Bar-Brawl Evangelism. Come Join In...

[green meanie]

Just out of curiosity, how old are the participants in this thread? I'm 39.

A fair question. I'm 37.

 

[green meanie]

I'm sorry, I forgot to list my str33t creds: I'm an ex-Marine...

There's no such thing. Once a Marine, ALWAYS a Marine. :asian:

 

[7starmantis]

no

Care to eleborate?

 

[painstain]

27 on the fourth

 

[MartialIntent]

I'm no art afficianado but I know a little and yeah it's a tired and lame old cliche, but I know what I like. I've been round most of the major galleries here in Britain and on the continent and if pushed I reckon I could make a half-decent attempt at spotting a real Van Gogh from a good counterfeit. I'm sure you all know, the real Van Gogh has passion in every stroke; it's reworked agonizingly to inspired perfection; one can almost feel the pain of the man as he deftly moved the oils around the canvas in an impassioned and desperate attempt to *give*; to produce and create a work that is a vehicle to spread a message; to provide and enrich our overall knowledge and appreciation of the subject. That is the *true* art and even if the counterfeit is an admirable copy, that's all it is, that's all it can ever be. There is no intent, there is no motive in it except that the "artist" is on the trail of the denaro. It's flat and there's no desire to give; to create.

[oh, feel free to tune out anytime btw, hehe ]

It's funny though, that kind of artistic discernment between the true artist and the counterfeit doesn't seem quite so difficult here in this thread. In fact, if you ask me, it's a no brainer here to discern the true artists from the frauds and the charlatans. Now take that how you will. Seek anguished offense if you like. Of course, if you have taken offense, well, there's an implication there too I guess . Honestly, you've got me a little apathetic to it at this stage, hehe.

But one can spot the true artists in this particular type of discussion simply by their modus operandi. The *true* artist, whether they do it consciously or without aforethought, is seeking to create, and by creating, expands the knowledge both in themselves and in others. And it's apparent who here is doing that. And from these true artists [and there are a great many here on MT and yep, got some of you on this here thread also] and from these, I've picked up quite a bit myself and I can only assume others have also in terms of information and in terms of concepts and ideas that in turn spark other ideas. And that all adds to the enrichment of knowledge on this particular concept. Yeah, I'm selfish, you got me there - I doubt I'd have paid my few bucks if I wasn't actually learning anything that I could take away and make use of.

So I'd just like to take this opportunity to honestly and sincerely thank you, the genuine, honest and true martial artists who have posted here on this thread, not gratuitously to inflate yourself but rather in the honest spirit that true martial artists display all the time.

If that sounds a bit pretentious; a bit arty-farty; or you just don't understand what I'm talking about, well maybe you just gotta accept the fact then that I ain't talking to *you*. But for you there *is* hope in salvation! There's hope you'll realize you ain't remotely in that category of either being, or aspiring to a be, a true martial artist, and maybe you'll think a little, heck come back revisit the initial post in this thread, maybe it'll make more sense to you and my intent won't pass you by so easily next time Until that day, I recommend they set aside a little room for you all here in MT mansions; maybe toss in some street equipment: a few bottles, some blades, handgun, crossbow, shuriken, maglite, whatever, LOL. And you can be at liberty to go there anytime you like with each other and well... do whatever it is you people do, hehe

Nah, that's all just idle banter. Lighten up

Respects to all true martial artists!

 

[Kensai]

I'm no art afficianado but I know a little and yeah it's a tired and lame old cliche, but I know what I like. I've been round most of the major galleries here in Britain and on the continent and if pushed I reckon I could make a half-decent attempt at spotting a real Van Gogh from a good counterfeit. I'm sure you all know, the real Van Gogh has passion in every stroke; it's reworked agonizingly to inspired perfection; one can almost feel the pain of the man as he deftly moved the oils around the canvas in an impassioned and desperate attempt to *give*; to produce and create a work that is a vehicle to spread a message; to provide and enrich our overall knowledge and appreciation of the subject. That is the *true* art and even if the counterfeit is an admirable copy, that's all it is, that's all it can ever be. There is no intent, there is no motive in it except that the "artist" is on the trail of the denaro. It's flat and there's no desire to give; to create.

[oh, feel free to tune out anytime btw, hehe ]

It's funny though, that kind of artistic discernment between the true artist and the counterfeit doesn't seem quite so difficult here in this thread. In fact, if you ask me, it's a no brainer here to discern the true artists from the frauds and the charlatans. Now take that how you will. Seek anguished offense if you like. Of course, if you have taken offense, well, there's an implication there too I guess . Honestly, you've got me a little apathetic to it at this stage, hehe.

