were doing them in our first month there. And the environment and threat was the same. Same environment, different styles. But one was better.

I won't address this issue anymore so we can stay on topic. But would like to hear your response to this.

 

[Flying Crane]

If

If you say 'boxing,' it means two guys in flashy trunks with gloves on their hands striking above the waist in a square ring partitioned off by ropes.

again, it doesn't have to. If this discussion is only looking at boxing in the sporting context, that's fine. But if the intent is to state that it is a sport and that is the end of the story, no I disagree.

That, and I suspect that father/son boxing lessons are no longer common.

you may or may not be right, but I'd say you really have no idea one way or the other.

 

[Flying Crane]

Again, saying that it is a folk game was not criticism or an implication that one cannot fight with it. I have no doubt that those kicks could knock out an opponent.

But it developed along the lines that it did due to considerations that would not be a factor today. Had those factors not been present at the time, Capoeira might likely include a greater breadth of techniques.

People who practice it are practicing it to a certain extent to preserve it, in addition to any practical application that it may have.

how is this any different from any other martial art? Every single one developed in a certain era and under social conditions that influenced what it became. I guess karate and hapkido are really folk games as well. are not those methods being practiced, to a certain extent, to preserve them, in addition to any practical application that they may have?

The reason that I pointed out that it is a folk game is not to imply that it is in any way lesser, but that it is not comparable to MMA or karate, which were developed for and under a different set of circumstances.

not comparable? in an absolute and objective sort of way? really? That sounds a lot like passing judgement over it, and I will need to ask: what is your experience with capoeira, to pass such judgement? Oh never mind, I hear the ghost of an old capoeira mestre, shusshing in my ear and telling me to just let it go, let them think what they want, preserve the cover...

My point was that there is no hierarchy of systems.

now this is something with which I can agree.

 

[Flying Crane]

Incorporation does not mean replacement. One practical reason would be to address a punchng style that is not prevalant in the land where an art was developed but is common in the land where you are instructing.

ok, fair enough. In my own experience, in what I specifically train, boxing style punches and punching do not really fit and do not work in the context of what we do. That's not to say it would be the same for others.

 

[fangjian]

@ Flying Crane

You obviously possess some knowledge of Capoeira. This is a great example of something that I would consider 1-2 dimensional along with many other styles(boxing, bjj, sikaran). Since I am ignorant to the combat apps of Capoeira. Could you enlighten me? Capoeira, frequently is viewed in this light I think. So I think this would be a great opportunity to shed a little light on it.

When I think of Capoeira, I see many fascinating kicks, movements and such, some that I can see higher % moves, and some that are not. Do they normally train 'capoeirista v capoeirista, like a duel( not for play, but counter for counter spar)? Or are there really some schools that teach how to use Capoeira to counter other styles(wrestler, boxer etc. ) ?
I'm intrigued.

ps. I saw some guy (mma fighter I think) on youtube a few months ago. He was doing some badass moves from capoeira on a hanging heavy bag, and ground n pounding it using capoeira etc. It was fascinating! Wish I could find a link 4 u, but I can't

 

[Aiki Lee]

On the concept of ki, I will share my personal thoughts based on my experience in martial arts.

I do not believe of ki as an energy source similar to the force in Star Wars. Therefore NTKO are nonsense.

I am under the impression that ki is the focusing of intention through unifying body and mind. Basically it is acting on your intention.
People can feel the intention of other people, and therefore IMO can sense the ki of another person. This is how the sakki tests with swords are done and without sensing ki higher level concepts like go no sen and sen, sen no sen are not possible.
I believe the feeling of ki is somehow phisological and not some sort of magic. It may be a combination of all the other senses working together, but I have witnessed people react to my ki and I have reacted to the ki of others. Whatever it may really be.

 

[fangjian]

On the concept of ki, I will share my personal thoughts based on my experience in martial arts.

I do not believe of ki as an energy source similar to the force in Star Wars. Therefore NTKO are nonsense.

