Guiseppe Betri
Yellow Belt
webpage20022003 is suspended huh? Well, thats really too bad because I was really hoping to continue that incredibly intelligent internet-post conversation I was having with him/her.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
KenpoDragon: webpage 20022003 was getting personal and challenging some people in the "It's time to promote the Kenpo Grandmasters" thread. Now that he is suspended, we can get back to our discussion here.
After 30 years of practice, some of the Kenpo stuff is getting boring. It doesn't seem as alive as some other arts like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Muay Thai. What can we, the Kenpo community, do to spice things up?
After 30 years of practice, some of the Kenpo stuff is getting boring. It doesn't seem as alive as some other arts like Brazilian Jiu Jitsu or Muay Thai. What can we, the Kenpo community, do to spice things up?
R
rmcrobertson
Guest
We can do a better job of training--and realize that shifting to some other school won't magically solve our problems. I haven't looked, but I guarantee that there are lots and lots of jiu-jitsu schools out there where things are as dead as in the worst of kenpo schools. I also guarantee that running from flavor-of-the month to flavor-of the month won't get it...I am reminded of the students running down the street in Jackie Chan's first "Drunken Master," flick...
I think it's great that folks find places they love training, and which seem to answer their questions.
I think it's great that folks find places they love training, and which seem to answer their questions.
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
rmcrobertson: You are right on.
A better job of training could possibly include methods and techniques from other systems. A great school in Nor Cal doing this is John Sepulveda's Santa Clara Kenpo (no affiliation with me) where they teach Kickboxing technique and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Grappling to supplement their 16-technique American Kenpo Curriculum. It would be wonderful if more Kenpo schools did as excellent a job teaching Kenpo and incorporating other arts as well.
A better job of training could possibly include methods and techniques from other systems. A great school in Nor Cal doing this is John Sepulveda's Santa Clara Kenpo (no affiliation with me) where they teach Kickboxing technique and Brazilian Jiu Jitsu Grappling to supplement their 16-technique American Kenpo Curriculum. It would be wonderful if more Kenpo schools did as excellent a job teaching Kenpo and incorporating other arts as well.
OP
OP
twinkletoes
Guest
rmcrobertson:
I too agree strongly with almost all of what you said. Shifting to something else won't help (unless you bring the new ideas back). Running from the newest flavor to the newest flavor definitely won't do it.
The only thing I disagree with is that most jiu-jitsu schools teach dead patterns. If you mean traditional jiu-jitsu, you are probably correct. If you mean brazilian jiu-jitsu, I think we are not discussing "dead patterns" the same way.
Dead training is boxing without sparring, wrestling without competing (even in practice), and BJJ without rolling. If you find any of these it's an extreme minority.
Unfortunately, Karate's methods of forms (even 2-man sets), cooperative techniques, and hitting targets is not alive practice. It is still "skill introduction." It develops accuracy, flow, power, and technique, but *not* timing, distancing and appropriateness. You must drill (alive) or spar to develop these attributes. BJJ, wrestling, and boxing do not exist without these (except for rare and bizarre circumstances). They hold the largest percent of their training in these avenues!
~Chris
I too agree strongly with almost all of what you said. Shifting to something else won't help (unless you bring the new ideas back). Running from the newest flavor to the newest flavor definitely won't do it.
The only thing I disagree with is that most jiu-jitsu schools teach dead patterns. If you mean traditional jiu-jitsu, you are probably correct. If you mean brazilian jiu-jitsu, I think we are not discussing "dead patterns" the same way.
Dead training is boxing without sparring, wrestling without competing (even in practice), and BJJ without rolling. If you find any of these it's an extreme minority.
Unfortunately, Karate's methods of forms (even 2-man sets), cooperative techniques, and hitting targets is not alive practice. It is still "skill introduction." It develops accuracy, flow, power, and technique, but *not* timing, distancing and appropriateness. You must drill (alive) or spar to develop these attributes. BJJ, wrestling, and boxing do not exist without these (except for rare and bizarre circumstances). They hold the largest percent of their training in these avenues!
~Chris
K
Kenpomachine
Guest
I agree with you wholeheartedly :asian:
Bring what you find lacking into your kenpo.
K
Kenpomachine
Guest
Chris, I don't know if I have misunderstood you or not, but I think you more disillusioned with the way you have to teach kenpo at the school that with kenpo.
I have some questions for you, though:
Do you have to share students with other teachers or they only train with you?
Is it compulsory for them to test at certain periods of time?
Is the pace at which you have to teach the program set by those above? Do they take your opinions into account?