But one can spot the true artists in this particular type of discussion simply by their modus operandi. The *true* artist, whether they do it consciously or without aforethought, is seeking to create, and by creating, expands the knowledge both in themselves and in others. And it's apparent who here is doing that. And from these true artists [and there are a great many here on MT and yep, got some of you on this here thread also] and from these, I've picked up quite a bit myself and I can only assume others have also in terms of information and in terms of concepts and ideas that in turn spark other ideas. And that all adds to the enrichment of knowledge on this particular concept. Yeah, I'm selfish, you got me there - I doubt I'd have paid my few bucks if I wasn't actually learning anything that I could take away and make use of.

So I'd just like to take this opportunity to honestly and sincerely thank you, the genuine, honest and true martial artists who have posted here on this thread, not gratuitously to inflate yourself but rather in the honest spirit that true martial artists display all the time.

If that sounds a bit pretentious; a bit arty-farty; or you just don't understand what I'm talking about, well maybe you just gotta accept the fact then that I ain't talking to *you*. But for you there *is* hope in salvation! There's hope you'll realize you ain't remotely in that category of either being, or aspiring to a be, a true martial artist, and maybe you'll think a little, heck come back revisit the initial post in this thread, maybe it'll make more sense to you and my intent won't pass you by so easily next time Until that day, I recommend they set aside a little room for you all here in MT mansions; maybe toss in some street equipment: a few bottles, some blades, handgun, crossbow, shuriken, maglite, whatever, LOL. And you can be at liberty to go there anytime you like with each other and well... do whatever it is you people do, hehe

Nah, that's all just idle banter. Lighten up

Respects to all true martial artists!

Lol... Who are we to judge who's a true MA'tist or not. Too many ego's, not enough balance. Still liked your posts though. :asian:

 

[MJS]

I'm happy to let my beautiful thread drift into some inane low-mileage discussion regarding who's whacked the most people; whose trunk has seen the most bodybags or whatever, but if I could just take a minute and ask potential readers or posters to relax, find a space where no one's testing how high they can pi$$ up the wall and just take a breath.

I had a nice reply all typed out, but lost it all due to a glitch. Here goes again.

I don't think that the thread is too far off course, although some posts have been rather 'interesting'

See, the original premise of this thread arose from what I feel is a particular inadequacy within SD training in the arts. It's not directed at any particular art let alone any particular individual's training methodology. The issue I have is that in my experience, few [being different from none] martial arts actively train for the *reality* of SD. The reality being different from the theory and practise-hall training by virtue of one simple difference: the intent.

Yes, there is a big difference, IMO, but some arts may not be seperating the differences.

Sparring on the mats, your opponent is trying to score points or get a KO, depending upon your art and style. Though it's not generally the case, nor is it best practice, that doesn't preclude the idea that they may actually be trying to put you out of commission altogether, however, you still defend yourself both defensively and offensively to a level **WHICH IS APPROPRIATE FOR THE MATS**. Now, that's a different beast altogether from defending yourself against an attacker intent on serious abuse or mortal damage. And yeah, I know it's a statistical improbability for most, but we're not all gamblers with these things which is why many [granted, not all] do MA in the first instance.

Agreed.

My issue is that there is an assumption that what works in training will *automatically* translate to a defense situation which occurs outside the dojo. I'm not saying there's no relevance in training the way we're training [otherwise I'd not be doing an art at all], but what I'm saying is that this assumption of automatic translation instills in us a sense of complacency that dangerously assures us if we run into trouble we'll automatically be covered, no sweat, no fear, take 'em all on. And that's a worry for me and I try never to send anyone out of the dojo with that belief, in fact I try my utmost to persuade students to the contrary. For me, training's all well and good but it is what it is - dojo theory. My advice for any of my students is not to assume their Aikido will see them through in a mortally dangerous situation, no matter what degree they are, no matter how advanced they are and no matter how many rounds of randori they've had, it doesn't matter - there should be *no* assumptions.

IMO, that all comes down to how one gears their training. Anything has the potential to work, but how are we training it? Is our training partner really trying to hit us or are they stopping their attack just short enough so we really don't even have to move? Are they giving us some pressure on our neck, having their hands wrapped firmly around, or are they giving us a shoulder massage? IMO, we need to push ourselves a bit when we train.

Now I agree with a great deal of what's been presented subsequent to HS resurrecting this thread but for me at least, the central question that I think has been missed is how within our SD practices, do we reconcile a need to train reality **without** actually trying to kill our training partner or potentially getting killed in the act of training for it. Sound silly? Well, as has been eloquently stated already, there's little substitute for experience, but personally it's an experience I've got but am not happy to go seek out, hence the contrived scenario I tried to design at the initial post which is lost in time somewhere now.

