Bassai/Passai/Pal Sek Variations from style to style and respective bunkai

[dancingalone]

I was first told it was a block (like blocking a chair), throw the object off, then double hammer fist strike to the kidneys, then a jumping punch.

Later, I was shown that was a trapping of a double wrist grab, locking the wrists and elbows, and then a knee to the solar plexus, ending with a punch to the face.

One application my Matsubayashi sensei taught for this was a basic collar tie up or clinch. The morote tsuki is the advancement of control over uke where you now have both arms in the v-shape of his frame. Then instead of a reverse punch (jumping punch) as in Shotokan or TSD, we ended up in a side punch from a horse stance before turning to the rear into manji uke or swastika block before finishing the sequence with a very obvious shoulder throw. Manji uke is the set up for the throw.

 

[dancingalone]

#1; Grab the bottom of someones shirt, pull it up over their head, bring both hands back (do the motion. in this theory with the step back it just holds said shirt over the persons head), drive them back and let go with your rear hand so that you can use it for something whilst your lead hand keeps control of their head.

Too funny, but I can see a method to the madness.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

Interesting ideas. I can see where both of these could be effective, particularly the shirt. I can't remember, do you/did you practice this form in your Taekwondo training? or do you practice the newer form sets? If you were taught this form, what were you told this movement was?

I'm merely trying to get an idea of what different styles/practitioners are taught as movements in a form that span a large variety of arts.

Thanks for your input!

 

[TimoS]

Manji uke is the set up for the throw.

The way I see it, the manjiuke part is totally separate from what was done previously and it is e.g. a release from when someone grabs you. The next move is just the counterattack part.

 

[Cyriacus]

Too funny, but I can see a method to the madness.

My full visualisation is dragging a shirt lip up over a head, pulling it tight and releasing one hand, all the while pushing the person back, then using the free hand to batter them with, for the sake of sticking to traditional sorts of things, forearm strikes to the head and neck, or possibly a Osoto Gari of some kind.

Id like to contort it into being grabbing the shirt around the shoulders, but thats stretching the interpretation a bit.
...iiiiif that didnt matter, id say bringing the hands up was grabbing the shirt just behind the shoulders, the step forward drove them back, and you pulled it up and out over their head. Then you held them with your front hand and got to work with the other. Same thing, just with a different grab. I didnt list that originally but because your hands dont really come towards you in the form, from what i can see.

 

[dancingalone]

The way I see it, the manjiuke part is totally separate from what was done previously and it is e.g. a release from when someone grabs you. The next move is just the counterattack part.

It could be. Is this the official Seibuken interpretation (does such a thing exist?)?

My sensei liked to have us consider any changes in application if we continued in the kata 1 more move or if we truncated by 1 move. The application I described was one of his favorites.

 

[TimoS]

Is this the official Seibuken interpretation

No, not really. I'm not actually sure what the "official" bunkai for that part is, but the scenario I described is more of a self defence application I've picked up from a friend

 

[Cyriacus]

Interesting ideas. I can see where both of these could be effective, particularly the shirt. I can't remember, do you/did you practice this form in your Taekwondo training? or do you practice the newer form sets? If you were taught this form, what were you told this movement was?

I'm merely trying to get an idea of what different styles/practitioners are taught as movements in a form that span a large variety of arts.

Thanks for your input!

Yay, i get to ramble a bit!

I originally got half way through Tul. After a couple of school transfers i started on Palgwe, then because of moving house im learning Taegeuk where i am now. One of the instructors here is all sorts of into interpreting applications, and ive recently hopped on board for the ride. One of the first things he covers is that were basically doing a significantly altered form of Karate, and that you shouldnt take the exact movements too literally because of how many variations of each move their are, but also that the same combinations and basic 'moves' can be found in different systems regardless, and that cant be a coincidence.

So what im doing here is taking individual 'moves' im familiar with, or similar ones, and looking without being too strict or exact at ways i know to use them, then applying the logic to the combination in that video.

Given that weve somehow turned every Taegeuk up to Sa Jang into the gentle art of attacking (I think theres been one single solitary defensive move, in Ee Jang?) people with various weapons and chokes from behind, i feel like nows as good a time as ever to be open to criticism or praise in a public (forum) format

I mostly listed off possible interpretations so that if you looked at different ways of doing the same form, you might see the ones i listed in them. Or you might not. But if you did, that might be interesting?

 

[SahBumNimRush]

To use the Japanese term, Manji Uke, since I don't know the Korean term.. . I like the Bubishi explanation as trapping a kick and throwing the opponent.

