Bassai/Passai/Pal Sek Variations from style to style and respective bunkai

[TimoS]

I wonder if there is anyway to verify what the original applications actually were?

I would say that unless you happen to have a time machine parked in your garage, the chances are not good. Many of the Okinawan schools do carry the bunkai and while the "outside" of a kata might change a bit over the years and from teacher to teacher, the "inside" should remain the same. The actual applications might also be somewhat different, but they should all utilize the same basic principles.

 

[Makalakumu]

I would say that unless you happen to have a time machine parked in your garage, the chances are not good. Many of the Okinawan schools do carry the bunkai and while the "outside" of a kata might change a bit over the years and from teacher to teacher, the "inside" should remain the same. The actual applications might also be somewhat different, but they should all utilize the same basic principles.

Noting all of the variations of the kata, I wonder what principles carry through all of them. If the kanji for the kata is something that is fabricated, where does a person start when it comes to understanding the principles?

 

[dancingalone]

Noting all of the variations of the kata, I wonder what principles carry through all of them. If the kanji for the kata is something that is fabricated, where does a person start when it comes to understanding the principles?

I think what is taught most immediately by one's teacher or one's teacher's teacher, even if it is a recent addition, must be evaluated first.

Many Tang Soo Do schools for example impart animal totems to the forms, such as Turtle for the Pinan, Snake for Passai, and Bear for Naihanchi. I don't know that the Turtle analogy works for me, but running Passai with the characteristics of a Snake (swift, supple, sudden, deadly) possibly could, even if the idea is one probably introduced by a Korean somewhere along the line rather than by Itosu or Matsumura.

Obviously the practice of the basics need to align with this idea too. If you want to embue Passai with a snake's spirit, your isolated technique practice whether in the air or on a heavy bag need have it too.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Many Tang Soo Do schools for example impart animal totems to the forms, such as Turtle for the Pinan, Snake for Passai, and Bear for Naihanchi.

I'm curious when these animal totems were assigned, it's not something my KJN ever used.. . It is a foreign concept to me.

 

[dancingalone]

I'm curious when these animal totems were assigned, it's not something my KJN ever used.. . It is a foreign concept to me.

I recently heard a bit more about it that I'll share here. A master I am friendly who came up through the MDK & Soo Bahk Do told me it is something he has heard Grandmaster HC Hwang discuss in brief, so I would surmise that with regard to the Okinawan/Japanese forms, the animal totems is something they are willing to embrace to a degree. My friend didn't know who first came up with the idea though.

Edit: A good first starting place is to look at Kang Uk Lee as the source since he has the only published work I am aware of that mentions animals in connection to the forms.

 

[Makalakumu]

I'm curious when these animal totems were assigned, it's not something my KJN ever used.. . It is a foreign concept to me.

If you look at Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan, Volume 2, the one with all of the advanced forms described in it, the opening has a prominent animal picture right above the textual description of the form. It may come from this.

 

[Makalakumu]

As far as principles go, I like to go back to the kanji for the kata. Bassai, for example, translates into "to penetrate the fortress". I see this immediately turning a bad situation into a positive one for you. I see it as teaching karateka more advanced, more dangerous responses, because the odds are stacked against you in a confrontation. For me, when I interpret the kata, multiple attackers, empty hand defense against weapons, outright killing techniques are shown.

Here is a partial list of principles

1. Immediate incapacitation.
2. Multiple attacker superior position.
3. Defanging the snake.
4. Basic weapon knowledge.

 

[TimoS]

As far as principles go, I like to go back to the kanji for the kata

I see. And what, if anything, can you deduce from e.g. Seisan, which might mean 13? Or Gojushiho, i.e. 54 steps?

 

[Makalakumu]

I see. And what, if anything, can you deduce from e.g. Seisan, which might mean 13? Or Gojushiho, i.e. 54 steps?

I suppose you'd have to understand the numerology. Isn't 54 an important Buddhist number? It's half of 108.