Through scenario drills, we can make our training feel real, while still having that element of safety. Now, I could use a real knife to see if my partern can defend himself, but ultimately, he may only get one shot at it. In the real world thats all he may get, but do I really want to stab my attacker? So, we use markers, no lie blades, etc. to show those 'cuts' and 'slashes' but we're not really killing them, so to speak. We need to put our partner in the proper mindset. If that means yelling, swearing at them, talking bad about a loved one, and getting right in their face, then thats what we need to do. We need to make them feel, mentally and physically, like we want to cause them harm.

I mean, sit through any training course at work and you're expected, once it's complete, to get out and get your sleeves rolled up. Where I work, I never get training unless it was for a *very* specific application. Nobody would pay for me to train needlessly in an expertise that I wasn't actually gonna use, that's foolish economics and a waste of resources and moreover I'd feel personally it was a waste of my own time.

Those courses provide us with the tools to perform our job. They tell us how to best use those tools, but in the end, it all comes down to how we apply that skill. They're giving us a foundation that we need to build off of.

Again, don't make the mistake of thinking I'm saying MA training has no merit. I mean, people train for all kinds of reasons, SD being just one. But again for the record, training SD techniques in our arts, while an amazing thing in its own right and which can certainly assist us greatly when it's needed for real, does not *automatically* translate from the mats to this godforsaken "streets" place.

Agreed.

I'm not confident that there's any mileage remaining in this thread. I would have been happy to lay it to rest when it came to a natural close some time ago. However, for what it's worth, the question I was trying to raise was how can we train reality situations [where someone has malicious intent] *and* at the same time stay safe? It's an utterly perverse thought that we'd kill ourselves trying to get knowledge that would help us to stay alive. So can it be done? Can a safe, practical, working mirror for reality situations ever be adequately trained? Who's got brains as well as brass knuckles? Bring it on

Respects!

I think so life can still be found in this thread.

Thank you for a very thought provoking discussion.:asian:

Mike

 

[Xue Sheng]

Care to eleborate?

So can it be done? Can a safe, practical, working mirror for reality situations ever be adequately trained?

No matter what you train whether it be MA or Boot camp, or Law enforcement or anything else you can never be ready for all contingencies and there are unlimited possibilities in a real work situation. You can only be better trained than the man or women that has little or no training. And with that being said let me change my "no" to "maybe" since I see I did not take into account the word "adequately "

But unless the other guy, in a training situation, coming at you is willing to take that extra step to actually try to do you serious bodily injury, no holds bared, you cannot mirror reality and that is certainly not practical and safe.

At best you can train and be better prepared than the next guy.

Also I had posted previously here, and admittedly at the wrong point in the post, MA training is more than learning how to fight, it is learning how and when not to as well. Ego be damned if I can run away and not hurt someone else or be hurt myself I will. Also I believe that training MA give a person a bit of an edge as to knowing about his or her surroundings and therefore being able to avoid a fight.

It's funny though, that kind of artistic discernment between the true artist and the counterfeit doesn't seem quite so difficult here in this thread. In fact, if you ask me, it's a no brainer here to discern the true artists from the frauds and the charlatans. Now take that how you will. Seek anguished offense if you like. Of course, if you have taken offense, well, there's an implication there too I guess . Honestly, you've got me a little apathetic to it at this stage, hehe.

If this gets me labeled a Charlatan because I do not jump with both feet into the abyss than so be it, I know my training I know my background and I know my experience in these situation and I have no need to prove that to anyone. Nor am I insulted by the inference I have been down this road before and I understand the tactic all to well.

 

[7starmantis]

No matter what you train whether it be MA or Boot camp, or Law enforcement or anything else you can never be ready for all contingencies and there are unlimited possibilities in a real work situation. You can only be better trained than the man or women that has little or no training. And with that being said let me change my "no" to "maybe" since I see I did not take into account the word "adequately "

I agree. Neither training nor "streetfighting" experience can make you ready for all contingencies. So that gap remains forever. We will allways be at a disadvantage to being attacked....and thus why its termed self defense. Your correct again about being better trained, and I'll even add to that in better shape. Conditioning is a huge part of fighting and I've seen guys with skill far beyond their opponent get ripped apart because the opponent was in better shape and was conditioned properly. Train hard, pray you will never use your training, and at the same time expect to use it on everyone....that about right?

But unless the other guy, in a training situation, coming at you is willing to take that extra step to actually try to do you serious bodily injury, no holds bared, you cannot mirror reality and that is certainly not practical and safe.