Similar to this:

 

[K-man]

Moving right along, I think the knife hand block/strikes are self explanatory enough, as well as the grab and kick. But what about this? From 0:51-0:57

I was first told it was a block (like blocking a chair), throw the object off, then double hammer fist strike to the kidneys, then a jumping punch.

Later, I was shown that was a trapping of a double wrist grab, locking the wrists and elbows, and then a knee to the solar plexus, ending with a punch to the face.

From my POV, I would go back to 0:47 and the kick. We call it Kansetsu geri or knee joint kick. At that point Nage turns 180 deg which signifies to me that the kick was into the back of the knee, turning Uke. With his back turned he cops two Shuto strikes to the back of the head. Instinctively, Uke would be lifting his arms to protect the head allowing Nage's hands to slip under the arms, lift up and apply a neck lock (Full Nelson). If that isn't working, Nage pushes him away and strikes on both sides of his head, to the ears. The next punch would be to the kidney.

:asian:

 

[SahBumNimRush]

From my POV, I would go back to 0:47 and the kick. We call it Kansetsu geri or knee joint kick. At that point Nage turns 180 deg which signifies to me that the kick was into the back of the knee, turning Uke. With his back turned he cops two Shuto strikes to the back of the head. Instinctively, Uke would be lifting his arms to protect the head allowing Nage's hands to slip under the arms, lift up and apply a neck lock (Full Nelson). If that isn't working, Nage pushes him away and strikes on both sides of his head, to the ears. The next punch would be to the kidney.

:asian:

That's interesting. I've never combined that many movements into a sequence before. Do you often combine 5+ steps into one application in the forms? I understand that you can have multiple applications depending on how many movements you combine together, but I've never combined this many steps. Usually I combine 3 steps maximum, as I see the applications as fight ending strikes. However, I am no expert in this, and there are many different concepts/ approaches to this, which is why I like these types of discussions!

 

[dancingalone]

That's interesting. I've never combined that many movements into a sequence before. Do you often combine 5+ steps into one application in the forms? I understand that you can have multiple applications depending on how many movements you combine together, but I've never combined this many steps. Usually I combine 3 steps maximum, as I see the applications as fight ending strikes. However, I am no expert in this, and there are many different concepts/ approaches to this, which is why I like these types of discussions!

K-Man will surely clarify fully for himself, but I think this can be an aspect of Taira Sensei's (from Goju-ryu) teachings. As I understand the concept, kata can be thought of as a continuum where each step can be assigned success or failure to varying degrees. A reasonably high level of success in a move will end the fight right then and then. Otherwise, it proceeds but regardless, you should be able to flow from move to move in the order specified in the kata as a response to ANYTHING your opponent throws at you.

Did I get that right, K-Man? By all means, speak up as I am very interested in this.

I've got to give K-Man some kudos. K-Man is partially responsible from his postings here on MT for me planning a trip to train with Taira Sensei later this year. I'm very interested in learning more about his thoughts on kata and bunkai as lineage wise I am very close to him, but he's clearly somewhat of a revolutionary in Goju-ryu right now.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

That is an interesting and helpful concept. I'm sure I will see more applications looking at my forms from this perspective.

 

[Noah_Legel]

I like K-Man's suggestion, although we don't do that kick in the versions of Passai that I practice, and I also like the suggestion of pulling someone's shirt over their head. For the double-high-block/double-hammerfist/punch sequence, I've learned several different applications. A basic one is that you are grabbed from behind and put into a full-nelson hold, then you either gouge their eyes or push back on your forehead with your hands to loosen their grip, then drop and drop your arms to break their grip, and then you grab one of their arms and use the "punch" to pull them into a rear elbow strike. It's not my favorite thing to do, but it does work unless there is a large size discrepancy. I also learned it as a joint lock (nikyo variant) used to counter a wrist grab, then you punch them after forcing them down with the lock. A fun and interesting one that my instructor is fond of is a defense against a shirt grab--you bring your arms up from underneath theirs, hook your thumbs under their jaw and lever their face backward and down, and from there the punch can be a strike to the throat or wrenching the head. Of course, this is all done in cat stances for us, so lead legs kicks, knee strikes, or sweeps can be incorporated as you see fit.