 

[K-man]

As far as principles go, I like to go back to the kanji for the kata. Bassai, for example, translates into "to penetrate the fortress". I see this immediately turning a bad situation into a positive one for you. I see it as teaching karateka more advanced, more dangerous responses, because the odds are stacked against you in a confrontation. For me, when I interpret the kata, multiple attackers, empty hand defense against weapons, outright killing techniques are shown.

Here is a partial list of principles

1. Immediate incapacitation.
2. Multiple attacker superior position.
3. Defanging the snake.
4. Basic weapon knowledge.

If this is correct, the kata was named by the family that developed the system. The translation is also questioned.

The Okinawan versions include powerful blocking and angular defense against attacks from multiple directions. This form is at least 400 years old (based on a carbon tested, silk drawing of the form), and is a family form (Passai is the name of a family in Okinawa). The creator of the form was left-handed. If the practitioner keeps that in mind, some more of the hidden techniques of the form will become visible.
The Okinawans did not have a clear definition for the name "Passai" for Funakoshi to translate into Japanese, so he substituted it with a similar sounding kanji, "Bassai". This can be literally translated to mean "extract from a fortress" or "remove an obstruction". This is thought to be in reference to the power with which the kata should be executed, emphasizing energy generation from the hips and waist. However, the designation of Bassai by the Japanese does not appear to have a direct relation to movements in the kata or its origins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passai

You have made a number of assumptions about this kata that I would suggest apply to all kata. Because all kata are fighting systems, why is it this one is more advanced? All kata contain lethal techniques.

As to multiple attackers? Sure, you can interpret ithat way but that is then saying that a kata is a combination of individual actions or reactions. How do you determine where one action stops and the next begins? Interpreting any kata as turning to defend against a different attacker means that kata no longer gives you the information regarding your position relative to your attacker and the angle and direction of your strike. Multiple directions is not the same as multiple attackers. As a fighting system, you can enter a kata at any point. If the attack is a grab from behind the kata will give you the basic response that will get you out of the grab and provide the turn or move to allow you to overcome the attacker. There would be litterally dozens of applications in any kata but each move should provide an application that takes over from the previous one should the previous one fail. Practising kata gives you the muscle memory to continue the sequence of the system under stress.

In Arnis, for example, the forms are used with sticks but they also work the same way with knives or empty handed. I don't believe any of the Chinese based forms work the same way. I have seen some kata reworked to include applications with sai or tonfa but I don't believe for one minute that that was the way they were used in China. The Chinese have their own weapon kata.

Defanging the snake? Sure you can have an interpretation for that as that is what bunkai is about. But, in the classical sense 'defanging the snake' is about attacking the arm or hand holding a weapon until it can no longer hold it. That was often a series of cuts or blows. I can't see how a kata can do that. A kata gives you sequential strikes that are all are fight finishers. Defanging the snake requires a number of strikes to a limb.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. :asian:

 

[Makalakumu]

That was a very interesting article that you shared. Thanks. I'd like to dig into the sources more when I have time. Still, every journey begins with a step. Maybe the step is wrong and you have to retrace your steps to the beginning and maybe you simply have to change directions. I'll start with the kanji and learn as I go.

You have made a number of assumptions about this kata that I would suggest apply to all kata. Because all kata are fighting systems, why is it this one is more advanced? All kata contain lethal techniques.

I have been practicing karate for a long time. I started in 5th grade and I only began to understand that all kata could be complete fighting systems about 10 years ago. I was told that many times before that, but I really didn't see it. I didn't understand it until I could actually start to see the applications and possibilities in the movements. This is important to keep in mind because I think we often take for granted how much we do know and how much our understanding of kata has evolved. Imagine yourself as a beginner again. The confusion, the practice, the body mechanics, they are all new and simple, less dangerous material is easier for them to grasp.