I am under the impression that ki is the focusing of intention through unifying body and mind. Basically it is acting on your intention.
People can feel the intention of other people, and therefore IMO can sense the ki of another person. This is how the sakki tests with swords are done and without sensing ki higher level concepts like go no sen and sen, sen no sen are not possible.
I believe the feeling of ki is somehow phisological and not some sort of magic. It may be a combination of all the other senses working together, but I have witnessed people react to my ki and I have reacted to the ki of others. Whatever it may really be.

WHen you say ' they react to my ki' would you explain your experience? You said, 'peoples' intention', like when you spar for a long time and you can sense the timing of someone else? Their intent? Do think these are the same?
Yes. to me it seems like almost a 'perfection' of movement. Like when 'fa jing' is demonstrated in 'Internal' styles. I have trained with expert taiji players, wrestlers, aikidoka etc. , and in my experience, being 'thrown' or what have you, seems like 'magic'. Sometimes when I'm sharing my Balintawak, my students will think its some sort of magic, but to me its more like a 'perfect' timing, speed, elegance, etc. To them, it's like I am 'everywhere' at once. But they just don't understand yet.
In regards to things like 'fa jing'; found in Taiji, xingyi, aiki, etc., I'm not so sure anything 'that can't be scientifically explained' is happening. Seems more like from your toes all the way to your fist, you can learn to generate more power by adding 'other' muscles, bones, etc. that you were not using before. ie. Like when a beginner starts learning how to strike, sometimes they JUST use their arm, and you must teach them to use their shoulder, hip, leg, foot, etc. Fa jing seems like even 'more of a whip'. And in regards to the video posted to me of Chen Bing using tuishou,

This seems like a 'demonstration' to enlighten others about the applications of taijiquan, no? I would be interested to see actual sparring /testing of this against other 'clinch' systems(greco, judo, ) for fun.

And just 'cause I was looking around :

1:30 OUCH!!!!!!!! Looks like he landed on his tailbone!!

 

[fangjian]

NTKO.
Non touch knock out, I’m assuming

Seriously don’t think about what other people think, it’ll only drive you mad. It is completely and totally irrelevant to our survival as a species. It’s like arguing with someone on the internet, entertaining, enlightening and frustrating all at the same time. We all have our own histories and experiences, so we will all think different things about different subjects.

If someone doesn’t like you, so what? If someone believes or doesn’t believe in a god or gods, so what? Act like a respectable human being, treat people well and the world is fine. Become concerned about what other people think….then the world goes all to hell.

As for the NTKO issue, I have watched the videos in the past, and still think they are BS.

James Randi has offered $1000000 to anyone who can prove, under scientific testing any existence of supernatural forces. The folks who believe in such nonsense should give it a go, easy money for them.

Beliefs are intimately intertwined with behavior. ie

Islamic fundamentalism/WTC
Pedophilia/Child Molesting
Newtonian Mechanics/wearing seat belts
NTKO/people getting hurt when they shoulda' just 'gave him their wallet'

It IS also relevant to humanity. With the guidance of some evangelical churches there is now widespread manhunts for gay people and their executions. It's like witch hunts going on in Uganda.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Anti-Homosexuality_Bill

The pope also informed Africa that condoms are NOT effective

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/17/pope-africa-condoms-aids

I don't care if others find fun in believing in Aphrodite or Zeus. It just always finds ways to effect EVERYONE
I'm just not seeing how superstition aids human progress. Politics, science, even in martial arts. It seems like claims that don't require evidence lead us nowhere. Like when I was in Iraq years ago, what if I took out the iron plates out of my flack vest and just trusted my 'iron shirt', and if I said an 'oracion' before going out on patrol, my beliefs would protect me? lolz

...HEY speaking of 'iron shirt', anyone do that here? I use to do iron palm/forearm years ago. Had a good experience with it, but just couldn't make time for it anymore. The constant striking of a limb and it's result of hardening and desensitizing really doesn't magically impress me much. But I remember watching some Iron Crotch videos and just being perplexed. What exactly is goin on here? Does it also have to do with turning off pain receptors in the brain?