Ba Gua and Wing Chun

[Nobody Important]

What years are we talking about?

Is there a video of this someplace?

Leung Tien Chiu was born in 1878 & died in 1972. He was taught Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful/Mongoose Hands) by Leung Sil Jong. There is no verified video of this art I am aware of. I would guesstimate that Leung Sil Jong was born in 1820s. It is speculation as to who he learned under, it is presumed that he learned this method from, whom would later be considered, the founder of Choy Gar. It is said to come from the Choy family & that the original name is Se Ying Diu Sau the forerunner of Choy family boxing. Leung Bok Chou is said to have been a student of the Choy family as well, prior to learning Wing Chun. Time frames fit.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Leung Tien Chiu was born in 1878 & died in 1972. He was taught Se Ying Diu Sau (Snake Form Artful/Mongoose Hands) by Leung Sil Jong. There is no verified video of this art I am aware of. I would guesstimate that Leung Sil Jong was born in 1820s. It is speculation as to who he learned under, it is presumed that he learned this method from, whom would later be considered, the founder of Choy Gar. It is said to come from the Choy family & that the original name is Se Ying Diu Sau the forerunner of Choy family boxing. Leung Bok Chou is said to have been a student of the Choy family as well, prior to learning Wing Chun. Time frames fit.

This article says Leung Sil Jong was a Shaolin Monk. Of course it is only one article with no verification. But if he was a Monk from Shaolin, they are big on animal forms there. Could be where the snake comes from and possibly has no link at all to Baguazhang

 

[oaktree]

My opinion of wing chun it's about controlling the center line. Or the principle the shortest distance is a straight line.

Baguazhang is not about engaging on the center line but moving around the center line or the center line is always in rotation.

For example punching straight lead I want to move off the center line and attack at your blind spot at an angle, I want to pivot behind you but the main principle is not keeping the engagement in that center line. Can we as Baguazhang practitioners go straight on the center line yes, and liang first palm does a great example of going straight in on the center line but the palm changes is deceptive and changes from left lead straight to a hidden right under the elbow at 45 degree.

I teach this as a hidden knife after the person goes to dodge my lead punch .

 

[Nobody Important]

This article says Leung Sil Jong was a Shaolin Monk. Of course it is only one article with no verification. But if he was a Monk from Shaolin, they are big on animal forms there. Could be where the snake comes from and possibly has no link at all to Baguazhang

That is a popular tale, but not true. Leung Sil Jong was a custodian of Law Ding village, it is said he learned from a Siu Lam monk. In this reference "monk" is a loose term. It is suspected Leung Sil Jong studied under Choy Gau Yee, patriarch of Choy Gar and supposed student of Siu Lam.

 

[Nobody Important]

This also has to be viewed from a mainland Wing Chun perspective & and not from a Yip Man Wing Chun perspective. They are two very different approaches. Mainland Wing Chun has much more in common with Siu Lam arts than Yip Man. Also this possible connection, IMO, has more to do with footwork than palms and arms. Many southern CMA's use Bagua, this doesn't necessarily mean Bagua Zhang.

 

[oaktree]

I would be interested to know what do you regard using Bagua in South part in reference to? I know fu style Baguazhang is primarily in Guangzhou area.

 

[Nobody Important]

I would be interested to know what do you regard using Bagua in South part in reference to? I know fu style Baguazhang is primarily in Guangzhou area.

Several southern arts use Bagua theory. Some refer to it as stepping, handwork etc. Arts like Hung Gar, Choy Lay Fut, Tibetan White Crane, Fut Gar etc. No relation necessarily to Bagua Zhang of the north. Western CMA's also use Bagua theory, Lung Ta of Tibet even uses the terms muddy hand & muddy feet while circle walking, but it's not the same as Bagua Zhang from Dong Hai Chuan.

 

[oaktree]

Do they use the term Bagua?
I would think there would be similarities in styles but what I am curious is are they using same theory and using same terminology.
I guess if from South they would use Cantonese so I am interested to hear about it more.

 

[Nobody Important]

Do they use the term Bagua?
I would think there would be similarities in styles but what I am curious is are they using same theory and using same terminology.
I guess if from South they would use Cantonese so I am interested to hear about it more.