Have you told them how you feel about this rigidity in training methods?
If teaching techniques is an issue for them, and you feel they're dead (the techniques as now trained, not your superiors
), try those drills you talked about with them. I.e. have attackers going full power sometimes, lower or higher than written, or adding another hit if the first move is not right and leaves and opening to any target.
And you can search for some techniques lines drills, that got people more "alive" and made them more aware to proper reaction.
Have them going for light contact first, and then medium contact, so they can "feel" what they're doing and get used to some contact. (Going hard doesn't imply gouging anybody's eye or broking noses, that's what control is for).
If you feel forms are dead, have people doing the attacks on the one performing, so they must think what those moves in the form are.
If spontaneity is an issue, have attackers have two or three different possible attacks (i.e. right or left kick, back bear hugs arms free or arms pinned, back shoulder grabbings or back chokes), so the defender doesn't work on automatic.
Try to break their routine and yours.
And if all this doesn't work for you, take a break from teaching kenpo. Or don't wait that much to open your own school.
Hope this is of some help with you.
:asian:
I have some questions for you, though:
Do you have to share students with other teachers or they only train with you?
Is it compulsory for them to test at certain periods of time?
Is the pace at which you have to teach the program set by those above? Do they take your opinions into account?
Have you told them how you feel about this rigidity in training methods?
If teaching techniques is an issue for them, and you feel they're dead (the techniques as now trained, not your superiors
), try those drills you talked about with them. I.e. have attackers going full power sometimes, lower or higher than written, or adding another hit if the first move is not right and leaves and opening to any target.And you can search for some techniques lines drills, that got people more "alive" and made them more aware to proper reaction.
Have them going for light contact first, and then medium contact, so they can "feel" what they're doing and get used to some contact. (Going hard doesn't imply gouging anybody's eye or broking noses, that's what control is for).
If you feel forms are dead, have people doing the attacks on the one performing, so they must think what those moves in the form are.
If spontaneity is an issue, have attackers have two or three different possible attacks (i.e. right or left kick, back bear hugs arms free or arms pinned, back shoulder grabbings or back chokes), so the defender doesn't work on automatic.
Try to break their routine and yours.
And if all this doesn't work for you, take a break from teaching kenpo. Or don't wait that much to open your own school.
Hope this is of some help with you.
:asian:
OP
OP
twinkletoes
Guest
Kenpomachine-
I think you may be right, but I'm not sure (about being more disillusioned with *how* I'm teaching). I will try to qualify my answer. First, let me answer some of your other questions.
-I share my students with several other instructors. In fact, there is only about one Kenpo class per week that I teach by myself-otherwise there could be up to 4 other black belts (not to mention assitants) with whom I am dividing the students at any given time [yes, that's right--4 others at one time]. I am just about smack dab in the middle of the heirarchy (which is something else I wish we would do away with, but that's a whole other story). A couple that I work with regularly are my seniors, and some are my juniors.
-The students may test during the first week of each month. In the early ranks (especially with the kids) it is encouraged that they test for a stripe each month. About every 4-5 months they are eligible for belt testing. (Before anyone calls McDojo, there are no costs for any of these!).
-The students do not have to test at these times (especially the adults). These are times when they *may* test.
-I think you are onto something when you ask about schedule: one of the big problems is that (in the kids classes especially) we are always either in testing week, the week after testing week (when we retest kids who almost made it), 2 weeks until testing, or the week before testing. This means that a good deal of our time is spent on curriculum. I would say 95% of our teaching is curriculum-based, although I include things like bag-work in that (because it is basics they will be tested on). With the exception of sparring (every friday, all classes) we spend VERY little time on things that are not explicitly in the belt curriculum.
Now I will return to what I started at the beginning of this post. You said I may be tired of these training methods--I think you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what I'm tired of. However, the question becomes, can you change all the training and still have kenpo? What makes it something else?
If I took out all the forms and all the self-defense techniques, and instead just taught the basic strikes and movements, with lots of drilling and sparring, would it still be kenpo? I'm not sure. I don't know how to think of that. That's the kind of thing I would do. It seems like that can go in one of a couple directions:
1) Call it my own style or system of kenpo. I have no interest in that. I am actually pretty averse to it. I don't care to have my name attached to anything like that.
2) Address it as a "training method" instead of a "style." This idea is much more appealing, but as I think about it more and more, the process I envision meeting my own expectations is exactly what Roy Harris describes as JKD (www.royharris.com, "What is JKD?"). Since Roy is my BJJ instructor, it makes me want to just go take up JKD with him.