I see kata in much the same way. The way I teach kata breaks it down and doles out the knowledge in small doses so that students don't get overwhelmed. I start with the Pinan kata to get across the basics and approach the concepts of self defense in a simple, yet practical and effective way. Passai kata is something that I teach after the Pinans, so it really is more appropriate to begin to address the more dangerous and advanced principles. After Passai, I teach Naihanchi and I use that kata to transmit even more advanced principles. Lastly, of the core kata that I teach, Kusanku and Chinto are where I'll draw it all together and make the point that all kata are stand alone systems and that all principles that were separated actually apply to all. It's an understanding that can really help the students reinterpret what they have been taught and bring more life into the art. I don't know how effective it is to start with that. It certainly didn't work for me. I had to have a certain level of experience before I could really understand that point.

So, yeah, this discussion of principles is important, but the context of the system is important as well. Without the context, it's just a confused mess and very few students will have the ability to unravel it.

 

[K-man]

I have been practicing karate for a long time. I started in 5th grade and I only began to understand that all kata could be complete fighting systems about 10 years ago. I was told that many times before that, but I really didn't see it. I didn't understand it until I could actually start to see the applications and possibilities in the movements. This is important to keep in mind because I think we often take for granted how much we do know and how much our understanding of kata has evolved. Imagine yourself as a beginner again. The confusion, the practice, the body mechanics, they are all new and simple, less dangerous material is easier for them to grasp.

I see kata in much the same way. The way I teach kata breaks it down and doles out the knowledge in small doses so that students don't get overwhelmed. I start with the Pinan kata to get across the basics and approach the concepts of self defense in a simple, yet practical and effective way. Passai kata is something that I teach after the Pinans, so it really is more appropriate to begin to address the more dangerous and advanced principles. After Passai, I teach Naihanchi and I use that kata to transmit even more advanced principles. Lastly, of the core kata that I teach, Kusanku and Chinto are where I'll draw it all together and make the point that all kata are stand alone systems and that all principles that were separated actually apply to all. It's an understanding that can really help the students reinterpret what they have been taught and bring more life into the art. I don't know how effective it is to start with that. It certainly didn't work for me. I had to have a certain level of experience before I could really understand that point.

So, yeah, this discussion of principles is important, but the context of the system is important as well. Without the context, it's just a confused mess and very few students will have the ability to unravel it.

Looking back it would seem that information about the possible applications of kata in realistic fighting started about 20 years ago. Unfortunately I was just going with the flow at that time. I thought knowing kata was being able to perform lots of them. Now it's totally different. In some ways I think you are lucky to have the Pinan kata in your system as they were put together by Itosu as a teaching system. Yamaguchi tried to do the same with his Taikyoku kata but I don't think he had the understanding of kata that Funakoshi possessed. Those kata in Goju Kai were just for practising basics, nothing to do with practical applications. So, like you, my real martial art journey only began a bit over 10 years ago too. But fortunately the knowledge snowballs.

But, I don't have to imagine I am a beginner. I know first hand! Three years ago when I was introduced to Masaji Taira's ideas it would have been appropriate to have tied on a fresh white belt because, boy, was that an experience. If we are to keep learning we will always have times when we are beginners again. The important thing is never to close the mind. It can always benefit from a breath of fresh air. :asian:

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Moving the sequence along to "left spear hand, right punch, right inside out block, left punch, left inside out block." I notice some variation here. Some styles don't start with the left hand out prior to the punch. Some styles emphasize a "wrap up" for the "inside out block", while others merely bend their elbow from the punch position.

I know this is from Kanku/Kusanku/Kong Sang Kun, but it is the same movement in question:

Is this similar to a bunkai you use/teach, are there other uses that you teach/use?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Again, basic interpretation that I was taught: Left spearhand strike to the throat, right punch to the solar plexus, right inside out block, left punch to solar plexus, left inside out block. Later applications were similar to what Mr. Abernethy shows above. The first being that the "spearhand" was more of a block, which then grasps and pulls the attacker into your right punch, the "inside out block" then strikes the locked elbow of the grasped arm, thus turning the opponent. Opening the face or kidney area for the left hand punch, then finishing with a back fist (inside out block).