Yes same term but in Cantonese, Baat Gwa. I do not know Bagua Zhang so cannot speak to that. Southern Bagua methods vary, typically instead of walking a circle from outside parimeter and moving in, they are the center and move out in one of the 8 directions. Palm techniques in southern CMA are usually referred to as butterfly palms, flying crane hands, fish hands, devil hands, Buddha palms etc. Southern Bagua methods are nearly opposite of northern, from my limited understanding, inside out instead of outside in. It's about the motherline and centerline. Southern Bagua stepping encompasses plum blossom aka: 5 elements, 4 points & 8 directions. Much of this varies from system to system same as the hands, consistency and naming convention don't necessarily go hand in hand.

 

[Nobody Important]

Some Choy Lay Fut Bagua & Buddha Palm

 

[Nobody Important]

This is Siu Lam Kung Fu from Wong Tim Yuen a student of Leung Tien Chiu. These early Fut Gar sets contain some of the Se Ying Diu Sau material mixed in.

 

[oaktree]

What makes those videos Bagua? Do they follow the Bagua and I Ching theory?
They look nothing like any family style of Baguazhang there is no internal energy it's all external.

 

[Nobody Important]

What makes those videos Bagua? Do they follow the Bagua and I Ching theory?
They look nothing like any family style of Baguazhang there is no internal energy it's all external.

I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.

It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.

I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.

 

[Xue Sheng]

What makes those videos Bagua? Do they follow the Bagua and I Ching theory?
They look nothing like any family style of Baguazhang there is no internal energy it's all external.

It is likely based on this

Not this

And likely has as much to do with Baguazhang (which is a Northern style, and any versions of Baguazhang done in the south all come from this origin,.) as Taiji Mantis has to do with Taijiquan

 

[Xue Sheng]

I said it isn't the same as Northern Bagua Zhang. You can't compare an apple to a pineapple or a pine cone to a pineapple and expect it to be what you're familiar with. Southern Bagua starts at a central point and works outwards.

It's always been relayed to me that Bagua has a close association with the snake and Taiji the crane. These do not necessarily mean the arts that have come to be named after Bagua & Taiji, but the theory itself. I have yet to see any two versions of Bagua, Taiji or Wu Xing theory be explained and interpreted the same.

I'm not a Choy Lay Fut practitioner so I won't comment on any similarities or not. I only posted them for reference of southern Bagua and palm methods.

So to clarify you are saying it is based on 'The Bagua' not based on 'Baguazhang'

 

[Nobody Important]

So to clarify you are saying it is based on 'The Bagua' not based on 'Baguazhang'

Yes, what's probably causing confusion for some is that I made reference to this snake system having some connection to Bagua, but didn't know if it was bagua Zhang or just Bagua. So I've spoken to both, but when I talk of southern Bagua it is to the theory not the northern system. As I stated earlier it is most likely in reference to a stepping method unrelated to the northern art. It is confusing because of like terms, completely unrelated and used differently though.

 

[Nobody Important]

Another Leung Tien Chiu Fut Gar branch, this video presents a better example of the Se Ying Diu Sau elements of Fut Gar. Much more Bagua and snake representation.

 

[Nobody Important]

This form is as close as I could find as to what the Se Ying Diu Sau style looks like as best I can remember.

Lots of Wing Chun like stuff in here.

 

[Juany118]

My opinion of wing chun it's about controlling the center line. Or the principle the shortest distance is a straight line.

Baguazhang is not about engaging on the center line but moving around the center line or the center line is always in rotation.

For example punching straight lead I want to move off the center line and attack at your blind spot at an angle, I want to pivot behind you but the main principle is not keeping the engagement in that center line...

First I think there is a misconception of what the Wing Chun centerline is. I actually joke sometimes that they used one term to describe three different things in order to confuse people . I have my centerline (shove a rod down the center of my head to the ground), my centerline plane (the straight line to my opponent), my opponent's centerline, same as mine. As such I can attack my opponent's centerline from their front, flank, rear etc. My centerline plane does NOT have to meet my opponents. As a matter of fact it is better that it doesn't.

To ram this point home, in my school of Wing Chun my job/goal is to try and fight on the "blind side" so I am constantly trying to stay on the flank of my opponent much the same as you explain. Now I will get there via stepping in, but at an angle, but I am always trying to maintain a position where my opponent, if he wants to attack me with both hands, has to either reach across his body with his opposite hand OR constantly reorient, which if I am doing my job correctly he will have a great deal of trouble doing.

 

[Juany118]

Nvm