-As for the other instructors at my school, they range from fairly open-minded to the worst I have ever seen. Some of them openly bash any new or different ideas in front of the students. Most of them are far too far entrenched in their own ideas to accept new ones. Others are ok with new drills and training approaches. I am slowly introducing some of my ideas, with varied results. Some are met with better reactions than others.
Thanks for your input--I think it has helped me clarify (in my own mind as well) the problem.
~Chris
I think you may be right, but I'm not sure (about being more disillusioned with *how* I'm teaching). I will try to qualify my answer. First, let me answer some of your other questions.
-I share my students with several other instructors. In fact, there is only about one Kenpo class per week that I teach by myself-otherwise there could be up to 4 other black belts (not to mention assitants) with whom I am dividing the students at any given time [yes, that's right--4 others at one time]. I am just about smack dab in the middle of the heirarchy (which is something else I wish we would do away with, but that's a whole other story). A couple that I work with regularly are my seniors, and some are my juniors.
-The students may test during the first week of each month. In the early ranks (especially with the kids) it is encouraged that they test for a stripe each month. About every 4-5 months they are eligible for belt testing. (Before anyone calls McDojo, there are no costs for any of these!).
-The students do not have to test at these times (especially the adults). These are times when they *may* test.
-I think you are onto something when you ask about schedule: one of the big problems is that (in the kids classes especially) we are always either in testing week, the week after testing week (when we retest kids who almost made it), 2 weeks until testing, or the week before testing. This means that a good deal of our time is spent on curriculum. I would say 95% of our teaching is curriculum-based, although I include things like bag-work in that (because it is basics they will be tested on). With the exception of sparring (every friday, all classes) we spend VERY little time on things that are not explicitly in the belt curriculum.
Now I will return to what I started at the beginning of this post. You said I may be tired of these training methods--I think you hit the nail on the head. That's exactly what I'm tired of. However, the question becomes, can you change all the training and still have kenpo? What makes it something else?
If I took out all the forms and all the self-defense techniques, and instead just taught the basic strikes and movements, with lots of drilling and sparring, would it still be kenpo? I'm not sure. I don't know how to think of that. That's the kind of thing I would do. It seems like that can go in one of a couple directions:
1) Call it my own style or system of kenpo. I have no interest in that. I am actually pretty averse to it. I don't care to have my name attached to anything like that.
2) Address it as a "training method" instead of a "style." This idea is much more appealing, but as I think about it more and more, the process I envision meeting my own expectations is exactly what Roy Harris describes as JKD (www.royharris.com, "What is JKD?"). Since Roy is my BJJ instructor, it makes me want to just go take up JKD with him.
-As for the other instructors at my school, they range from fairly open-minded to the worst I have ever seen. Some of them openly bash any new or different ideas in front of the students. Most of them are far too far entrenched in their own ideas to accept new ones. Others are ok with new drills and training approaches. I am slowly introducing some of my ideas, with varied results. Some are met with better reactions than others.
Thanks for your input--I think it has helped me clarify (in my own mind as well) the problem.
~Chris
Brother John
Senior Master
You said, in a MUCH earlier post:
I'll be short and sweet in my agreeing and disagreeing... (odd for me huh?)
Not all Kenpoists have such "closed minds". Many of us have a very open outlook on our art and the many ways that we express it. For instance (and this is only one instance, there are others) we in the AKKI are very busy learning all of the new developments that our seniors (Mr. Mills and several of his closest students) are putting into our curriculum. It's very exciting to say the least!! Grappling/chokes...nerve strikes.... new sets, new forms, new techniques, new weapons curriculum, new partner drills..... it goes on. It's very fun. So you see, not all of Kenpo suffers from the stale/staticness that you mention. Even apart from the larger/leadership of the association there is the great lattitude we have to practice it in ways that we feel best meets our needs.
There are others who advance and aren't sitting still.
Preserving the past is for museums and libraries.
Progressing into the future is the legacy of Kenpo.
Just my thoughts...
Your Brother
John
I'll be short and sweet in my agreeing and disagreeing... (odd for me huh?)
Not all Kenpoists have such "closed minds". Many of us have a very open outlook on our art and the many ways that we express it. For instance (and this is only one instance, there are others) we in the AKKI are very busy learning all of the new developments that our seniors (Mr. Mills and several of his closest students) are putting into our curriculum. It's very exciting to say the least!! Grappling/chokes...nerve strikes.... new sets, new forms, new techniques, new weapons curriculum, new partner drills..... it goes on. It's very fun. So you see, not all of Kenpo suffers from the stale/staticness that you mention. Even apart from the larger/leadership of the association there is the great lattitude we have to practice it in ways that we feel best meets our needs.