 

[dancingalone]

Again, basic interpretation that I was taught: Left spearhand strike to the throat, right punch to the solar plexus, right inside out block, left punch to solar plexus, left inside out block. Later applications were similar to what Mr. Abernethy shows above. The first being that the "spearhand" was more of a block, which then grasps and pulls the attacker into your right punch, the "inside out block" then strikes the locked elbow of the grasped arm, thus turning the opponent. Opening the face or kidney area for the left hand punch, then finishing with a back fist (inside out block).

The Shorin-ryu versions of this sequence in Passai and Kusanku are pretty dissimilar so no 'parent' applications are directly available. In Matsubayashi, the same spot in Passai was interpreted by my old teacher was hook hands, but it's fairly different from what you describe above. In Matsubayashi also, the sequence in Kusanku you mention is just a block with a 45 degree punch with each arm in succession, rather than spearhand, punch, block, punch, etc.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The Shorin-ryu versions of this sequence in Passai and Kusanku are pretty dissimilar so no 'parent' applications are directly available. In Matsubayashi, the same spot in Passai was interpreted by my old teacher was hook hands, but it's fairly different from what you describe above. In Matsubayashi also, the sequence in Kusanku you mention is just a block with a 45 degree punch with each arm in succession, rather than spearhand, punch, block, punch, etc.

I'll have to look at those segments from a Shorin-ryu perspective. It's not something I'm very familiar with. In our school, the movements in Bassai and Kong Sang Kun are identical.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

The Shorin-ryu versions of this sequence in Passai and Kusanku are pretty dissimilar so no 'parent' applications are directly available. In Matsubayashi, the same spot in Passai was interpreted by my old teacher was hook hands, but it's fairly different from what you describe above. In Matsubayashi also, the sequence in Kusanku you mention is just a block with a 45 degree punch with each arm in succession, rather than spearhand, punch, block, punch, etc.

"Hook hands" Is this similar to "sticky palm"? i.e. blocking> grabbing>twisting> pulling?

 

[dancingalone]

"Hook hands" Is this similar to "sticky palm"? i.e. blocking> grabbing>twisting> pulling?

Yes. There are a series of dual action 'inverted knifehands' with the lead hand where at the same time the rear hand ends up in a guarding position across the torso. When we worked applications, the ideas expressed invariably involved trapping the neck or shoulder or elbow joint while using the other arm to draw uke into yourself.

I guess the Iain Abernethy stuff above is the same stuff ultimately through expressed differently.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Moving right along, I think the knife hand block/strikes are self explanatory enough, as well as the grab and kick. But what about this? From 0:51-0:57

I was first told it was a block (like blocking a chair), throw the object off, then double hammer fist strike to the kidneys, then a jumping punch.

Later, I was shown that was a trapping of a double wrist grab, locking the wrists and elbows, and then a knee to the solar plexus, ending with a punch to the face.

 

[Cyriacus]

Moving right along, I think the knife hand block/strikes are self explanatory enough, as well as the grab and kick. But what about this? From 0:51-0:57

I was first told it was a block (like blocking a chair), throw the object off, then double hammer fist strike to the kidneys, then a jumping punch.

Later, I was shown that was a trapping of a double wrist grab, locking the wrists and elbows, and then a knee to the solar plexus, ending with a punch to the face.

I normally wouldnt comment, but im curious. Take these with a pinch of salt. This is just what i see, and im no expert.

The sequence I see:

Feet together, hands in > Hands come up > Step forward and bring both hands in an arcing motion outward then back in, followed by a lead straight punch/push.

The applications i see:

#1; Grab the bottom of someones shirt, pull it up over their head, bring both hands back (do the motion. in this theory with the step back it just holds said shirt over the persons head), drive them back and let go with your rear hand so that you can use it for something whilst your lead hand keeps control of their head.
#2; Holding a baton by the handle and by the tip with the handle in your right hand, step in and strike straight up under someones chin, let go with your left hand, grab them using your left hand, then finish up by pushing their head back using the baton whilst pulling their arm back toward your hip, like a push with the baton to keep them at a distance before you move on to doing something else.