That is done more often than most people want to realize. One thing I want to also say is that too much emphasis is being placed on "intent" in these types of scenarios. My training partner may not have the intent to really kill me, but catching his full power/speed hook to the noggin will still knock me down/out. Whats the difference in that same scenario from some attacker on the street? Does the intent really change the dynamics of the situation? See, my training partern puts in hours a day to make his hook (in this scenario) faster, stronger, more powerful, more precise, and less defensible (thats a word now). I would rather, if I had to choose, take the punch from the guy on the street than him anyday. However I would really just not take either.....what I'm saying is that while intent may differ, training can cover these situations, these "intents" in a relatively safe manner. Can it get you ready to successfully take on any situation and defeat it in 30 seconds flat? Of course not, but it can get you ready to use your body and skill to protect yourself, in any situation. I guess we need to start being realistic in our discussion of "success". Going home alive is success in my book, not pulling off that nice looking combo and knocking the guy out.

At best you can train and be better prepared than the next guy.

Completely Agree!!

Also I had posted previously here, and admittedly at the wrong point in the post, MA training is more than learning how to fight, it is learning how and when not to as well. Ego be damned if I can run away and not hurt someone else or be hurt myself I will. Also I believe that training MA give a person a bit of an edge as to knowing about his or her surroundings and therefore being able to avoid a fight.

Again, good post, I always say ego is the numberr one killer off good training (and good kung fu for that matter).

7sm

 

[Xue Sheng]

Completely Agree!!

Yes I believe we do.

 

[Kreth]

There's no such thing. Once a Marine, ALWAYS a Marine. :asian:

Admin sep after 3 yrs, 7 months; due to a bad habit of telling people when they were being dumbasses, regardless of what they had on their collar... :lol: Just thought I should clarify, since others have been known to make military claims that are fraudulent.

Back to the topic (sort of): Interesting that some of the biggest mouthpieces on this thread are very quiet suddenly...

 

[Xue Sheng]

And I almost forgot

Kreth

I'm greater than 40 less than 50 never in the military per say but I am a Navy brat.

XS

 

[Kreth]

I'm greater than 40 less than 50

:lol:

 

[Hand Sword]

Admin sep after 3 yrs, 7 months; due to a bad habit of telling people when they were being dumbasses, regardless of what they had on their collar... :lol: Just thought I should clarify, since others have been known to make military claims that are fraudulent.

Back to the topic (sort of): Interesting that some of the biggest mouthpieces on this thread are very quiet suddenly...

First, yep, bad habit indeed. At least you got released. In the past, you would have been hanged or got the firing squad.

Second, I didn't mean to sound annoying and be a big mouthpiece here. Sorry...

 

[ronin_warrior_j]

Ive studied alot of martial arts and some are best left in the point sparring/ tournament format because thats what they were built for is sport. I would stack my 15 years of training in 18 different martial arts up against any bar fighter. I would prefer not to fight in such a situation because ive woken up in the drunk tank before in my younger years and its not fun. But if someone takes me to that magical place also know as "melt down" ill gladly push there face in.

 

[Kreth]

Second, I didn't mean to sound annoying and be a big mouthpiece here. Sorry...

I think if people note who hasn't posted in this thread since I asked my question about age, and compare that to who was making the most noise about the r34l str33t, they can draw their own conclusions (and it wasn't you, HS)...
In my experience, the guys who are legit badasses don't make a lot of noise about it. They just do their thing when necessary.

 

[crushing]

In my experience, the guys who are legit badasses don't make a lot of noise about it. They just do their thing when necessary.

Suddenly, the movie Stir Crazy comes to mind.

"Yea, that's right! That's right! We bad!"

 

[Kreth]

Suddenly, the movie Stir Crazy comes to mind.

"Yea, that's right! That's right! We bad!"

Pryor and Wilder at their absolute best! :lol:

 

[shesulsa]

Pryor and Wilder at their absolute best! :lol:

Totally!!

"You a short sombitch, ain'tcha?"
"Yes, sir, I'm a short sombitch. My mother was short too. And my daddy was short and we couldn't even sing."

:lfao:

 

[Jenna]

Back to the topic (sort of): Interesting that some of the biggest mouthpieces on this thread are very quiet suddenly...

Oh aye mister Kreth.. so its ME youre talking bout? Thats slander that is.. ..or is it libel? :idunno: Ahh but why am I asking you .. you.. you scurrilous scallywag stirring up troubleand shaking the wasp nests here..leave the critters ALONE they are harmless up under the eaves of this old desolate building here..

but you have slandered my good name that is unforgiveable.. :whip:

in Hong Kong.. you would be dead ..

well.. we will see bout that.. bring trouble to the house of the Grandmaster of Pillows would you? Ha! your demise will be hasty my friend and no mistake! Summary justice you shall have.. but it will not be swift.. it will be protracted and painful.. live by the pillow.. die by the pillow..


JENNA NOTE: PLEASE KEEP THE CONVERSATIONS RESPECTFUL.. OTHERWISE I WILL BE ALL OVER ALL YALL LIKE AN UNDIAGNOSABLE RASH!
Jenna from the block