There are others who advance and aren't sitting still.
Preserving the past is for museums and libraries.
Progressing into the future is the legacy of Kenpo.
Just my thoughts...
Your Brother
John
Old Fat Kenpoka
Master Black Belt
Brother John: I have read and heard good things about the AKKI. I have not personally worked out with any of their new methods.
I think there is some good experimentation going on. Some schools are incorporating other arts. Other Kenpoists are experimenting within the bounds of Kenpo.
Unfortunately, too many Kenpoists say "24-technique system is the only true Kenpo" or "That's not the way Ed Parker would have done it." This has been important in keeping the Kenpo flame alive. Unfortunately, some who think this way (whether it is 24-technique or any other "approved" curriculum) can be closed minded and are missing the martial arts revolution that has been occuring for the last 10 years.
I think there is some good experimentation going on. Some schools are incorporating other arts. Other Kenpoists are experimenting within the bounds of Kenpo.
Unfortunately, too many Kenpoists say "24-technique system is the only true Kenpo" or "That's not the way Ed Parker would have done it." This has been important in keeping the Kenpo flame alive. Unfortunately, some who think this way (whether it is 24-technique or any other "approved" curriculum) can be closed minded and are missing the martial arts revolution that has been occuring for the last 10 years.
OP
OP
twinkletoes
Guest
Brother John-
I'm not Old Fat Kenpoka, but I'll respond too.
I think it's great that people are keeping abreast of new methods and allowing themselves to change. It's this kind of thing that stops me from losing my love for kenpo entirely.
I will add, though, that we should not always mistake newer methods for better methods. I don't say that because I want to preserve the traditional material, but rather because sometimes we replace things without realizing why they needed replacing. For example, there is no reason that a new kata is inherently any better than an old kata, even if it has "new moves" or "new ideas" in it. If it's still a set of prearranged movements without variation, it is still only a way of introducing skill and developing certain basic attributes.
I don't mean to imply that you (or anyone else) has said that they are anything more than that. But I want to make sure that neophytes reading this understand.
Best,
~Chris
PS- Since nobody has stepped up and answered my question about what defines kenpo, I will make a new thread about it, so we don't get off track.
I'm not Old Fat Kenpoka, but I'll respond too.
I think it's great that people are keeping abreast of new methods and allowing themselves to change. It's this kind of thing that stops me from losing my love for kenpo entirely.
I will add, though, that we should not always mistake newer methods for better methods. I don't say that because I want to preserve the traditional material, but rather because sometimes we replace things without realizing why they needed replacing. For example, there is no reason that a new kata is inherently any better than an old kata, even if it has "new moves" or "new ideas" in it. If it's still a set of prearranged movements without variation, it is still only a way of introducing skill and developing certain basic attributes.
I don't mean to imply that you (or anyone else) has said that they are anything more than that. But I want to make sure that neophytes reading this understand.
Best,
~Chris
PS- Since nobody has stepped up and answered my question about what defines kenpo, I will make a new thread about it, so we don't get off track.
Brother John
Senior Master
I like that you said it, and I like how...
Kinda like one of my favorite quotes:
"Life IS change, it's growth that's optional."
Not just anyone should think that they have enough insight/knowledge and skill to be able to innovate and revamp an entire system..
I can only speak for the group/association that I'm in and am most familiar with: the AKKI
Here's some info on Mr. Mills (cut and pasted from the AKKI website)
So you see, it's not the AKKI that's changing/altering/creating/innovating....
It's Grandmaster Mills who's doing so, for very good tactical reasons.
It's not just anyone who's doing it.... wer'e just soaking it up.
(((OK..ok..... so I've done a little "rah-rah-Rah..." for the AKKI. Like I said though... it's what I know... and even in that I am the least of my AKKI brother's and sisters.)))
Later guys
Your Bro
John
K
Kenpomachine
Guest
Originally posted by twinkletoes
PS- Since nobody has stepped up and answered my question about what defines kenpo, I will make a new thread about it, so we don't get off track.
Going to the other thread to reply
On the fourth page are several notes directed to the moderation team. It's important to e-mail/PM/use the "Report to Mod." feature, because we do not read every thread. These were missed. I gather the thread has moved on so I will not re-open these issues unless asked to do so.
-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
-Arnisador
-MT Admin-
I did both comment, in the hopes that they would self-regulate, then used the button at the bottom to ask you to keep an eye on the thread. Thanks for monitoring and commenting.
