Bassai Dai - Martial Arts Rosetta Stone

[Noah_Legel]

He’s definitely impressive. And his knockdown fighting is even more impressive IMO.

I’ve trained a little bit with Okinawan style guys. They usually scratch their heads in wonder when they see movements they do done Kyokushin-like big. My simple reply is it doesn’t matter how big or small that movement is in kata, so long as you know why you’re doing it and can do it the right way in a fight. I usually get the “well played” head nod.

I like the big sledgehammer-like movements. I guess maybe it’s because it’s what I “grew up with.” Small movements seem restrictive to me. I guess the smaller movement guys probably feel like the big movements are a waste of energy or something.

Coming from the Okinawan karate perspective, I don't personally like the degree to which Kyokushin kata movements are exaggerated--as I see it, most of the movements in Okinawan kata are already somewhat exaggerated, so it just seems unnecessary, and starts to be less effective for some of the ways we use the kata. My biggest problem is honestly the shuto-mawashi-uke, though, because it is so fundamentally removed from the way the technique functions, and thus loses its broad-spectrum utility. If you can apply it against realistic attacks, under pressure, then it doesn't really matter so much, but I just don't find the big, circling version of Kyokushin to be as useful as the smaller, crossing version of most Okinawan styles--of course, I am admittedly biased.

 

[JR 137]

Coming from the Okinawan karate perspective, I don't personally like the degree to which Kyokushin kata movements are exaggerated--as I see it, most of the movements in Okinawan kata are already somewhat exaggerated, so it just seems unnecessary, and starts to be less effective for some of the ways we use the kata. My biggest problem is honestly the shuto-mawashi-uke, though, because it is so fundamentally removed from the way the technique functions, and thus loses its broad-spectrum utility. If you can apply it against realistic attacks, under pressure, then it doesn't really matter so much, but I just don't find the big, circling version of Kyokushin to be as useful as the smaller, crossing version of most Okinawan styles--of course, I am admittedly biased.

The shuto mawashi stow uke (no idea what the stow part means) is the one thing I don’t like. Kyokushin and the offshoots are the only ones I know of that do it. I guess it’s Oyama’s change to the “block.” It really never made sense to me from a bunkai perspective. I’d much rather do the regular shuto mawashi uke personally.

As far as most other movements, while yes there’s a big visual difference, I don’t see much difference in the intent and at the heart of it. Different way to generate power, but the gross movements aren’t that far apart IMO.

 

[Noah_Legel]

The shuto mawashi stow uke (no idea what the stow part means) is the one thing I don’t like. Kyokushin and the offshoots are the only ones I know of that do it. I guess it’s Oyama’s change to the “block.” It really never made sense to me from a bunkai perspective. I’d much rather do the regular shuto mawashi uke personally.

As far as most other movements, while yes there’s a big visual difference, I don’t see much difference in the intent and at the heart of it. Different way to generate power, but the gross movements aren’t that far apart IMO.

Really depends what you're using the movements for--the further your limbs get from your body, the less strength and stability they have. For striking, that doesn't matter so much. For grappling methods, though...

 

[dvcochran]

You guys have both mentioned that kyokushin kata are not pretty. In my mind, that is an irrelevant point because kata was not meant to be performance art. It is a training tool. How aesthetically pleasing it is or is not, is beside the point.

What I see in this fellow’s Kyokushin kata is bigger movement when compared to the other videos in this thread. Those other videos are quicker and sharper in some ways, but the bigger movement of the Kyokushin fellow better grabs the full- body engagement and better harnesses that power. In my opinion, that is more important. As a training tool, kata ought to be done with an exaggeration in the movements, for that reason. Kata is not a fantasy fight. You are not play-acting a battle when you do kata. It is practice of technique and the principles that drive the technique, heavy on fundamentals, so heavy emphasis on that proper movement is important.

While the technical approach to the training looks to be quite different from my method of Tibetan white crane, that big movement is a similar concept, so it’s in my wheelhouse. I would like to see him translate the movement from the feet and legs on up, some more, but overall he is quite impressive.

This is why I was asking if this fellow is representative of how it ought to be done by Kyokushin standards, or if he is a leader in the system. I wanted to know if he is doing it well, or might be considered an offshoot who is doing it his own way.

You guys have both mentioned that kyokushin kata are not pretty. In my mind, that is an irrelevant point because kata was not meant to be performance art. It is a training tool. How aesthetically pleasing it is or is not, is beside the point.

What I see in this fellow’s Kyokushin kata is bigger movement when compared to the other videos in this thread. Those other videos are quicker and sharper in some ways, but the bigger movement of the Kyokushin fellow better grabs the full- body engagement and better harnesses that power. In my opinion, that is more important. As a training tool, kata ought to be done with an exaggeration in the movements, for that reason. Kata is not a fantasy fight. You are not play-acting a battle when you do kata. It is practice of technique and the principles that drive the technique, heavy on fundamentals, so heavy emphasis on that proper movement is important.

While the technical approach to the training looks to be quite different from my method of Tibetan white crane, that big movement is a similar concept, so it’s in my wheelhouse. I would like to see him translate the movement from the feet and legs on up, some more, but overall he is quite impressive.

Very much agree with all of this.

 

[mrt2]

Itosu Passai is certainly popular among Shuri-Te styles, but I don't know that I would call it a "Rosetta Stone" of karate. For one thing, it isn't even the most common kata among Shuri-Te styles--that would be Naihanchi. Beyond that, it isn't really found outside of Shuri-Te styles, so it doesn't have the broadest use across karate, as a whole--that would be Seisan.

I didn't say Rosetta Stone of Karate. I said Rosetta Stone of martial arts.

 

[Noah_Legel]

I didn't say Rosetta Stone of Karate. I said Rosetta Stone of martial arts.

Then I would say it is even further from a Rosetta Stone--that goes back to something like Seisan, or perhaps Sanchin, since there are extant examples of it in styles outside of Okinawa

 

[Flying Crane]

I didn't say Rosetta Stone of Karate. I said Rosetta Stone of martial arts.

How so?

 

[mrt2]

How so?

Because I never studied Karate. I studied Tang Soo Do and Bassai was part of the Tang Soo Do Curicullum.

 

[Flying Crane]

Because I never studied Karate. I studied Tang Soo Do and Bassai was part of the Tang Soo Do Curicullum.

Ok but when you call it a Rosetta stone of martial arts, do you include all of the Chinese and Indonesian and Thai and Philippine and all other systems that do not include this form, or even any forms in some cases?

Seems to me that context is pretty important to this particular discussion.

 

[mrt2]

Ok but when you call it a Rosetta stone of martial arts, do you include all of the Chinese and Indonesian and Thai and Philippine and all other systems that do not include this form, or even any forms in some cases?

Seems to me that context is pretty important to this particular discussion.

All I was saying was, you have a form that connects Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese and Korean martial arts. And unlike a lot of the forms currently practiced today, Bassai is actually pretty old. And that strikes me as interesting.

 

[Flying Crane]

All I was saying was, you have a form that connects Chinese, Okinawan, Japanese and Korean martial arts. And unlike a lot of the forms currently practiced today, Bassai is actually pretty old. And that strikes me as interesting.

It is interesting. Keep in mind, if it does connect Chinese systems (I don’t know one way or the other) then it is a very very limited group. By far, most Chinese systems do not practice a variant of it.