I have to say, I am most entertained by Funakoshi's application--I'm terribly fond of attackers who don't bring their hands back down after you lift them up :

 

[SahBumNimRush]

A basic one is that you are grabbed from behind and put into a full-nelson hold, then you either gouge their eyes or push back on your forehead with your hands to loosen their grip, then drop and drop your arms to break their grip, and then you grab one of their arms and use the "punch" to pull them into a rear elbow strike. It's not my favorite thing to do, but it does work unless there is a large size discrepancy.

I'll have to try this one out.. .

I also learned it as a joint lock (nikyo variant) used to counter a wrist grab, then you punch them after forcing them down with the lock.

I use this one, but since we use a "jump punch" there is a knee strike prior to the punch.

A fun and interesting one that my instructor is fond of is a defense against a shirt grab--you bring your arms up from underneath theirs, hook your thumbs under their jaw and lever their face backward and down, and from there the punch can be a strike to the throat or wrenching the head.

Sounds like that hurts!

I have to say, I am most entertained by Funakoshi's application--I'm terribly fond of attackers who don't bring their hands back down after you lift them up :

HAHA!

 

[K-man]

That's interesting. I've never combined that many movements into a sequence before. Do you often combine 5+ steps into one application in the forms? I understand that you can have multiple applications depending on how many movements you combine together, but I've never combined this many steps. Usually I combine 3 steps maximum, as I see the applications as fight ending strikes. However, I am no expert in this, and there are many different concepts/ approaches to this, which is why I like these types of discussions!

IMHO, a kata is a fighting system that runs from beginning to end. Now if you would have to use the whole kata, I would suggest that you need to go back to study the basics because each move by itself should be a 'finishing' move. So when someone asks what a particular move in a kata might be, I go back to the previous one or two moves to find the context. Sometimes that can be obvious or sometimes quite obscure. Kicks make it a lot easier to find a reference. If there is a turn, that also helps to find an explanation. In the Bassai example there was both. If a version doesn't have the kick, it doesn't matter. Just look at what you have.

Back to the example and the Shuto strike to the back of the head should have been all it took, so, the individual technique alone should be enough. But if under pressure and with an adrenalised opponent it isn't enough, you make up distance (second step) and hit him again. Iain Abernethy would suggest that you can keep using the same technique if it is not defended. (An example would be multiple hammer fist or elbow strikes.) by now our attacker should be on the ground but we haven't been able to get if over with. He raises his hands to protect his head, we slip under his arms and, to me, the raised hands are now on his head. That can break the neck. My understanding is that not only are these finishing moves but that those moves can be lethal. (All strikes are to Kyusho points.)

With that understanding, I look for the neck breaks of which there are many in most of the Goju kata. These don't necessarily have to be used that way as once the attacker is on the ground you can end it with a kick or other such technique. This type of bunkai will only work if you are controlling your opponent at close range. That way we can work on 'predictive' response. Generally that means, controlling with one hand and hitting with the other.

But to summarise. Yes, I always look at a number of techniques, but I look at each one to be able to do the job and the next as the 'go to' move if the first one fails. :asian:

 

[K-man]

K-Man will surely clarify fully for himself, but I think this can be an aspect of Taira Sensei's (from Goju-ryu) teachings. As I understand the concept, kata can be thought of as a continuum where each step can be assigned success or failure to varying degrees. A reasonably high level of success in a move will end the fight right then and then. Otherwise, it proceeds but regardless, you should be able to flow from move to move in the order specified in the kata as a response to ANYTHING your opponent throws at you.

Did I get that right, K-Man? By all means, speak up as I am very interested in this.

I couldn't have put it better!

I've got to give K-Man some kudos. K-Man is partially responsible from his postings here on MT for me planning a trip to train with Taira Sensei later this year. I'm very interested in learning more about his thoughts on kata and bunkai as lineage wise I am very close to him, but he's clearly somewhat of a revolutionary in Goju-ryu right now.

Thank you for the compliment. Yes, Taira's teaching is a breath of fresh air. I like to think of it that he has given us the key to the pantry. He has shown us how to make a cup cake and encouraged us to find out for ourselves how to make the wedding cake. :asian:

 

[Noah_Legel]

I'll have to try this one out.. .

One addition I forgot to mention is that you can also pry their fingers off your head and lock them with the double-hammerfist movement, but I hate finger locks

I use this one, but since we use a "jump punch" there is a knee strike prior to the punch.

We consider cat stances to be placeholders for a lead leg kick, knee strike, or sweep, so we often would do the same as you

Sounds like that hurts!

Yeah, it feels pretty terrible if it's done correctly. It takes practice to get the lever action down, though--just pushing doesn't do much.